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On September 16 2011 07:09 MMello wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 07:04 ZAiNs wrote:I wish Blizzard would use this strategy for Protoss, they still have time to put back in Amulet  . Amulet was OP and anti-skill though. Good riddance. That said they removed 2 of our upgrades completely, which is just sad. I want more upgrades for stuff! No words for how bad you are We needed Amulet to survive mid / late game PvT... drops all over the place raping face lol lets take away the only thing protoss uses to defend.. Because we all know cannons fucking suck PvT
I'm Protoss. I hate Terran (ask a mod if you want  ). Amulet encouraged lazy, bad, uninteresting play. "oh, I fucked up and lost my 3 templar? I'll just warp in 3 more". Keeping them alive via smart positioning and warp prisms makes for a much better game.
Protoss may well need some help in lategame pvt, but it shouldn't come from stronger templar because they are fine.
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On September 16 2011 07:09 MMello wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 07:04 ZAiNs wrote:I wish Blizzard would use this strategy for Protoss, they still have time to put back in Amulet . Amulet was OP and anti-skill though. Good riddance. That said they removed 2 of our upgrades completely, which is just sad. I want more upgrades for stuff! No words for how bad you are
Drop
Forget to save probes.
Warp templar
Storm it trice before nexus loses 25% shield.
Chrono nexii.
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On September 16 2011 07:10 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:06 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 07:02 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:59 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 06:56 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:54 QTIP. wrote:On September 16 2011 06:52 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:51 Pwnographics wrote:On September 16 2011 06:46 Ammanas wrote:On September 16 2011 06:33 Pwnographics wrote:
[quote]
And stats do lie, if they want a good set of statistics they should exclude all games except grandmaster league/tournament results. No one but Blizzard cares if protoss has a 90% win rate in gold league and maybe some fucking scrubs in gold league. I am pretty sure, they stated on numerous occasions, that this is exactly what they are doing. Balancing the game around the best players. Even I am smart enough to not take any statistics from, say, bronze league seriously. Which is why the stats lie, because they take in account of gold league scrubs. No they don't. "We increased Zealot build time because we found Proxy 2-Gate to be too powerful at the silver-level of play." Unfortunately... they do. T_T Wasn't that like...a year ago? They may have back then but every statistic I have seen Blizzard provide for a long time has been either from tournament results or grandmaster league. They also recently tested reverting the zealot nerf + buffing stalker build time while they changed warpgates but they decided not to, so apparently the zealot nerf is working as intended. I agree, it was a while ago, and perhaps it has worked out completely fine. However, they do balance for various skill levels (read as: low skill) as well as game types. For example, they explained that the Reaper nerf was centered around 2v2 play. There is more to it in the patch notes than that: Zealot rushes are currently too powerful at various skill levels, particularly those that rely on rapidly assaulting an enemy base from nearby "proxy" gateways. We feel the window players have to scout for and fend off this rush is too small. We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost. It doesn't say silver league either, it says various skill levels, and gives some other reasons behind the change. If it was solely to nerf two gates as well there would be no reason to make the cooldown on warpgates higher as well. The reaper was originally nerfed for 5 rax reaper, then I believe nerfed again and 2v2 was part of it but you are just looking at one reason for the nerf. They nerfed it for more than 2v2. True: To clarify, David Kim specified Silver league at the Balance Panel Discussion - Blizzcon 2010. Yes, the secondary nerf about dumping minerals too quickly is another reason. I am not claiming that Blizzard balances equally for all skill levels, I'm simply responding to your comment about them not even considering the balance at "gold-level play". Why would he specify silver league in particular? Why not gold, bronze, etc? That's weird wording from him and Blizzard in general. You're right but that is one instance a long time ago where they mentioned the major reason was for lower league but it still had an obvious implication on balance throughout the entire game that has made it more balanced than the previous 23 second build time. Maybe I'm just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here that their main reason behind a big balance change was proxy two gates.
I think he specified Silver league because it was a particularly popular strategy for Silver-league Protoss players used to great effect at that time. (This came up during the Q+A session I believe: He didn't just say it out of the blue, a question was posed to him)
He went into a bunch of weird specifics at Blizzcon. For example, he explained the Void Ray nerf as an "email from Maka Prime showing me how Void Rays could be abused." As well all know, Maka plays Terran. o.o
I agree with you. We should give them the benefit of the doubt that they are balancing in a fair way, weighting pro results and low-level results in a reasonable manner. Otherwise, what are Pro's playing this for?
