On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote: I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.
Transform that 4k gas to minerals. How many marines can you get with that? Well, it's nothing, it's not the reason why Taeja might have lost.
And you think 3 SCVs here and there is going to make that 4000 minerals magically appear.
You Zergs seem to be having trouble understanding this, so I'll spell it out clearly.
There is nothing.
For Terran.
To spend all their gas on.
Taking lots of bases is very difficult for Terran. Getting more SCVs than you need to mine more than 3 at a time is a waste of supply. Terran is not Zerg. Nor is it Protoss. There is no gas sink spellcaster that balances out your income. Terran T3 isn't even good. Zerg/Protoss T3 is. There's not a whole hell of a lot out there to spend the gas on, and insisting that reassigning those 6-9 SCVs from refineries to mineral patches is going to result in some crazy upswing in income that makes it all better doesn't make it so.
I don't understnad this. How can you not understand this?
It's not a matter of spending the gas, its a matter of not getting the gas.....
O_O
It doesn't make much difference in the end. You can only hold/mine from so many bases simultaneously. Those bases will be saturated regardless. That handful of minerals that you didn't spend on SCVs and refineries isn't that important. A few extra marines is not some huge boost to your army, and no, and doing things differently is not going to make some kind of big difference in your income. You'll have the same mineral income, less gas, and you'll still be doing the same things you'd be doing otherwise. The only difference is you'd have a few more marines.
All of this is completely peripheral to the actual point that was made in the first place, which is that it's completely absurd that you can suicide one of the most expensive possible armies in the game for free and then one minute later be maxed again on something else that autowins against the army your opponent had no choice but to make to beat your first army. It's not only the power of brood/corruptor/infestor against everything Terran, but also the power of instant tech switches into maxed out armies that require a completely different unit composition for Terran to fight. Terran could deal with it before by supplementing their army with a high ghost count to deal with both of Zerg's big T3 units. Now that option is gone, and without the ability to keep Zerg's econ/creep spread somewhat hindered with various pressure builds, things spiral out of control fast and we get to the late game which is very clearly imbalanced.
Everyone know mules are OP now . There was many many games that mules win for terran , in base trade , or semi base trade scenarios. IMO ability to lift buldings up in some situations is very strong , and add to this mules . Now terran player can land with CC and start gather minieras very fast , to fast with mules. Yes buff for zerg scout , but nerf at creep spread.
Everyone know how OP inject larva is. There was many many games that inject larva win for zerg. OR Everyone know how OP WG is. There was many many games that WG win for protoss.
Nope. Only mad people think it is more op to have mules than being able to make 21 drones at a time out of 3 hatches. I give you mules any day for the possibility to instantly saturate a base and be 30+ workers than my opponent 7 minutes into the game.
I think it is more like everybody knows zerg is op.
Recent tournament results show it. Zergs are 50% more than terrans on the ladder. Win rates in TvZ are close to 30%. When facts are speaking, people like you should keep it shut.
Hey, I'm fine with a massive buff to Corruptors. Give those guys some splash damage, and you'll be able to defend against infinity Mutas with 5-6 of them. Mutas are pretty bad against Corrupters right now anyway, the only thing the latter need is a force multiplier. This will also force Terran to spread their Vikings in TvZ, but without losing the game to a single Fungal. Or you can buff Hydras, that's fine too, they could do with 100 hp.
Even with splash, corruptors dont do shit against mutas. Corruptors dont to shit to phoenix either. You can just outrun them, you never ever ever ever need to fight them head on when you have a massive speed advantage. Hydra also do shit against mutas or even phonixes. They are to damn expensive against mass air. Their damage is like a stimmed marine, without the speed boost, without the extremely small collision, without the extremely low cost. Fungal not hitting air would be the wet fantasy of any toss out there. Build stargates, wait for Hydras a-move colossi and win. Pure fun. And as soon there is no more opposing air, corruptors are dead supply. No lift, no ground mode, nothing.
On July 23 2012 00:47 Shiori wrote: I think even if you revert the Queen buff, the mass Queen style will still be too powerful because even with kiting, 4 Hellions don't take on more than 2 Queens.
Just theorycrafting here, but if Zerg goes for the mass queen start (without the range), then you can build more then 4 hellions and keep him contained. Without gas (the mass queen strat takes very late gas) there would be only slow lings and queens, something hellions can manage.
And how do you contain 4 queens with 8 hellions exactly?
Just so you know, I have tried it and you can roast a queen or two, even some drones. But in total it is not worth it sacking so many hellions to do so little. You can't deny a quick third, even with 10 hellions. The best thing you can hope for is if your hellions forced a roach warren but most zergs just ignore them and keep droning.
