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On March 29 2013 01:13 dargul wrote:
by the way
top25 gml korea - only 3t
top50 gml korea - only 8t
...
While this fact is true, no balance whining Protoss or Zerg wants to hear this because it doesn't support their current believe of how the game is balanced. I see most people selectively looking for 'evidence' that only help their case. Most people don't ever look at reality and what the facts are and thus they form a very biased opinion which they think is supported by supposed 'evidence'.
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house
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Hey ladies and gentlemen, I am going to try my hand at this so I apologize if I make anyone upset.
Problem: I am starting to believe that Mutalisks are too common in the current meta game. Deeper explination being since I am a Terran I expect Mutalisks to be used to exploit the lack of mobility in my army. So to make up for the lack I go for Thors early to counteract the Mutalisk harassment along with some missile turrets around the mineral lines. Unfortunately with their ability to regenerate health at such a high rate their harass is guaranteed even with Thors and turrets in my mineral lines.
Solution: Now the solution I propose will probably offend most but I think some players might accept it. My idea would to be get rid of the Mutalisk passive and make it a researched ability available at Lair tech after the completion of the Lair. Make it a similiar research time to Stim for Terran in relation to how long it would take to research and cost being I think relatively cheap at 150/150.
Side Effects: The side effects of this would make ZvZ not always a Muta war and force a change in the meta and possibly bring back Infestor play in matchups such as TvZ and ZvZ. As for the current meta game/side effects for PvZ I am not an expert so I will rely on the viewers of this post to state.
Thank you for reading
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On March 29 2013 00:41 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 14:39 Myrddraal wrote:
Right, because leaving your base totally undefended when your opponent has/may have medivacs is an example of genius positioning, the only solution is to leave your whole army in your base in case you get dropped. The problem is the short cooldown on the boost ability also removes the other major cost to using medivacs to harass compared to WoL - namely that those units won't be available to defend. In WoL, if Terran filled 6 medivacs with bio you had a good chance of just being able to take your whole army and go kill them. Now, when you start moving across the map, they can unload, do irreparable damage in seconds due to the very high DPS of bio, then load back up and boost home in time to help fight off your attack, thus immediately winning the game.
Let me know what is this magic, high DPS Terran army that boost home in under 30s to help defend an attack. Zerglings can move faster to get home to defend a drop than Terran can, they also do more DPS than stimmed marines per supply. Protoss can LITERALLY warp into a base and recall back home. There is nothing unusually powerful about boosted medivacs, and we can see that with the initial ladder stats we have.
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On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house
I saw Life (Zerg) destroying Flash (Terran) and taking the entire HoTS tournament, what were you watching?
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On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house
If there was blatant imbalance with medivac boost, we would surely see ladder results that reflect that. It's not like most of Kespa is Terran, or all the best Terrans don't ladder. I don't see it as proof of imbalance for the lack of GM Terrans, but it's pretty good proof that they aren't OP (that we know of).
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 29 2013 04:59 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house I saw Life (Zerg) destroying Flash (Terran) and taking the entire HoTS tournament, what were you watching?
Em, every other game? Innovation made Leenock look like a scrub, Rain got 3-0ed despite showing solid play. Life is Life, for my money the absolute best player in the world at this particular time.
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On March 29 2013 04:54 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 00:41 Xequecal wrote:On March 28 2013 14:39 Myrddraal wrote:
Right, because leaving your base totally undefended when your opponent has/may have medivacs is an example of genius positioning, the only solution is to leave your whole army in your base in case you get dropped. The problem is the short cooldown on the boost ability also removes the other major cost to using medivacs to harass compared to WoL - namely that those units won't be available to defend. In WoL, if Terran filled 6 medivacs with bio you had a good chance of just being able to take your whole army and go kill them. Now, when you start moving across the map, they can unload, do irreparable damage in seconds due to the very high DPS of bio, then load back up and boost home in time to help fight off your attack, thus immediately winning the game. Let me know what is this magic, high DPS Terran army that boost home in under 30s to help defend an attack. Zerglings can move faster to get home to defend a drop than Terran can, they also do more DPS than stimmed marines per supply. Protoss can LITERALLY warp into a base and recall back home. There is nothing unusually powerful about boosted medivacs, and we can see that with the initial ladder stats we have.