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On September 16 2011 07:14 aWildRATTATA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:09 MMello wrote:On September 16 2011 07:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 07:04 ZAiNs wrote:I wish Blizzard would use this strategy for Protoss, they still have time to put back in Amulet . Amulet was OP and anti-skill though. Good riddance. That said they removed 2 of our upgrades completely, which is just sad. I want more upgrades for stuff! No words for how bad you are Drop Forget to save probes. Warp templar Storm it trice before nexus loses 25% shield. Chrono nexii.
Storms aren't a guaranteed 80 damage. You're lucky if you get half of that.
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On September 16 2011 07:16 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:14 aWildRATTATA wrote:On September 16 2011 07:09 MMello wrote:On September 16 2011 07:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 07:04 ZAiNs wrote:I wish Blizzard would use this strategy for Protoss, they still have time to put back in Amulet . Amulet was OP and anti-skill though. Good riddance. That said they removed 2 of our upgrades completely, which is just sad. I want more upgrades for stuff! No words for how bad you are Drop Forget to save probes. Warp templar Storm it trice before nexus loses 25% shield. Chrono nexii. Storms aren't a guaranteed 80 damage. You're lucky if you get half of that.
Guaranteed 20 damage assuming you don't misclick.
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Figures just like fungal not affecting air units got reverted by Zerg qq so does np. I wonder why no other options were looked at for the Templar before they just removed the amulet. It's pretty clear how the races are treated- terran is blizzards pride and joy and Zerg is the fully grown adult that blizzards feels the need to still baby and Protoss is the middle child no one gives a shit about
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On September 16 2011 07:11 R3N wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:04 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 07:02 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:45 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:37 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:24 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:21 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:16 Heavenly wrote:On September 16 2011 06:13 R3N wrote:On September 16 2011 06:01 Heavenly wrote:
[quote]
Uh, that's not what he said? He said that you have more resources which makes it easier to get more infestors. They're not cheaper but if you're on three bases worth of gas to my two bases worth of gas you can get more gas units than I can.
And man, it is becoming annoying hearing all the whining about deathballs still. There have been so many high level games of zergs destroying "deathballs" easily, of zerg beating protoss while on equal bases, etc. Watch replays, compare positioning, tech, upgrades, and army value, and you'll understand why you lost the game opposed to "DEATHBALL IS STRONG".
...... As I said, I'm zerg and not protoss. My units aren't ½ as efficient as yours. That's why I get access to more bases faster than you can. Zerg can't win any half-decent ZvP on equal bases. One might think people figure that out by now.... Here, I'll make ridiculous unfounded statements too: Protoss units are not cost-effective versus zerg. If you prove your statement I'll prove mine. You're also going on a completely different tangent of the original statement that you'll have more infestors than templar. Proven my statement? So you really do believe protoss units are to be as easily massed as zerg? I think you need to enlighten the entire starcraft community and ofc, blizzard about this gospel of truth. As the other way 'round is widely accepted by everyone but you. Also we were talking about gas efficient and you came in straying shit about archons and how roaches beat them. What is the first part even talking about? What? I never said anything remotely like that. And watch any GSL ZvP. Z destroys P utterly in the matchup. This month was like 25% winrate and it would've been lower if protoss didn't one base all-in a couple games. Zerg completely shits on protoss and you are sitting here acting as if stalker/archon kills THREE zerg armies, which has never actually happened. You're just making random inaccurate statements, probably from your experiences in silver league or something, hence my sarcasm. Um, my talking about roaches v archons was in response to saying that roaches are a soft counter and me saying they aren't. That was me responding to a statement, not me going on a tangent. Lol, there are 2 more zergs in code S than 'toss and that "25% winrate" that you pulled from your ass was not far there off (the other way 'round) couple of months ago when zerg had no answer to 'toss a-moving balls. I just got promoted to masters in season 3 where I fail to see any balance issues ZvP but I do understand bronzies and 'toss trolls thinking so as they can't a-move anymore (HT requires 'T' left click  ) And oh roaches aren't a soft-counter to archons? So you think they're a hard-counter? LoL. As I already stated in previous posts, they do ok in midgame not because they're any particularly good against archons but because aren't as good at that point, you need allot of them en masse for their AoE to show real effect. That and with roaches scaling terribly , they ain't going to hold anymore. But I dunno why I'm saying this to you as you believe zerg units are as strong as toss individually... The 25% winrate I pulled "from my ass" is actually 23.5% in GSL, look it up. While zerg was losing to protoss