I was talking about IF queens had the pre buff range. So you could kite them.
Nope. Only mad people think it is more op to have mules than being able to make 21 drones at a time out of 3 hatches. I give you mules any day for the possibility to instantly saturate a base and be 30+ workers than my opponent 7 minutes into the game.
I think it is more like everybody knows zerg is op.
Recent tournament results show it. Zergs are 50% more than terrans on the ladder. Win rates in TvZ are close to 30%. When facts are speaking, people like you should keep it shut.
LOL , if any terran let zerg take early 3 base vs terran , this terran in waek.., its not ZvP , terrans can easy punish zerg 3 base . other thing.. you can kill 5-10 drones in one hit , using hellions . Many terrans suicide hellions just to kill drones. Zerg players needs to build them faster then other races
And one more thing.. everyone know that early/ mid game units for zergs are waeker , then other races .. so zerg players must be one base ahead , or can make drones faster then other races.
Nope. Only mad people think it is more op to have mules than being able to make 21 drones at a time out of 3 hatches. I give you mules any day for the possibility to instantly saturate a base and be 30+ workers than my opponent 7 minutes into the game.
I think it is more like everybody knows zerg is op.
Recent tournament results show it. Zergs are 50% more than terrans on the ladder. Win rates in TvZ are close to 30%. When facts are speaking, people like you should keep it shut.
LOL , if any terran let zerg take early 3 base vs terran , this terran in waek.., its not ZvP , terrans can easy punish zerg 3 base . other thing.. you can kill 5-10 drones in one hit , using hellions . Many terrans suicide hellions just to kill drones. Zerg players needs to build them faster then other races
Nope. Only mad people think it is more op to have mules than being able to make 21 drones at a time out of 3 hatches. I give you mules any day for the possibility to instantly saturate a base and be 30+ workers than my opponent 7 minutes into the game.
I think it is more like everybody knows zerg is op.
Recent tournament results show it. Zergs are 50% more than terrans on the ladder. Win rates in TvZ are close to 30%. When facts are speaking, people like you should keep it shut.
LOL , if any terran let zerg take early 3 base vs terran , this terran in waek.., its not ZvP , terrans can easy punish zerg 3 base . other thing.. you can kill 5-10 drones in one hit , using hellions . Many terrans suicide hellions just to kill drones. Zerg players needs to build them faster then other races
I think you're still watching pre-patch TvZ.
I think you watch some other game. Now terran players adopt to this patch and they open banshe / mass hellions , they kill queens with banshes and then harras drones with hellions.
Nope. Only mad people think it is more op to have mules than being able to make 21 drones at a time out of 3 hatches. I give you mules any day for the possibility to instantly saturate a base and be 30+ workers than my opponent 7 minutes into the game.
I think it is more like everybody knows zerg is op.
Recent tournament results show it. Zergs are 50% more than terrans on the ladder. Win rates in TvZ are close to 30%. When facts are speaking, people like you should keep it shut.
LOL , if any terran let zerg take early 3 base vs terran , this terran in waek.., its not ZvP , terrans can easy punish zerg 3 base . other thing.. you can kill 5-10 drones in one hit , using hellions . Many terrans suicide hellions just to kill drones. Zerg players needs to build them faster then other races
Nope. Only mad people think it is more op to have mules than being able to make 21 drones at a time out of 3 hatches. I give you mules any day for the possibility to instantly saturate a base and be 30+ workers than my opponent 7 minutes into the game.
I think it is more like everybody knows zerg is op.
Recent tournament results show it. Zergs are 50% more than terrans on the ladder. Win rates in TvZ are close to 30%. When facts are speaking, people like you should keep it shut.
LOL , if any terran let zerg take early 3 base vs terran , this terran in waek.., its not ZvP , terrans can easy punish zerg 3 base . other thing.. you can kill 5-10 drones in one hit , using hellions . Many terrans suicide hellions just to kill drones. Zerg players needs to build them faster then other races
I think you're still watching pre-patch TvZ.
I think you watch some other game. Now terran players adopt to this patch and they open banshe / mass hellions , they kill queens with banshes and then harras drones with hellions.
Nope. Only mad people think it is more op to have mules than being able to make 21 drones at a time out of 3 hatches. I give you mules any day for the possibility to instantly saturate a base and be 30+ workers than my opponent 7 minutes into the game.
I think it is more like everybody knows zerg is op.
Recent tournament results show it. Zergs are 50% more than terrans on the ladder. Win rates in TvZ are close to 30%. When facts are speaking, people like you should keep it shut.
LOL , if any terran let zerg take early 3 base vs terran , this terran in waek.., its not ZvP , terrans can easy punish zerg 3 base . other thing.. you can kill 5-10 drones in one hit , using hellions . Many terrans suicide hellions just to kill drones. Zerg players needs to build them faster then other races
I think you're still watching pre-patch TvZ.
