Warning! Might contain spoilers (GSTL, Aug 25th 2011)
Just a small, general thought I had, and I'd really like to hear your guys' opinion on this.
F.United sends out 2 foreigner Terrans, and then FoxLyn, in my eyes, one of the weaker Korean Terrans out there, in Team League today.
I don't wanna discuss the games or anything, but I wonder, what the thought process of sending out 3 Terrans was.
Korean Terrans are, in my opinion, leagues above foreign Terrans. Which of course also means, that foreign non-Terrans are adapted to very high level Terran play. So why would they send out 3 Terrans in a row, after seeing that boongboong is very well capable to deny harassement and standard Terran play?
I don't mean to be harsh on Thorzain, Fenix or Lyn, but to let them play against players who are used to play strong korean terrans, to me it makes just no sense.
In a team league you want to send out 1. your best players left OR 2. someone who is capable of sniping the player
just because he won 1 game vs terran does not mean he will easily beat all terrans or be worse vs other races. you act like if he hasn't played vs other race in weeks.
also, FUNITED had only terrans that day except soccer, who has not won a gsl game yet.
If there is another "F.United" type team next GSTL, they seriously need a deeper roster. I doubt they can even factor which race a certain player is weak against into their decisions, especially with Naniwa gone.
On August 26 2011 01:56 Termit wrote: I don't think they care that much. Bad times for foreigners to go over and play GSTL when the only koreans and half the roster is playing wc3 for WCG.
I hope for a foreigner team next season but with players who practice Starcraft 2 and takes this seriously and not practicing wc3.
Thorzain is actually doing very good on kr ladder. HerO played Thorzain twice (I think) on his stream and lost both games. You couldnt be more wrong sir.
What choice do they have? They only had those 4 players on the bench as far as I saw. Soccer wasn't even there. F.United's coach didn't have a choice when it comes to arranging the picks.
Thorzain is actually doing very good on kr ladder. HerO played Thorzain twice (I think) on his stream and lost both games. You couldnt be more wrong sir.
To be honest with lyn and moon practising warcraft 3, the coach had an effective roaster of 3 player. I don't think you can blame him on making any bad decision except sending out thorzain first (as his weak matchup is TvZ and you would prefer to try to snipe a zerg before).
It's not a team like IM or oGs where you have the choice between 10 code A/S level players...
On August 26 2011 01:49 tendence wrote: Warning! Might contain spoilers (GSTL, Aug 25th 2011)
Just a small, general thought I had, and I'd really like to hear your guys' opinion on this.
F.United sends out 2 foreigner Terrans, and then FoxLyn, in my eyes, one of the weaker Korean Terrans out there, in Team League today.
I don't wanna discuss the games or anything, but I wonder, what the thought process of sending out 3 Terrans was.
Korean Terrans are, in my opinion, leagues above foreign Terrans. Which of course also means, that foreign non-Terrans are adapted to very high level Terran play. So why would they send out 3 Terrans in a row, after seeing that boongboong is very well capable to deny harassement and standard Terran play?
I don't mean to be harsh on Thorzain, Fenix or Lyn, but to let them play against players who are used to play strong korean terrans, to me it makes just no sense.
What do you think about that?
Ok. Let's think this through together. They shouldn't have used Thorzain, Fenix or Lyn. Naniwa is on his way to Raleigh so he wasn't available.
Who are the four players they should have fielded?
On August 26 2011 01:49 tendence wrote: Warning! Might contain spoilers (GSTL, Aug 25th 2011)
Just a small, general thought I had, and I'd really like to hear your guys' opinion on this.
F.United sends out 2 foreigner Terrans, and then FoxLyn, in my eyes, one of the weaker Korean Terrans out there, in Team League today.
I don't wanna discuss the games or anything, but I wonder, what the thought process of sending out 3 Terrans was.
Korean Terrans are, in my opinion, leagues above foreign Terrans. Which of course also means, that foreign non-Terrans are adapted to very high level Terran play. So why would they send out 3 Terrans in a row, after seeing that boongboong is very well capable to deny harassement and standard Terran play?
I don't mean to be harsh on Thorzain, Fenix or Lyn, but to let them play against players who are used to play strong korean terrans, to me it makes just no sense.
What do you think about that?
