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On August 20 2011 07:25 robih wrote:
awesome talk
the only thing where i was like "wtf?" was when he described the way wc3 and sc2 are played respectively.
he says wc3 is more about fighting and losing stuff and rebuilding it because the smaller armies are easier to rebuild. he also states that in sc2 people don't want to take fights, and run away from fights, which they realize are not winnable.
imho he totally described wc3 how sc2 is and the other way round.
it's way easier to rebuild a 200/200 armyin sc2 except you built it up from two base turteling like a madman.
also its a lot more common to not take fights or get away from fights in wc3 since there is a townportal.
last but not least you can't afford to "throw away armies" in wc3, since units are waaaaay more valuable than in sc2
i really thought he was messing up and describing the wrong game, but he even had it on his slides so i guess he was serious about it
The point to take is that the gameplay of WC3 is designed around a specific paradigm, that of small armies with individually more valuable units, and an army management system that signals when you might want to attack. The metagame of WC3 might refine or change those basic principles because of current strategy, but its hard to argue that the game design does not include these elements.
SC2, on the other hand, relies on an economic management system that signals when to attack, with larger armies of less individually valuable units. Its no longer the size of the army which is the determining factor, its economics and its relationship with your and your opponent's army.
The difference in paradigms are illustrated in the distinct mechanics of WC3 and SC2. The individual Heroes are central to WC3 play and the way in which you engage and use your units. In SC2, its economics. Its no mistake that each race has distinct macro mechanics in SC2, because they allow for economic choices, and by extension, add variability to gameplay.
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The point about the ladder maps is valid, but we're not talking micro here.
We're talking sending an SCV or two around the map every so often. Not that hard. Noobs can do it. Not a good reason to not have big maps.
One thing I don't think he believes is that SMALLER maps are harder for noobs. Once some average guy masters a timing, noobs are screwed no matter what. At least bigger maps feel psychologically safer since there's more space for everyone.
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Thanks for this - really interesting. It's a shame they don't understand about maps.
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On August 20 2011 07:25 robih wrote:
awesome talk
the only thing where i was like "wtf?" was when he described the way wc3 and sc2 are played respectively.
he says wc3 is more about fighting and losing stuff and rebuilding it because the smaller armies are easier to rebuild. he also states that in sc2 people don't want to take fights, and run away from fights, which they realize are not winnable.
imho he totally described wc3 how sc2 is and the other way round.
it's way easier to rebuild a 200/200 armyin sc2 except you built it up from two base turteling like a madman.
also its a lot more common to not take fights or get away from fights in wc3 since there is a townportal.
last but not least you can't afford to "throw away armies" in wc3, since units are waaaaay more valuable than in sc2
i really thought he was messing up and describing the wrong game, but he even had it on his slides so i guess he was serious about it
he was talking about the single player game and building the single player around the game mechanics that were largely informed by the game trying to also be an esport
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wow really good presentation.
I kinda like dustin browder now.
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browder is a great guy, i really liked how he said the reaper may be changed in hots, and how the thor may be not as cool as the goliath in retrospective <.<
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On August 20 2011 07:33 Joey Wheeler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 06:58 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 06:52 mufin wrote:
lol'd so hard at this part Well you can laugh all you want, or maybe you could actually listen to what Browder was saying while showing that... Because it was quite spot on. He's saying micro takes skill and is fun to watch. Forcefields: 1) are not fun to watch 2) do not encourage skill when movement is restricted
His real point was that there is various degrees of success for the same action, and that's what creates skill, not that throwing forcefields is a skillful act. For forcefields, it can be overlap, hole in the forcefield wall, letting too many/few units on one side, speed of the casting etc..., and you can have your own opinion about that, but I enjoy watching MC's forcefields, not so much random protoss' ones. That's what he meant by that part.
I think his point was clear, and his example quite relevant, albeit controversial.
He didn't say "OLOLOLOL I'm gonna spam my F key and show mah skillz, bitches."
The following is certainly off topic but:
It's quite clear that you can't do anything once forcefielded (or fungal growth'd, or caught by concussive shell or whatever...), I don't know if it's good design or not, but no pro A-move his fucking army against forcefields anymore, that's so 6 months ago. That's skill they acquired I guess, along with using some kind of tech to temper this spell's effect (burrow, medivacs, massive units)
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I think this was quite a breath of fresh air coming from the design team - You know, after only hearing them talk about campaigns and story and how they can accomodate new players, this is the first time I think I've heard them say: E-sports is key, our game is about E-sports and we built it around it.
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That ESPORT slide he keeps showing has me and a ton of other TL members in it. 
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This was very interresting. Enjoyed watching that very much. Thanks a lot for posting that link.
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Thanks for posting, really glad to get some insight from Dustin Browder on SC2. He touched on a lot of aspects of the game that did not receive as much spotlight and also showed great vision for the game.
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seeing this video makes me feel sorry for them when a lot of guys on here bash the balance of the game, and how blizzard go about things when new patches come out.
It's clear to see they have a challenge greater than anyone can imagine to create a game of this standard, and have that equilibrium between all of the races while the meta game constantly changes.