I think you watch some other game. Now terran players adopt to this patch and they open banshe / mass hellions , they kill queens with banshes and then harras drones with hellions.
2 queens beat 2 banshees, and banshees aren't so cheap to get
Nope. Only mad people think it is more op to have mules than being able to make 21 drones at a time out of 3 hatches. I give you mules any day for the possibility to instantly saturate a base and be 30+ workers than my opponent 7 minutes into the game.
I think it is more like everybody knows zerg is op.
Recent tournament results show it. Zergs are 50% more than terrans on the ladder. Win rates in TvZ are close to 30%. When facts are speaking, people like you should keep it shut.
LOL , if any terran let zerg take early 3 base vs terran , this terran in waek.., its not ZvP , terrans can easy punish zerg 3 base . other thing.. you can kill 5-10 drones in one hit , using hellions . Many terrans suicide hellions just to kill drones. Zerg players needs to build them faster then other races
I think you're still watching pre-patch TvZ.
I think you watch some other game. Now terran players adopt to this patch and they open banshe / mass hellions , they kill queens with banshes and then harras drones with hellions.
Being pretty much all in - If they don't kill a TON of workers with hellion Banshee they will have to macro up to 200/200 and hope their Zerg buddy fucks up so they can beat the double 200/200 army they face. You lose any map precense if you dont dod amage with hellion banshee.
Hey, I'm fine with a massive buff to Corruptors. Give those guys some splash damage, and you'll be able to defend against infinity Mutas with 5-6 of them. Mutas are pretty bad against Corrupters right now anyway, the only thing the latter need is a force multiplier. This will also force Terran to spread their Vikings in TvZ, but without losing the game to a single Fungal. Or you can buff Hydras, that's fine too, they could do with 100 hp.
Even with splash, corruptors dont do shit against mutas. Corruptors dont to shit to phoenix either. You can just outrun them, you never ever ever ever need to fight them head on when you have a massive speed advantage. Hydra also do shit against mutas or even phonixes. They are to damn expensive against mass air. Their damage is like a stimmed marine, without the speed boost, without the extremely small collision, without the extremely low cost. Fungal not hitting air would be the wet fantasy of any toss out there. Build stargates, wait for Hydras a-move colossi and win. Pure fun. And as soon there is no more opposing air, corruptors are dead supply. No lift, no ground mode, nothing.
I guess Thors are awful vs Mutas too, since you can just outrun them. Protoss shouldn't get Storm against Mutas either, since HTs are too slow, no need to fight them head on when you have a massive speed advantage. Clearly it is impossible to deal with Mutas without being able to immobilize them and deal aoe damage at the same time.
It's also really fun to read about Zerg units. Like Hydras, where "really slow" means "the same speed as most units in the game". Apparently, "too damn expensive" now means "cheaper than Stalkers, with twice the dps". Why do Protosses build Stalkers against Mutas, when they're so awful? Incidentally, Hydras are also faster than Stalkers on creep.
One reasonable point you do have is that Corruptors are a bit useless against Ground, and I'm all for making Corruption more useful. Still, isn't it funny how Terran needs to build 15+ Vikings against Broodlords, and then they instantly become useless after the techswitch to Ultras takes place. But that's perfectly balanced, right?
I want to see corruptors get some sort of Aerial spell to deal with Mutalisk (something that deals 10 vs armor 25 vs light in a small AoE or so), nerf Fungal vs Air and give Terran Vikings some buff so they actually deal with Corruptors. Corruptor vs Viking is silly onesided.
I guess Thors are awful vs Mutas too, since you can just outrun them. Protoss shouldn't get Storm against Mutas either, since HTs are too slow, no need to fight them head on when you have a massive speed advantage. Clearly it is impossible to deal with Mutas without being able to immobilize them and deal aoe damage at the same time.
Range 9.5 BONUS to light, can be repaired, Marine support, supported by towers. And guess what, mutas do not engage thors if the can avoid it and you will never catch Mutas with a Thor. And there again. Mutas dont fight HT head on. They just push them away from minerals and bases. But in ZvZ its not enough to push them away from your bases. You have to get them away from your overlords, every single building is easily sniped (imagine a single sniped warpgate means no more zealots for 1 minute). You cant prepare your expansion like T or P (add defense first, then expand)
It's also really fun to read about Zerg units. Like Hydras, where "really slow" means "the same speed as most units in the game". Apparently, "too damn expensive" now means "cheaper than Stalkers, with twice the dps". Why do Protosses build Stalkers against Mutas, when they're so awful? Incidentally, Hydras are also faster than Stalkers on creep.
