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On August 19 2011 19:25 Aldehyde wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 09:21 emc wrote:
48 minutes in, dustin talks about how awesome it is that GSL is using their own maps instead of their own because he admits the blizzard maps aren't made for competitive play. Did I just blow your minds? Now maybe people will stop bitching about how they want blizzard ladder maps to be more competitive. Let's face it, Blizzard WANTS their ladder to appeal to EVERYONE, from bronze to high GM. So next time we see a ladder map pool change, let's get off our high horse and just accept what they are doing because it's clear that blizzard knows what they are doing and are actually encouraging the competitive community to branch out on their own.
Thought I'd just mention that. The problem is not that Blizzard is trying to appeal to everyone. It's that the ladder is pretty much the only place for new players to practice since they don't have any practice partners. If the ladder maps require you to play completely different from tournament maps and the ladder does not use tournament maps, new players will have big troubles getting really good. This is the problem, I couldn't care less if they had a main ladder for everyone to play upon and then add another ladder where only tournament maps are played, that would be awesome, more than awesome. In BW, as far as I understand, the ladder actually consisted of tournament maps (on ICCup and all the other pirate ladders). That's not the case in SC2. So yeah, I will keep whining every time they add stupid maps like the new Abyssal Crater or whatever it's called, or the Searing Gorge.
Dustin made a really good point in the talk. He said something like this: "I'm mid diamond player and the gsl maps has 16 expansions. At that point, if i'm lower level player, games are won by hidden expansions and not by strategy, because i'm not effective at scouting." I found this really interesting, and i think he has a point. If they indeed try to make a ladder appealing for all skill levels, the choice of maps make a little more sense. I still wish there was a better way to choose maps you want to ladder on, though. Perheps instead of voting down maps you would vote up maps from current ladder + tournament maps.
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On August 19 2011 19:41 RoyalCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 19:25 Aldehyde wrote:On August 19 2011 09:21 emc wrote:
48 minutes in, dustin talks about how awesome it is that GSL is using their own maps instead of their own because he admits the blizzard maps aren't made for competitive play. Did I just blow your minds? Now maybe people will stop bitching about how they want blizzard ladder maps to be more competitive. Let's face it, Blizzard WANTS their ladder to appeal to EVERYONE, from bronze to high GM. So next time we see a ladder map pool change, let's get off our high horse and just accept what they are doing because it's clear that blizzard knows what they are doing and are actually encouraging the competitive community to branch out on their own.
Thought I'd just mention that. The problem is not that Blizzard is trying to appeal to everyone. It's that the ladder is pretty much the only place for new players to practice since they don't have any practice partners. If the ladder maps require you to play completely different from tournament maps and the ladder does not use tournament maps, new players will have big troubles getting really good. This is the problem, I couldn't care less if they had a main ladder for everyone to play upon and then add another ladder where only tournament maps are played, that would be awesome, more than awesome. In BW, as far as I understand, the ladder actually consisted of tournament maps (on ICCup and all the other pirate ladders). That's not the case in SC2. So yeah, I will keep whining every time they add stupid maps like the new Abyssal Crater or whatever it's called, or the Searing Gorge. Dustin made a really good point in the talk. He said something like this: "I'm mid diamond player and the gsl maps has 16 expansions. At that point, if i'm lower level player, games are won by hidden expansions and not by strategy, because i'm not effective at scouting." I found this really interesting, and i think he has a point. If they indeed try to make a ladder appealing for all skill levels, the choice of maps make a little more sense. I still wish there was a better way to choose maps you want to ladder on, though. Perheps instead of voting down maps you would vote up maps from current ladder + tournament maps.
No, that doesn't make sense if what you want to do is to get better. Sure, if the ladder is only there to let everyone have fun, it may work well. That's my point, though, the ladder is the only place for new players to get good. So if the maps there are played in a completely different way than tournament maps, you can't learn how to play 'properly'. Meaning, you won't be able to compete in tourmanents.
You not knowing how to scout is not an excuse, that will just force you to become better by scouting it. That's what I mean. Add another ladder where you only cater to people who actually try to get good or make the one we have a good place to practice.
Voting up maps from a big pool of maps could also be a way to go about it, I guess. Perhaps with pre-set map pools like GSL, IEM and so on.
The way it is now, though, is actually terrible. Trying to cater to both the competitive players and the casual-just-for-fun players is just stupid.
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On August 19 2011 19:56 Aldehyde wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 19:41 RoyalCheese wrote:On August 19 2011 19:25 Aldehyde wrote:On August 19 2011 09:21 emc wrote:
48 minutes in, dustin talks about how awesome it is that GSL is using their own maps instead of their own because he admits the blizzard maps aren't made for competitive play. Did I just blow your minds? Now maybe people will stop bitching about how they want blizzard ladder maps to be more competitive. Let's face it, Blizzard WANTS their ladder to appeal to EVERYONE, from bronze to high GM. So next time we see a ladder map pool change, let's get off our high horse and just accept what they are doing because it's clear that blizzard knows what they are doing and are actually encouraging the competitive community to branch out on their own.