They might have been maximizing their perceived expectation yet you don't know this because you do not have access to the information that they do, which is a sound assumption. Say, e.g., Lyn's E(winrate) vs randomly iid drawn GM zerg is > Soccer's E(Winrate) vs randomly iid drawn GM zerg (ceteris paribus w.r.t maps etc), then you'd pull Lyn for Boonboong instead of Soccer. However, Boongboong might be strong in ZvT, and this is something the coach and players would have to have debated.
TL;DR, they're better than you and have access to much much more information than you do.
On August 26 2011 01:51 Choboo wrote: Naniwa wasn't there and Lyn > Soccer
This is basically it. They only have 6 players and one of them is gone for MLG. It's kind of a coinflip between Soccer and Lyn, but apparently BboongBboong had a pretty bad record against terrans before today. They are most likely going to use Soccer instead of Lyn tomorrow since FUnited seems to be rotating their players a bit.
F. United isn't the first team in the GSTL to make a questionable decision in the format.
Remember QXC all-killing Incredible Miracle while "best player in the world" NesTea sat on the bench? Partly because IM was so supremely confident that its 'ace' players could produce an all-kill it sent out a succession of mediocre players?
If you have a roster that's stacked on one race, you sorta have to play it, even if your opponent has figured it out.
Besides, even if Lyn's tournament results have been disappointing, maybe he's been hot in practice or something....you never know.
On August 26 2011 01:49 tendence wrote: Warning! Might contain spoilers (GSTL, Aug 25th 2011)
Just a small, general thought I had, and I'd really like to hear your guys' opinion on this.
F.United sends out 2 foreigner Terrans, and then FoxLyn, in my eyes, one of the weaker Korean Terrans out there, in Team League today.
I don't wanna discuss the games or anything, but I wonder, what the thought process of sending out 3 Terrans was.
Korean Terrans are, in my opinion, leagues above foreign Terrans. Which of course also means, that foreign non-Terrans are adapted to very high level Terran play. So why would they send out 3 Terrans in a row, after seeing that boongboong is very well capable to deny harassement and standard Terran play?
I don't mean to be harsh on Thorzain, Fenix or Lyn, but to let them play against players who are used to play strong korean terrans, to me it makes just no sense.
What do you think about that?
It was less questionable decision on F United's part but rather the lack of a roster. Naniwa is travelling to or is in Raleigh for MLG this weekend and the players they have on the roster. Here's the list: Naniwa(MLG Raleigh, not available) Thorzain Fenix Lyn Moon SocceR
3/5 of them are Terran, at least two of the will play and SocceR just seemed to be uninspiring in play when we saw him.
On August 26 2011 01:54 Duravi wrote: If there is another "F.United" type team next GSTL, they seriously need a deeper roster. I doubt they can even factor which race a certain player is weak against into their decisions, especially with Naniwa gone.
Having a shallow team is helping my fantasy team.. I've got Naniwa and Thorzain and they're practically guaranteed to be fielded every time F.United plays :p
In the end though, I do agree with you. But with WeMadeFox disbanding at the end of the month, the future of the time is a little up in the air I think.
Thorzain is actually doing very good on kr ladder. HerO played Thorzain twice (I think) on his stream and lost both games. You couldnt be more wrong sir.
Thorzain also played against Puzzle on his stream and they both won a game and lost a game .
They have 6 players, without Naniwa who was enroute to MLG they have 5. Alright, let's say you're right and Thorzain, Fenix (which has already been somewhat proven wrong) and Lyn are nothing compared to the calibre of Terrans the Koreans are used to.
Alright, you're right... They should send out their weakest player(Soccer), the guy who is preparing for WCG for WC3(Moon) and... then they should pack up and go home because all they have left are Terrans.
The lineup for F. United isn't all that deep, they have three Terrans, one Zerg and two Protoss(one of which was unavailable). So if you want them to not play Terrans, then they can 2v4 and peace out.
The only additional player they could have played was Soccer, who seems by far to be their weakest player.
On August 26 2011 01:56 Termit wrote: I don't think they care that much. Bad times for foreigners to go over and play GSTL when the only koreans and half the roster is playing wc3 for WCG.
I hope for a foreigner team next season but with players who practice Starcraft 2 and takes this seriously and not practicing wc3.
Idra, Huk and Puma might say hello to you.