I see you are assuming that every single map is a totally flat and empty plain? That there are no cliffs objects? I don't care about the argument you are making with the other posters, but don't pretend that medivacs with bio aren't the most cost efficient and damaging types. Zerglings more often than not file in and become totally cost ineffective. You can only recall with MSC and warp in when not 200/200, so don't pretend that recall is always an option.
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 29 2013 05:01 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house If there was blatant imbalance with medivac boost, we would surely see ladder results that reflect that. It's not like most of Kespa is Terran, or all the best Terrans don't ladder. I don't see it as proof of imbalance for the lack of GM Terrans, but it's pretty good proof that they aren't OP (that we know of).
I don't agree that it's imbalanced at all, I think it's potentially a bit strong, but people haven't gotten to grips with HoTS yet. I mean Creator for one was doing a lot of his old WoL builds pretty much with an MsC thrown in and getting torn apart by Polt (iirc) from a recent match I recall.
It's more the other side of the coin, claiming that Terrans are currently in weak shape I kind of take umbrage with.
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On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house
Major Tournaments with HOTS so far
GSTL, IEM, MLG.
zerg all kills GSTL 2 or 3 times.
2 protoss and 2 terran in IEM semi finals
MLG suffers from the HOTS early beta syndromes. Nearly all the zergs were eliminated by hellbats early in the beta and all you got in the end is a bunch of foreigners against a ton more korean Terran (and we know how foreigner vs korean goes)
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 29 2013 05:04 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house Major Tournaments with HOTS so far GSTL, IEM, MLG. zerg all kills GSTL 2 or 3 times. 2 protoss and 2 terran in IEM semi finals MLG suffers from the HOTS early beta syndromes. Nearly all the zergs were eliminated by hellbats early in the beta and all you got in the end is a bunch of foreigners against a ton more korean Terran (and we know how foreigner vs korean goes)
Terrans have not dicked on ALL other players, perhaps I have phrased that badly. However they have shown the capacity to destroy opponents when played well, and have lost games when the other races have played well or come up with new builds. Kind of how it should be.
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Where is that "we don't have enough sample size, so let's wait and see how things balance out for the next few months" attitude from Terran when medivac OP discussion started? Suddenly, it's all about today's ladder rank without waiting for a few months? I'm a bit confused about that. Less Terran in GM for now? Yeah, let's just wait and see.
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
It would mean something if we could see who is actually laddering and with what regularity. Kespa pay for B-teamers to pretty much act as practice slaves for the big boys, (not in salary but foods and whatnot), they may as well use that resource
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On March 29 2013 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 05:01 aksfjh wrote:On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house If there was blatant imbalance with medivac boost, we would surely see ladder results that reflect that. It's not like most of Kespa is Terran, or all the best Terrans don't ladder. I don't see it as proof of imbalance for the lack of GM Terrans, but it's pretty good proof that they aren't OP (that we know of). I don't agree that it's imbalanced at all, I think it's potentially a bit strong, but people haven't gotten to grips with HoTS yet. I mean Creator for one was doing a lot of his old WoL builds pretty much with an MsC thrown in and getting torn apart by Polt (iirc) from a recent match I recall. It's more the other side of the coin, claiming that Terrans are currently in weak shape I kind of take umbrage with.
If I seem to lobby that Terran is weak right now, I apologize. It's only a pushback response to these severely unwarranted kneejerk calls for Terran nerfs. Pages and pages of whining that boost and mines are OP, but no evidence, not even circumstantial. Just sandbox theorycrafting discussions that pretend every Terran is a god and Protoss and Zergs are eyeless, armless, braindead opponents that run around the map with their pants down 95% of the time.
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 29 2013 05:10 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 05:03 Wombat_NI wrote:On March 29 2013 05:01 aksfjh wrote:On March 29 2013 04:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terrans have dicked on Protoss and Zergs in some of the only tournament-level play we've seen thus far.