It also profoundly touches on how as more time goes by, 'imbalances' tend to be figured out, pondered and eventually overcome by new strategy and ideas rather than nerfs and buffs. The current issues with the game that people cry about (protoss X is op, terran X is op, zerg X is op, etc) are certainly ironning out a lot lately on their own. The huge exposure this game gets with all the streams, tournements, casters and general coverage means theres a lot of people watching and thinking about the game, strategies evolving every day.
The design of the game IMO is fantastic, and I think given 2-3 years of updates, patches and expansions we will have a true successor to broodwar in every way.
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On August 20 2011 07:47 0neder wrote:
The point about the ladder maps is valid, but we're not talking micro here.
We're talking sending an SCV or two around the map every so often. Not that hard. Noobs can do it. Not a good reason to not have big maps.
One thing I don't think he believes is that SMALLER maps are harder for noobs. Once some average guy masters a timing, noobs are screwed no matter what. At least bigger maps feel psychologically safer since there's more space for everyone.
I completely agree with you sir. Also my thoughts have always been this: Balance the game and maps around the pro scene. The lower level casual players will not care if there are macro maps on ladder or about a 5% damage increase to X units. It doesn't matter at their level. I wish Blizzard and Browder could just see what everyone here on the this forum sees. XD. Good interview though, loved the presentation.
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On August 20 2011 08:06 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 07:33 Joey Wheeler wrote:On August 20 2011 06:58 ZenithM wrote:On August 20 2011 06:52 mufin wrote:
lol'd so hard at this part Well you can laugh all you want, or maybe you could actually listen to what Browder was saying while showing that... Because it was quite spot on. He's saying micro takes skill and is fun to watch. Forcefields: 1) are not fun to watch 2) do not encourage skill when movement is restricted His real point was that there is various degrees of success for the same action, and that's what creates skill, not that throwing forcefields is a skillful act. For forcefields, it can be overlap, hole in the forcefield wall, letting too many/few units on one side, speed of the casting etc..., and you can have your own opinion about that, but I enjoy watching MC's forcefields, not so much random protoss' ones. That's what he meant by that part. I think his point was clear, and his example quite relevant, albeit controversial. He didn't say "OLOLOLOL I'm gonna spam my F key and show mah skillz, bitches." The following is certainly off topic but: It's quite clear that you can't do anything once forcefielded (or fungal growth'd, or caught by concussive shell or whatever...), I don't know if it's good design or not, but no pro A-move his fucking army against forcefields anymore, that's so 6 months ago. That's skill they acquired I guess, along with using some kind of tech to temper this spell's effect (burrow, medivacs, massive units)
He makes a valid point, but by midgame the amount of sentries with energy make missing forcefields quite forgiving, therefore using it as a way of showing skill isn't a very good example.
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The thing about warcraft 3 didn't make much sense to me. In wc3 you want to keep every unit alive as long as possible. In sc2 replacing units I think is much easier, and even often times you would not look at the battle but macro instead. Other than that it was a great presentation.
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On August 20 2011 16:25 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
The thing about warcraft 3 didn't make much sense to me. In wc3 you want to keep every unit alive as long as possible. In sc2 replacing units I think is much easier, and even often times you would not look at the battle but macro instead. Other than that it was a great presentation.
was thinking the same thing. you don't throw away units in wc3 like you do in sc(2)
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I got a question; Whats the difference between designing a regular RTS (like starcraft) and making an E-Sport (starcraft 2)?
Honestly... does anyone really think people were designing the original starcraft to become an E-Sport? Or were they just designing a game that was fun to play.
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On August 21 2011 17:21 Energizer wrote:
I got a question; Whats the difference between designing a regular RTS (like starcraft) and making an E-Sport (starcraft 2)?
Honestly... does anyone really think people were designing the original starcraft to become an E-Sport? Or were they just designing a game that was fun to play.
Well a game that was fun to play hence a game that made them money.
Their concentration on making an esport is cool, but they definitely fucked up a bit.
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On August 19 2011 05:15 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 02:30 aksfjh wrote:On August 19 2011 00:38 Demonace34 wrote:
The only problem I have with his thought on Skill is about Micromanagement. The spells that freeze and stop micro management make the game less enjoyable to watch. Fungal forcefield and concussive all make micro for the other person almost non-existent. Thanks for posting this though, lots of good stuff about game design in here. You kidding me? Those forcefields, fungals, and getting caught in concussive shells is what can make the early game exciting. Those things make every second of the game important. Get out of position slightly? BAM! That's the end of that force and possibly the game changing event. Go watch some of Tyler's Dragoon micro in his courage video early game v T. Getting caught by FF or concussive shells that early in SCII game and no amount of micro can get you out of that. The snowball effect is just too great for a 50/50 upgrade that early in my opinion. I guess I'm just one of those people that want to play BW with better pathing and better graphics. Instead of complaining I guess I should just get used to it though.
Play SC2BW (do a map search). I have found new love for the game since doing customs of those mods.
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I soooooo sad to hear that DB feels that e-sports and a mature story for the singleplayers are mutually exclusive...
I'm gald to hear the thuoghts about why the story was so hamfisted - I guess I'm hoping against hope that they re-evaluate their choice... it's a little jarring to imagine that felt that had to go action movie over the top in the plot department to make the characters stand out, and make the player feel for the characters in game...
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EPT