before, zerg was buffed and began to discover new styles like baneling drops + fungal and now it has been ahead internationally in the matchup since April: http://imgur.com/JvlvyAlso look at the Korean graph and please show me where zerg was ever at 25% versus protoss in Korea: http://i.imgur.com/aZDCO.pngThe lowest was 42.9%, back in September 2010. Lmao, you think that you are going to have a large amount of archons (300 gas) and stalkers in the midgame, enough to put a dent into a roach army? Sorry, try some micro for yourself---fungal growth those archons into place, they are 3 range compared to 4 of roaches and if you focus fire then archons will never get a shot off, so yes, roaches are a hard counter to them. Sorry that you can't beat mass archon/stalker with a-moving mass roach? Roaches do not scale terribly. They scale better with upgrades than stalkers, this is also a fact. They are supply-inefficient, not cost-inefficient. You make up for that by going into high tech units to match protoss high tech units, like infestors and broodlords. Infestor/broodlord is just as good of a deathball as voidray/colossus ever was, and it beats that composition. Watch high level ZvP nowadays so you stop sounding so ignorant. I don't see any 23.5% in any of these graphs nor would it matter even if it was true as both races are being raped by terrans and the fact that TvP is more imbalanced than TvZ matters jack shit when considering (the VERY FEW) ZvP's we have seen. Protoss lost these matches and you take that as a proof of imbalance? That's how it works only in your dreams. Roaches scale terribly. They do shit dmg and their only worth, their relatively high hp, is worthless lategame because of AoE. They are kinda similar to stalkers in that regard, also high hp/ low dps, but unlike stalkers have 4 and not 6 range so worse surface area/less dps and more importantly, more vulnerable to AoE. You can have 50 roaches lategame in a 200/200 army and unless it's a massive concave in like the middle of Tal'Darim (which is the fault of the 'toss, you ain't going to utilize all of them. Not even close. Unlike stalkers which have blink, infinetely more useful than burrow (late game). But that requires micro some thing I'm not even sure you know what it is. Why do you even talk about infestor/broodlords lol. You further my points, as that's exactly what you see lategame ZvP, infestors+broodlords not hurr-durr. 50 roach "micro" (lol...) ass-raped by storms/colossi/archons. Also I watch tons of starcraft (not some much these days tho, too many TvT's in GSL, some of my favourite youtube casters hibernating) so why do you continue with pointless personal attacks when you know nothing about me. Also I see tons of rapage, from both sides and not a one sided infestors+roach pushes you think is so unstoppable. Um, because those graphs don't have August's statistics in them? Lol arguing with you is pointless and you have horrible reading comprehension and overall reasoning skills. Continue to think zerg is bad versus protoss while they do amazingly. Thanks for the debate, it was funny. So you don't have any arguments anymore and refers to personal attacks. Pointless idd. And *once again*, it doesn't matter it if those "statistics" (requires more than one season...) are true cause we have so few ZvP's this season. Reading comprehension fail idd.
You also used personal attacks the entire time and are just stating completely random things. Arguing with you is pointless because you seem to have no idea what is actually being argued. Here, I'll humor you one more time and try to make this as simple as possible.
I have explained why roaches are bad in a 200/200 engagement of pure roaches. It is their supply inefficiency and being outranged so more stalkers engage. If it is 200/200 of stalkers and 200/200 of roaches the stalker army is literally twice the cost of the roach army, no shit it loses. I acknowledged this the entire time, but roaches are most cost-effective than stalkers in anything that's not a maxed out scenario where range comes into play. However that scenario never happens because no one goes to 200/200 roaches anymore.The reason I brought infestor/broodlord into it is the same reason you brought up storms/colossi/archons beating roaches---because we are moving into late game past t1 of stalker v roach into t3, and zerg should have t3 to beat protoss' t3. No shit that roaches die to colossi/storm/archons with stalker support in the late game, stalkers also die to broodlords and infestors with roach support very cost-inefficiently.
Also roach damage is higher than stalker damage at 3/3, so how can you say they have shit damage when they have more DPS at half the cost?
The chart I showed has zerg being ahead of protoss since April. That's more than one season. The seasons before that, btw, were zerg making 200/200 of roaches. Which we both agree is fucking retarded.
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maybe infestors with overlord drops will become the norm, just like we're starting to see HTs in warp prisms
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Looks like QQ wins again. At this point I really wish Idra and his legion of fanboys played Protoss instead. I have no doubt we would still have KA, NP wouldn't work vs massive, and roaches would have 3 range if that were the case.
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-_- so many people on bnet forums are saying that colossus range is 7 by default when it's actually 6.
On September 16 2011 07:21 iamke55 wrote:
Looks like QQ wins again. At this point I really wish Idra and his legion of fanboys played Protoss instead. I have no doubt we would still have KA, NP wouldn't work vs massive, and roaches would have 3 range if that were the case.