Thought I'd just mention that. The problem is not that Blizzard is trying to appeal to everyone. It's that the ladder is pretty much the only place for new players to practice since they don't have any practice partners. If the ladder maps require you to play completely different from tournament maps and the ladder does not use tournament maps, new players will have big troubles getting really good. This is the problem, I couldn't care less if they had a main ladder for everyone to play upon and then add another ladder where only tournament maps are played, that would be awesome, more than awesome. In BW, as far as I understand, the ladder actually consisted of tournament maps (on ICCup and all the other pirate ladders). That's not the case in SC2. So yeah, I will keep whining every time they add stupid maps like the new Abyssal Crater or whatever it's called, or the Searing Gorge. Dustin made a really good point in the talk. He said something like this: "I'm mid diamond player and the gsl maps has 16 expansions. At that point, if i'm lower level player, games are won by hidden expansions and not by strategy, because i'm not effective at scouting." I found this really interesting, and i think he has a point. If they indeed try to make a ladder appealing for all skill levels, the choice of maps make a little more sense. I still wish there was a better way to choose maps you want to ladder on, though. Perheps instead of voting down maps you would vote up maps from current ladder + tournament maps. No, that doesn't make sense if what you want to do is to get better. Sure, if the ladder is only there to let everyone have fun, it may work well. That's my point, though, the ladder is the only place for new players to get good. So if the maps there are played in a completely different way than tournament maps, you can't learn how to play 'properly'. Meaning, you won't be able to compete in tourmanents. You not knowing how to scout is not an excuse, that will just force you to become better by scouting it. That's what I mean. Add another ladder where you only cater to people who actually try to get good or make the one we have a good place to practice. Voting up maps from a big pool of maps could also be a way to go about it, I guess. Perhaps with pre-set map pools like GSL, IEM and so on. The way it is now, though, is actually terrible. Trying to cater to both the competitive players and the casual-just-for-fun players is just stupid.
Well from the talk it seems like they are trying to make ladder for casual players, unfortunately. Dustin even said that he thinks that ladder and competetive will have to be eventually separated. Which is sad, but yeah, i agree with your points.
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On August 19 2011 19:41 RoyalCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 19:25 Aldehyde wrote:On August 19 2011 09:21 emc wrote:
48 minutes in, dustin talks about how awesome it is that GSL is using their own maps instead of their own because he admits the blizzard maps aren't made for competitive play. Did I just blow your minds? Now maybe people will stop bitching about how they want blizzard ladder maps to be more competitive. Let's face it, Blizzard WANTS their ladder to appeal to EVERYONE, from bronze to high GM. So next time we see a ladder map pool change, let's get off our high horse and just accept what they are doing because it's clear that blizzard knows what they are doing and are actually encouraging the competitive community to branch out on their own.
Thought I'd just mention that. The problem is not that Blizzard is trying to appeal to everyone. It's that the ladder is pretty much the only place for new players to practice since they don't have any practice partners. If the ladder maps require you to play completely different from tournament maps and the ladder does not use tournament maps, new players will have big troubles getting really good. This is the problem, I couldn't care less if they had a main ladder for everyone to play upon and then add another ladder where only tournament maps are played, that would be awesome, more than awesome. In BW, as far as I understand, the ladder actually consisted of tournament maps (on ICCup and all the other pirate ladders). That's not the case in SC2. So yeah, I will keep whining every time they add stupid maps like the new Abyssal Crater or whatever it's called, or the Searing Gorge. Dustin made a really good point in the talk. He said something like this: "I'm mid diamond player and the gsl maps has 16 expansions. At that point, if i'm lower level player, games are won by hidden expansions and not by strategy, because i'm not effective at scouting." I found this really interesting, and i think he has a point. If they indeed try to make a ladder appealing for all skill levels, the choice of maps make a little more sense. I still wish there was a better way to choose maps you want to ladder on, though. Perheps instead of voting down maps you would vote up maps from current ladder + tournament maps.
it sounds like a good point till you really analyse it. knowing how many bases your opponent is on is as fundemental as making workers or a half decent unit comp. at the mid diamond level these are all things you are supposed to have a grasp of. changing the maps because he cant scout is bad design.
at the lowest levels its still irrelevent because they dont even make use of their bases, in bronze - plat any strat can win you games so designing maps that make these super low level players happy makes no sense.
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Its funny how they are passionate about it being an Esport however they state that their maps are not designed to be used in tournament play >_<
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Wait this wasn't last year's GDC?
Wasn't this from March 2011|
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On August 19 2011 21:43 Highways wrote:
Wait this wasn't last year's GDC?
Wasn't this from March 2011|
It's from the most recent GDC, March 2011.
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Informative, thanks for sharing!
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The presentation was very informative, it seems Blizzard really know what they're doing. I just wish they could have more tournament maps and then more vetoes, or a "pro/tournament ladder" or something where they f. ex always used the newest GSL or MLG mappool. It would probably separate the community a little, but they're already doing that with the current ladder so.