The ladder isn't entirely irrelevant, but I'm sure the Kespa players especially do a lot of their practice in-house If there was blatant imbalance with medivac boost, we would surely see ladder results that reflect that. It's not like most of Kespa is Terran, or all the best Terrans don't ladder. I don't see it as proof of imbalance for the lack of GM Terrans, but it's pretty good proof that they aren't OP (that we know of). I don't agree that it's imbalanced at all, I think it's potentially a bit strong, but people haven't gotten to grips with HoTS yet. I mean Creator for one was doing a lot of his old WoL builds pretty much with an MsC thrown in and getting torn apart by Polt (iirc) from a recent match I recall. It's more the other side of the coin, claiming that Terrans are currently in weak shape I kind of take umbrage with. If I seem to lobby that Terran is weak right now, I apologize. It's only a pushback response to these severely unwarranted kneejerk calls for Terran nerfs. Pages and pages of whining that boost and mines are OP, but no evidence, not even circumstantial. Just sandbox theorycrafting discussions that pretend every Terran is a god and Protoss and Zergs are eyeless, armless, braindead opponents that run around the map with their pants down 95% of the time.
Some are that said, but they get weeded out as you go up the leagues. Christ the amount of retarded builds my friends actually win games with sickens me 
I play Protoss btw, I am enjoying some of the challenges of dealing with a Terran race with new tools to pressure me.
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On March 29 2013 05:01 Wombat_NI wrote:
Em, every other game? Innovation made Leenock look like a scrub, Rain got 3-0ed despite showing solid play. Life is Life, for my money the absolute best player in the world at this particular time.
I do not personally like to call a single "best player in the world" simply because some people can beat the best player, but lose to others. If Innovation had gotten to the MLG finals, I really do believe he would have taken first place. TvT is currently in a weird state, which would explain his loss to Flash. It will really take another few months before TvT is as good as WoL's (this applies to the other mirrors too, except PvP will likely always stay total shit).
Innovation and Life are both top top top tier players in my mind.
In terms of balance, I think Life did so well because he followed such a WoL-esque style. I also think that Zerg was strong beforehand, and the buffs to the other races actually equalized it a bit, but, I still think Zerg's new units are lacking. Viper (the most well-thought out unit added...) is rarely used. Swarm hosts are getting more popular, but it's still a really iffy unit.
Terran's widow mine should actually be visible while it is off CD (when the attack is available). This would allow people to move around the map without always keeping detection with them 100%. Alternatively, they make it so it is only cloaked WHEN it's attack is on CD (when the attack is NOT available). This would help prevent the widow mine's from abusing early cloaking ability in early game. Also, medivacs should require energy for the boost, forcing there to be a "decision" when to use the spell instead of just always using it when active or for getting away. That requires 0 thought. Just make it require energy, so obvious!
Protoss' Oracle is stupidly strong, though. It does way too much DPS when compared to a unit like the banshee (for harassing). At least Banshees have to be microd vs marines! Oracles don't even do that! They just kill all the marines then a couple SCVs. The rest of the abilities are great though!
So, the current state of balance is not too far off, except they need to fix the abusive things (very early cloak, really high harass DPS for cheap) and add depth to the A-move/herpderp units (Ultralisks, zealots, every t3 air unit)
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I think a small patch based on the play seen in MLG and IEM would be a good idea. I understand that the players didn't have a lot of chance to explore the game yet, but this is actually a good reason to patch now, because it won't really disturb any significant strategic advances made. Furthermore, there is already ample evidence that there are imbalances at certain times in the game. We won't know how the overall balance will end up, but we can already tell that protoss is favored against zerg in the late game and that's a bad thing.
I would say they should add a trade off to the medivac speed boost, but if they don't want to commit to a change yet, they could simply increase the cooldown by 10 seconds while thinking of a better way to address the problem and prevent all the tournaments to be dominated by medivac play in the meantime.
They should also have either a small nerf to protoss air or a buff to zerg anti-air.
I think with these two changes the game is already in better shape, because they reflect obvious imbalances that will obscure more serious balance problems. There is no sense in waiting to see how the gameplay develops if there are glaring flaws, since it will actually halt progression.
