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okrane
France265 Posts
On September 10 2011 18:29 Bagi wrote: I experimented with TvP mass thors quite a bit when they energy was removed, and carriers counter thors hardcore. Much better than VR since they don't bunch up. Too bad mass thors get hardcountered by feedback now. What about Thor / Marine? | ||
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Dimitime
United States8 Posts
On September 10 2011 13:26 PiPoGevy wrote: IN GSL each race has won first place in a span of 10 seasons, it all comes down to your micro, there isnt really that much imbalance in my opinion Won first place, yes. But what happens when we look at total medals (Gold + Silver + Bronze)? Terran: 23 Zerg: 8 Protoss: 9 That doesn't look balanced to me. Nor does the race distrubitution (5 P 20 T 7 Z). What's more is if you look at the total races for all of GSL (17 P 28 T 19 Z) and then look at code A (12 P 8 T 12 Z), it becomes obvious that all of the Terrans have moved out of Code A and into Code S, yet not many Z or P players have accomplished the same. Unless you try to argue that the Terran players are inherently better players, it's obvious that at a high level where skill is mostly the same, Terran wins out. Which means they're imbalanced. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
You're better off just spending the money on vikings or medivacs since thors do about seven damage every 10 seconds to carriers. Plus with interceptors flying about they are likely to spazz about like they sometimes feel like doing. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 10 2011 14:54 Brotocol wrote: I posted this in another thread: Can someone enlighten me? Is that spreadsheet wrong? Or is there a factor that I'm missing? The way things look right now, the Carrier is never worth its cost as far as I can tell. But I'd love to be proven wrong. Carriers DPS really doesn't need to be higher. I used to try Carriers in ZvP before Infestors were buffed, they are a strong unit but why they are weak isn't because of their DPS which at 27DPS isn't amazing They are just countered too easily and hard to get to. A DPS buff won't fix that, it will just make the unit broken in certain situations and still useless for the most part | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On September 10 2011 18:46 Dommk wrote: Carriers DPS really doesn't need to be higher. I used to try Carriers in ZvP before Infestors were buffed, they are a strong unit but why they are weak isn't because of their DPS which at 27DPS isn't amazing They are just countered too easily and hard to get to. A DPS buff won't fix that, it will just make the unit broken in certain situations and still useless for the most part Perhaps. My point was just that I'm sick of hearing "Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, Protoss has to explore Carrier tech more." It's just patently false, and yet it's somehow widely accepted as fact... It's already been explored, and there's not much the pros could do to make it work. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On September 10 2011 19:20 Belial88 wrote: White-Ra goes Carrier/VR in PvZ a lot. It's absolutely unstoppable for Zerg. NP is okay but ghosts rape that, not to mention carrier range when micro'd. It's pretty hard to get to, but on split map he does it and Zerg always loses when he does it. I think that if someone manages to get a critical mass of carriers out, then his opponent must not have been very good. Carriers take so, so, so long to come out and are extremely expensive. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On September 10 2011 19:20 Brotocol wrote: Perhaps. My point was just that I'm sick of hearing "Carriers have the highest DPS in the game, Protoss has to explore Carrier tech more." It's just patently false, and yet it's somehow widely accepted as fact... It's already been explored, and there's not much the pros could do to make it work. Yeah, I think it was Artosis who said that at one point but it is obviously not true. Carrier DPS is the same as BC DPS vs Air  It is high but there are something like 6/7~ other units with higher DPSOn September 10 2011 19:20 Belial88 wrote: White-Ra goes Carrier/VR in PvZ a lot. It's absolutely unstoppable for Zerg. NP is okay but ghosts rape that, not to mention carrier range when micro'd. It's pretty hard to get to, but on split map he does it and Zerg always loses when he does it. And by the same token I've seen Tyler go Carriers and get rolled by a bunch of Corruptors lol... Most likely Zerg have just not seen it before, when I lost using Carriers it is when Zerg got air upgrades and went Corruptors, at a point I had to start mixing in Voidrays (like 50% Carriers 50% Voidrays) otherwise I got rolled >_> Then the Infestor buff hit and Voidrays got pooped on by Fungal T_T | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On September 10 2011 19:20 Belial88 wrote: White-Ra goes Carrier/VR in PvZ a lot. It's absolutely unstoppable for Zerg. NP is okay but ghosts rape that, not to mention carrier range when micro'd. It's pretty hard to get to, but on split map he does it and Zerg always loses when he does it. You also have to assume that these zergs are reacting the correct way, because Whitera is literally the only person who does that. It is WAY WAY WAY to soon to say unstoppable. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