Especially with WeMadeFox disbanding, I'm thinking it'll definitely be EG who picks up the "foreign" title in the next GSTL. Looking for a super team that's made up of the EG guys, as well as the next round of MLG invites, and whoever stays (nani, sase, fenix?)
F. United is just way to shallow. Yeah Lyn is garbage atm because he is still actively playing War3 but with Naniwas on his way to MLG the only other player they could have played was Soccer. Maybe that would have been a better decision, but they didn't really have a lot of options. Sad that a team that has shown such promise (vs. MVP and TSL) gets put in such a crappy situation with Lyn and Moon playing War3 and Fox disbanding. Hopefully they can team up with EG next season or something.
On August 26 2011 01:58 Darkthorn wrote: Idra, Huk and Puma might say hello to you.
I really hope EG leads a team next year, but they'll still be struggling for depth unless they pick up another 2 or 3 koreans or a korean partner team. Naniwa might still be over there by then but it's not sounding like Thorzain will stay that long
Thorzain is kind of kicking ass, he hasn't won all of his games but when he loses it's still a close game, and when he wins he looks invincible. A good number of korean players have said that they consider him a force to be reckoned with, and he's been recognized by MC and Boxer multiple times (along with MMA and a bunch of other really good players).
I wouldn't say he's below koreans in skill. His match against BBoongBBoong was an anomaly. He said afterwards that he wasn't feeling well and wasn't in the best shape due to some bad news he had received.
On August 26 2011 01:58 Darkthorn wrote: Idra, Huk and Puma might say hello to you.
I really hope EG leads a team next year, but they'll still be struggling for depth unless they pick up another 2 or 3 koreans or a korean partner team. Naniwa might still be over there by then but it's not sounding like Thorzain will stay that long
I haven't actually read the thread (as I want to avoid spoilers, haven't watched the games yet). But I can give some insight maybe.
I was at GOMTV a couple of weeks ago. You can see who is chosen before they actually go out because during the previous game, the next guy will go and set up his equipment. Most teams will have snipers prepared and send out different people to go and set up depending on who is next.
I noticed however, that F.United never changed their player regardless of the situation. Bassically they seemed to have a set lineup of players they had planned to set out and stuck to it. Most likely because they're sort of a "thrown together" team and want to give each player equal chances to show their skills.
On August 26 2011 01:58 Darkthorn wrote: Idra, Huk and Puma might say hello to you.
I really hope EG leads a team next year, but they'll still be struggling for depth unless they pick up another 2 or 3 koreans or a korean partner team. Naniwa might still be over there by then but it's not sounding like Thorzain will stay that long
I don't think EG will have enough players in Korea to field a team. But they could probably take the place of Fox and together with MLG invites, form a team.
F.UN have no players that are exceptionally good at TvZ. I think Prime saw that and just sent out their best Zerg (check isn't that great) to rack up kills. Once Thorzain is knocked down, it's not easy to comeback.
They really didn't have any other choices. It was either Lyn, Soccer or Moon. Soccer's really not shown anything in SC2, and they saved Moon for last. That just leaves Lyn.
On August 26 2011 01:49 tendence wrote: Korean Terrans are, in my opinion, leagues above foreign Terrans.
In the GSTL, foreign terrans have faced off with Korean terrans directly 11 times. Of those 11 games, 6 of them were won by the foreigners. It would seem to me that these particular players have proven themselves to be in very much the same league.
I'm sorry but its like you don't watch Starcraft 2 at all...
Thorzain was the reason they won there first match, Fenix took out 2 great TSL players including Clide who has insane TvT and has been one of the strongest Macro terrans for a while (I have not been blinded by Artosis just fact). The foreigners are the strongest of that team... Lyn has had better GSL results then Moon and soccer... Its not like they have a lot of options...
Thorzain was probably sent out to try to All Kill. Didn't happen, but he has the most wins in the GSTL for F.united and is their strongest player.
On August 26 2011 13:56 Teim wrote: I was at GOMTV a couple of weeks ago. You can see who is chosen before they actually go out because during the previous game, the next guy will go and set up his equipment. Most teams will have snipers prepared and send out different people to go and set up depending on who is next.
Well! That explains how Naniwa was able to "magically" use his lefty setup when he was called in an earlier match.
EPT
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