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On August 19 2011 15:55 surfinbird1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 07:37 Nimic wrote:On August 19 2011 06:25 surfinbird1 wrote:
It still baffles me that they brought him in. He apparently still thinks that Koreans are weird for liking Starcraft. First of all it's kinda racist how he talks about them and has he never heard of Counterstrike? Or Quake? Or Street Fighter? Or Warcraft 3? Esports isn't just big in Korea. We have professional players outside of Korea for more than a decade. I think this ignorance of the proscene, i.e. the dedication some people have and the effort some people are willing to put into competitive gaming is the root of some of the problems SC2 has, in my opinion. Maybe they just didn't realize/anticipate how professional players would abuse certain units/timings etc., or how well they would multitask, manage their economy and so on. And since when is micromanagement a dirty word in the RTS scene? I've never heard of that one.
Anyways, it's still very insightful even though I disagree with him on multiple issues. After all, he's the game designer and I'm just the (casual) player. Thanks for the link OP. Leaving all your other points aside, I found this sentence in particular kinda amusing. And since when is micromanagement a dirty word in the RTS scene? I've never heard of that one. I assume you're aware of his background? They didn't just pull some random guy off the street. I'd take his word over yours for what is considered what in the RTS scene. Hence, why I wrote the following paragraph. But still, I come from a WC3/BW background and in those micro is essential. Was it considered bad in Command&Conquer or Age of Empires or any other RTS game?
Did you notice Dustin Browder's own explanation? He himself already noted that this was when RTSes were NEW, and that most perspectives where from the turn-based strategy camp, who looked down on people winning through superior "speed" than superior planning/thought.
"He apparently still thinks that Koreans are weird for liking Starcraft. "
Um, no. Again, pay attention to what he's actually saying. He's pointing out that that's what he thought when he was first hired by Blizzard and first exposed to e-sports. IE, he's trying to connect to and explain it to the people not familiar with this stuff. Surprise surprise, not everyone has followed e-sports...
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awsome, realy enjoyed it. i also ended up dl aoe3 and supreme commander, god damnit, starcraft ill love you forever:3
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On August 19 2011 04:40 unit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 04:36 Treadmill wrote:
Oh man. There's a bit where he talks about the goliath and more or less says that he thinks they maybe should've left in the goliath and not the Thor. Goliath as a multiplayer unit in HotS would make me soooo happy.
Really interesting video too, thanks for the link! idealy it wouldnt have the same ai :3
Unfortunately, DB likes units that look cool. ;/
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UPlpg.jpg)
lol'd so hard at this part
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On August 20 2011 06:52 mufin wrote:
lol'd so hard at this part
Well you can laugh all you want, or maybe you could actually listen to what Browder was saying while showing that...
Because it was quite spot on.
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Damn, I'm famous now, I asked a question at this talk. Not going to say which one I am...
GDC is awesome, this was one of the better sessions. Wish I could've stuck around to chat with him but I'm a volunteer so I had stuff to go do.
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On August 20 2011 06:58 ZenithM wrote:Well you can laugh all you want, or maybe you could actually listen to what Browder was saying while showing that... Because it was quite spot on.
I think Browder was partially right but he was only looking at that situation from one side. People mostly complain about force-fields because there is nothing the other player can do to respond, it is not like the emp/feedback relationship. So well yes, that takes some skill from the protoss, the zerg player has no skillfull way to counteract it. I don't want to derail into an argument about force-fields (personally I think they are fine), just saying I think there is a gap in Browder's logic.
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awesome talk
the only thing where i was like "wtf?" was when he described the way wc3 and sc2 are played respectively.
he says wc3 is more about fighting and losing stuff and rebuilding it because the smaller armies are easier to rebuild. he also states that in sc2 people don't want to take fights, and run away from fights, which they realize are not winnable.
imho he totally described wc3 how sc2 is and the other way round.
it's way easier to rebuild a 200/200 armyin sc2 except you built it up from two base turteling like a madman.
also its a lot more common to not take fights or get away from fights in wc3 since there is a townportal.
last but not least you can't afford to "throw away armies" in wc3, since units are waaaaay more valuable than in sc2
i really thought he was messing up and describing the wrong game, but he even had it on his slides so i guess he was serious about it
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On August 20 2011 06:58 ZenithM wrote:Well you can laugh all you want, or maybe you could actually listen to what Browder was saying while showing that... Because it was quite spot on.
He's saying micro takes skill and is fun to watch.
Forcefields:
1) are not fun to watch
2) do not encourage skill when movement is restricted
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On August 19 2011 04:36 Treadmill wrote:
Oh man. There's a bit where he talks about the goliath and more or less says that he thinks they maybe should've left in the goliath and not the Thor. Goliath as a multiplayer unit in HotS would make me soooo happy.
Really interesting video too, thanks for the link!
Yeah I noticed that too.
It's fantastic to see how much Dustin has learnt and he really seems to understand our game now.
It's just a shame he didn't from the start :p probably in the long run we'll see they made the right choice.
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EPT