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
On March 29 2013 05:15 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 05:01 Wombat_NI wrote:
Em, every other game? Innovation made Leenock look like a scrub, Rain got 3-0ed despite showing solid play. Life is Life, for my money the absolute best player in the world at this particular time. I do not personally like to call a single "best player in the world" simply because some people can beat the best player, but lose to others. If Innovation had gotten to the MLG finals, I really do believe he would have taken first place. TvT is currently in a weird state, which would explain his loss to Flash. It will really take another few months before TvT is as good as WoL's (this applies to the other mirrors too, except PvP will likely always stay total shit). Innovation and Life are both top top top tier players in my mind. In terms of balance, I think Life did so well because he followed such a WoL-esque style. I also think that Zerg was strong beforehand, and the buffs to the other races actually equalized it a bit, but, I still think Zerg's new units are lacking. Viper (the most well-thought out unit added...) is rarely used. Swarm hosts are getting more popular, but it's still a really iffy unit. Terran's widow mine should actually be visible while it is off CD (when the attack is available). This would allow people to move around the map without always keeping detection with them 100%. Alternatively, they make it so it is only cloaked WHEN it's attack is on CD (when the attack is NOT available). This would help prevent the widow mine's from abusing early cloaking ability in early game. Also, medivacs should require energy for the boost, forcing there to be a "decision" when to use the spell instead of just always using it when active or for getting away. That requires 0 thought. Just make it require energy, so obvious! Protoss' Oracle is stupidly strong, though. It does way too much DPS when compared to a unit like the banshee (for harassing). At least Banshees have to be microd vs marines! Oracles don't even do that! They just kill all the marines then a couple SCVs. The rest of the abilities are great though! So, the current state of balance is not too far off, except they need to fix the abusive things (very early cloak, really high harass DPS for cheap) and add depth to the A-move/herpderp units (Ultralisks, zealots, every t3 air unit)
I kind of judge Life pretty fairly, as especially towards the end of WoL I really, really hated watching Zerg, but he would do things that made you HAVE to respect his play.
I wanted Innovation to face him, as I feel his TvZ style is currently a bit better than Flash's, but they're both certainly among the very best players.
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My analysis of several of the proposed medivac changes:
The general feeling is that there should be a trade off for using the boost. This could be countered by pointing towards blink, however: 1. blink is an upgrade 2. stalkers are slower because of blink 3. the cooldown for blink is really meaningful because it's a combat ability, mistime it and your stalkers are dead. The two abilities are not equivalent and as such it's largely irrelevant, the decision to add a trade off has to depend on the merits of the argument. Several prominent community members (e.g. Inside the Game, State of the Game, the recent interview with Coach Park) have strongly argued for the need to change the ability, so to me it seems sensible to start looking into the various proposals that have been floating around.
Increased cooldown:
The current ability doesn't have a real opportunity cost, the cooldown is so low that you can use it almost as frequently as you want. For instance, you can use the ability to aggressively drop at some place and then flee with a newly available set of boosters. If the cooldown was longer you would have to decide whether to use it to drop aggressively or to save it to conserve units. The danger is that by nerfing the ability in this way you remove some of the stress placed on defenders, which many find interesting to watch. The notion is that as the cooldown becomes more meaningful it can become a one-time use ability in an offensive context, which puts a cap on the potential damage that drops can do. This same weakness exists in some of the other proposals obviously.
Increased damage taken:
I think this suggestion became a lot more popular after seeing Innovation doom drop Flash over and over into a ring of missile turrets. Thanks to the increased speed the turrets actually get in very few hits so it drastically reduces the damage taken. The same thing is true for stalker defenses against medivacs. One problem is that if you tune the damage increase so that for instance missile turrets are equally effective before/after, it becomes rather punishing in many other contexts. Something I felt was intriguing is that you can manage damage taken from missile turrets by having the booster end just as you fly your medivacs over his defenses, this way they take minimum damage, but there is a risk that you can no longer escape, whereas if you would boost later you would take additional damage, but you had the option to turn around.
Energy requirement:
For example, have it take 25 energy every time you use the ability. The main drawback is that it becomes very confusing: you pick up your army with your medivacs and try and speed away from the opponent's army and 'randomly' two out of the five medivacs don't have enough energy. I don't think it's realistic to expect pro gamers to accurately keep track of their medivacs energy, in practice it would probably end up fairly random, but at the same time it would be very rewarding for the terran player that could manage this. Another concern is that feedback becomes weaker in stopping medivacs, even if it will still be useful in preventing more use of the speed boost. An interesting trade off is that by using the thrusters you have less ability to heal your troups, so it creates an interesting decision in whether you should sacrifice mobility for power/attrition.
Another suggestion that I'm not covering since I don't think Blizzard will add something like that to the game.
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Northern Ireland23816 Posts
That Nazuri guy on Reddit that you linked to actually had some interesting ideas about the Speedivacs and the DeathCannon (Voidray), hope it's at least looked into
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EPT