Khaydarin Amulet is pretty unfair though. Being able to warp in and storm immediately means a powerful, immediate response to any kind of harass.
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I like that there doing this. Infestors could just stand back and NP all your heavy damage units and you couldn't snipe them cause they would be behind everything and zerglings would eat you up if you try to run in there and get them.
Seems fair, I just wish they would turn down the range of hellions. I am a Terran player and I want that lol!
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cant wait for the ghost nerfs
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On September 16 2011 07:17 IamPryda wrote:
Figures just like fungal not affecting air units got reverted by Zerg qq so does np. I wonder why no other options were looked at for the Templar before they just removed the amulet. It's pretty clear how the races are treated- terran is blizzards pride and joy and Zerg is the fully grown adult that blizzards feels the need to still baby and Protoss is the middle child no one gives a shit about
The whole "Blizz responds to QQ" argument is baseless bullshit. If you think they are that easily influenced by people crying then Infestors wouldn't even be in the game anymore.
"omg neural all my colossi gg qq"
"omg fungal my army can't move no micro gg qq"
"omg so many infested terrans gg qq"
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On September 16 2011 06:55 Zelniq wrote:
omg we're witnessing a sick meta-patching strategy by Blizzard:
How to lower NP's range to 7 without upsetting the community? Propose an outrageous nerf for a while, then replace it with a less severe one. BRILLIANT
I used to do that with my parents when I was a little kid when I wanted them to say, take me to the movies. I'd just ask to go to something like miniature golf or bowling first, then after they turn it down they feel more welcome to the idea of going to a movie
They did the same thing with Kydarian, except there weren't enough toss whiners to get it toned down t.t
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On September 16 2011 07:21 iamke55 wrote:
Looks like QQ wins again. At this point I really wish Idra and his legion of fanboys played Protoss instead. I have no doubt we would still have KA, NP wouldn't work vs massive, and roaches would have 3 range if that were the case.
It's the power of the zerg community swarm.
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I'm Zerg and I understand the NP change to fix infestors in ZvP but I have no idea how I'm going to deal with mech in the late game.
I don't think that even if I remax 3 times with whatever units you want I could kill tank thor viking without being able to neural half the thors. It was already pretty hard with range 9 to not instantly die.
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On September 16 2011 03:46 grungust wrote:
Just goes to show how blizzard has a fundamental misunderstanding on how to balance this game. SC2 game design is just absolutely horrible for 2/3 of the game (protoss,zerg)
When you're platinum the game can be quite hard.
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People are so quick to hate on blizzard regarding balance changes,
I think that alot, perhaps all, of their decisions have proven them to be far more insightful than the vocal proportion of the community who berate them so readily.
Moreover I know that for all but the most extreme of changes it is difficult to even guess at the effects a change could have upon the game. I myself believed that removing the ht's amulet would ruin pvt and turn it into a collosi-fest. Now, with foresight, and as a protoss player, i would not change the templar back to as it was for the world since it made, for me, the game alot more fun.
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On September 16 2011 07:16 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:16 branflakes14 wrote:On September 16 2011 07:14 aWildRATTATA wrote:On September 16 2011 07:09 MMello wrote:On September 16 2011 07:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 16 2011 07:04 ZAiNs wrote:I wish Blizzard would use this strategy for Protoss, they still have time to put back in Amulet . Amulet was OP and anti-skill though. Good riddance. That said they removed 2 of our upgrades completely, which is just sad. I want more upgrades for stuff! No words for how bad you are Drop Forget to save probes. Warp templar Storm it trice before nexus loses 25% shield. Chrono nexii. Storms aren't a guaranteed 80 damage. You're lucky if you get half of that. Guaranteed 20 damage assuming you don't misclick.
There's a medivac that got them there to heal, 1 storm can be avoided or missed and then you're dead, and ur in deep shit if there's two medivac drops. Since Protoss are slowest units, this is why you see most sitting in their base for a good portion of the game.
Anyway, great change to infestor. It was way to easy in a lot of situations to simply dump every bit of gas you had after speedling and lair into mass infestors that basically require protoss to have 3 established bases, a ton of aoe and perfect micro to avoid NP. It's a problem when you have 4 colossi and 8 sentries (amongs zeal and stalkers) against 100 lings and 10 infestors and NP is range 9. You simply cannot zone properly most of the time (or if you can it is short lived) before your sentries are dead and your colossi are taken.
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How many times do you see NP beeing used without the infestors getting sniped. Now imagine the same with less range. Awful change... I rather take the non massive and NP 1 blink out of range than this.
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EPT