White-Ra is a great player and I love watching his games, but that is not a solid build against Z, IMO. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I think that if someone manages to get a critical mass of carriers out, then his opponent must not have been very good. Carriers take so, so, so long to come out and are extremely expensive. The Zerg was a pro gamer... It's pretty impossible to get to, it's not like White-Ra does it every game. The game was very close all game long, and then it got to a split map situation. In general Protoss will always win a split map scenario. In that particular game I believe it was very normal for the majority of it, with White-Ra using lots of Void Rays. I think a big army trade occured and he remaxed on carriers at the 40 minute mark. Zerg made a pure corruptor army with infestor support and about a million spores, and White-Ra rolled it. No I am not talking about White-Ra vs Darkforce. Sen beat it beacuse it's not something you can open with or do on 3 or even 5 bases. White-Ra played normal, it became 6+ bases split map, and was able to remax with like 10 starports going. It's pretty much impossible to get to VR/Carrier, but if you do get to it, it's unstoppable. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On September 10 2011 19:45 Belial88 wrote: You have to get lots of Void rays to deal with corruptors. The Zerg was a pro gamer... It's pretty impossible to get to, it's not like White-Ra does it every game. The game was very close all game long, and then it got to a split map situation. In general Protoss will always win a split map scenario. In that particular game I believe it was very normal for the majority of it, with White-Ra using lots of Void Rays. I think a big army trade occured and he remaxed on carriers at the 40 minute mark. Zerg made a pure corruptor army with infestor support and about a million spores, and White-Ra rolled it. No I am not talking about White-Ra vs Darkforce. Sen beat it beacuse it's not something you can open with or do on 3 or even 5 bases. White-Ra played normal, it became 6+ bases split map, and was able to remax with like 10 starports going. It's pretty much impossible to get to VR/Carrier, but if you do get to it, it's unstoppable. I see. Pretty interesting  . Still, doesn't sound like a consistently usable build. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On September 10 2011 19:20 Belial88 wrote: White-Ra goes Carrier/VR in PvZ a lot. It's absolutely unstoppable for Zerg. NP is okay but ghosts rape that, not to mention carrier range when micro'd. It's pretty hard to get to, but on split map he does it and Zerg always loses when he does it. "Absolutely unstoppable" "Zerg always loses when he does it" It's a terrible strategy that only works when you are ahead, against lower level players if they don't see it coming. STOP your obvious bias everywhere. Seriously, discussing balance is not the same as crying and whining about it all the time. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Just like I said mass queen/ultra/BL is unstoppable, it's pretty fucking impossible to get to. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On September 10 2011 21:00 Belial88 wrote: ^ Huh? When do I cry about it? Quit your personal vendetta against Zergs and chill out. I am just saying that no, carriers aren't useless, but they have a very limited role (mass siege tanks, or split map PvZ after army trades and somehow having mass stargates set up and void rays still left over). Just like I said mass queen/ultra/BL is unstoppable, it's pretty fucking impossible to get to. I have a personal vendetta against zergs because I am annoyed by some biased zerg player making false claims? You then argue saying carrier void ray is overpowered, because queen/ultra/bl also is, according to you? Really? I'm not going to reply to you again, you're totally disconnected from reality. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
As for ZvP, protoss saying Zerg is OP are just blind. About Protoss, the main problem is how the race is designed. Timing attacks are too good with warpgate tech (less after nerf) but aside from that, they are pretty weak early to mid game. Something needs to be done about warp gate tech - my opinion is that you need to upgrade zealot a bit (giving back their old shield maybe ?) and make charge easier to get while nerfing warpgate production ratio and up gateway so that protoss stay in gateway when they build up their army and switch to warpgate for attack / counter. By the way, the colossus needs to be redesigned too, but no protoss will agree on that since they all love their a click noobish unit. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On September 10 2011 21:17 WhiteDog wrote: The main problem of TvP is the ghost in my opinion. It's such a freaking godly unit and it needs to be nerfed somehow in my opinion. As for ZvP, protoss saying Zerg is OP are just blind. About Protoss, the main problem is how the race is designed. Timing attacks are too good with warpgate tech (less after nerf) but aside from that, they are pretty weak early to mid game. Something needs to be done about warp gate tech - my opinion is that you need to upgrade zealot a bit (giving back their old shield maybe ?) and make charge easier to get while nerfing warpgate production ratio and up gateway so that protoss stay in gateway when they build up their army and switch to warpgate for attack / counter. By the way, the colossus needs to be redesigned too, but no protoss will agree on that since they all love their a click noobish unit. We're not saying ZvP is op, we're saying it's imbalanced because of those protoss design flaws. Protoss needs to be changed, not zerg. PvZ winrates in korea are <30%! And 90% of all protoss will gladly replace the colossus with units like the reaver, which can be micro-ed and isn't just a terribly balanced and designed unit. The problem is colossus has to be so strong because without it protoss will be destroyed even more. Changing the protoss design will change that. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 10 2011 21:29 H0i wrote: We're not saying ZvP is op, we're saying it's imbalanced because of those protoss design flaws. Protoss needs to be changed, not zerg. PvZ winrates in korea are <30%! And 90% of all protoss will gladly replace the colossus with units like the reaver, which can be micro-ed and isn't just a terribly balanced and designed unit. The problem is colossus has to be so strong because without it protoss will be destroyed even more. Changing the protoss design will change that. Protoss gateway army should be buffed and colossus redesigned ; the colossus is not "strong", it's just retarded. When you have a sufficient number, you just negate the entire ground army of your opponent, and if your opponent have a sufficient number of AA units such as viking or corruptor, he negate your entire colossus force, which is by the way almost your only way of dealing damage aside from the templar. That's an idiotic design, colossus should be completly different... | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On September 10 2011 19:23 Brotocol wrote: I think that if someone manages to get a critical mass of carriers out, then his opponent must not have been very good. Carriers take so, so, so long to come out and are extremely expensive. the bolded statement is actually not true. lets make some protoss players have a realization! source: SC2 armory Carrier: buildtime: 120 seconds, 80 seconds if permanently chronoboosted resource cost: 350/250 (+100 minerals for interceptors give 450/250) food cost: 6 hp: 300hp + 150shield = 450 armor: 2 shield armor: 0 movement: 1.88 tags: armoured, mechanical, massive attacks: ground and air dps: unknown broodlord: paranthesis shows the difference between the carrier and broodlord stats favouring broodlord: buildtime: 40+33.83 = ~74 seconds (-46 seconds, alternatively -6 seconds) resource cost: 150/100 + 150/150 = 300/250 (-150/0) food cost: 4 (-2) shield armor: 0 (irrelevant for broodlord) stats favouring carrier hp: 225 (+225) armor: 1 (+1) movement: 1.41 (+0.43) tags: armoured, biological, massive (biological is worse than mechanical due to there being spells and bonus damages vs biological, not the case with mechanical) attacks: ground (+vs air) dps: unknown Im sorry but dps doesn't say on SC2 armory, and I don't feel like searching just to find out just how badly carriers out-dps broodlords, cause Im certain they heavily do even when counting the broodlings. range doesn't show either, so I'll just that assume that the pros and cons cancel each other out on that front. so basicly carriers beat broodlords in almost every aspect other than cost and buildtime, but lets assume blizz balanced the carrier so that you are supposed to chronoboost them, then suddenly the buildtime is extremely comparable, so the question is ultimately, are you ready to pay 150 minerals (3 probes), and 2 supply for 225 hps (!), an additional armor, higher movement speed, better tags, an air attack (!), and higher dps? for the record: I would pay that prize any day of the millenia. so obviously it is not the fact that they take a long time to build, nor the fact that they are expensive, that makes them see so little use, after all, if those were the deciding factors, then why do zergs build broodlords? the only explanation left is that they take a long time to mass true, the carrier can only be built 1 at a time, for every 2 nexi you have, since you need to permanently chronoboost them. but then I ask you: do you really need to mass them? isn't it fine just having 2 of them? (+ the rest of your army) the same way its actually fine attacking with 2 colossi. (+ army) why are you stuck in the mindset of "if I am going to use carriers, I must have 6 or more"? its just not true. | ||
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