Slow means: Slower than Stalkers off creep (where you have to go if you want to push), slower than stimmed marines (which terra WILL do if he wants to catch mutas). And yes, expensive. I gladly pay 25 minerals more for no speed reduction off creep, built in R6 and double HP. Yes stalkers suck agaist Mutas, but if they become more mobile (oooh.... blink, and there goes the speed bonus from creep) they do extremely well.
One reasonable point you do have is that Corruptors are a bit useless against Ground, and I'm all for making Corruption more useful. Still, isn't it funny how Terran needs to build 15+ Vikings against Broodlords, and then they instantly become useless after the techswitch to Ultras takes place. But that's perfectly balanced, right?
15 Vikings have nearly the same DPS as 15 Hydras (or 15 stimmed marines) using them like drops to snipe queens, hatches, overlords and drones is FAR from useless.
I guess Thors are awful vs Mutas too, since you can just outrun them. Protoss shouldn't get Storm against Mutas either, since HTs are too slow, no need to fight them head on when you have a massive speed advantage. Clearly it is impossible to deal with Mutas without being able to immobilize them and deal aoe damage at the same time.
Range 9.5 BONUS to light, can be repaired, Marine support, supported by towers. And guess what, mutas do not engage thors if the can avoid it and you will never catch Mutas with a Thor. Corruptors will have splash, can be transfused, have Queen support, can be supported by Spores, and, guess what, Mutas won't engage them and will avoid them. And there again. Mutas dont fight HT head on. They just push them away from minerals and bases. What more do you want?? But in ZvZ its not enough to push them away from your bases. You have to get them away from your overlords, every single building is easily sniped (imagine a single sniped warpgate means no more zealots for 1 minute). You cant prepare your expansion like T or P (add defense first, then expand) Overlord can be put in between your buildings. Your buildings are lower in numbers than T/P so less vulnerable. Keep mutas in mind when you throw your stuff out.
It's also really fun to read about Zerg units. Like Hydras, where "really slow" means "the same speed as most units in the game". Apparently, "too damn expensive" now means "cheaper than Stalkers, with twice the dps". Why do Protosses build Stalkers against Mutas, when they're so awful? Incidentally, Hydras are also faster than Stalkers on creep.
Slow means: Slower than Stalkers off creep (where you have to go if you want to push), slower than stimmed marines (which terra WILL do if he wants to catch mutas). And yes, expensive. I gladly pay 25 minerals more for no speed reduction off creep, built in R6 and double HP. Yes stalkers suck agaist Mutas, but if they become more mobile (oooh.... blink, and there goes the speed bonus from creep) they do extremely well. If you fight, you are either on his creep or your own. Mutaplayer wont be able to engage without spines. Thus, speed is not a problem...
One reasonable point you do have is that Corruptors are a bit useless against Ground, and I'm all for making Corruption more useful. Still, isn't it funny how Terran needs to build 15+ Vikings against Broodlords, and then they instantly become useless after the techswitch to Ultras takes place. But that's perfectly balanced, right?
15 Vikings have nearly the same DPS as 15 Hydras (or 15 stimmed marines) using them like drops to snipe queens, hatches, overlords and drones is FAR from useless.[b]Vikings are expensive as HELL. 25 3/3 adrenalings beat 15 Vikings pretty badly.
Biased much?
About preparing your base ahead of time; Zerg does it best of all. Spores root in 6 seconds and can be pre- built. Protoss/Terran have to wait till turrets/cannons are done before the spot is safe.....
On July 22 2012 08:59 xPabt wrote: I think ryung vs stephano game 3 is the epitome of zerg being too strong late game.
I was just about to say this too. That was just disgusting to watch.
Agreed. And I swear I'm going to punch out the next person that gives Stephano another free pass on the grounds that his control is "incredible." That was a fucking joke. Bl/Infestor/Ultra is absurdly cost and supply efficient.
Hey man, making lots of corruptors and parking your brood lords above ledges to prevent marines from getting right under them is really hard. Sometimes you have to select a control group of infestors and press the F key a few times too. GM level micro.
It was a genuinely good game until the giant corruptor fleet got out there. With fungals to hold the bio in place, there's just no way to get to the brood lords and kill them, and vikings are already bad enough against that army without having an upgrade disadvantage.
I probably lost 70-80% of games on ladder where Zerg got to that army comp, even before the queen buff. The only way I ever managed to kill it was by baiting Zerg into open ground and getting the most ridiculous arc in the world. Problem is, not all Zergs can be baited and not all maps have enough open ground to pull that off.
I want my old snipe back.
I agree, I think snipe was 1) prematurely nerfed, and 2) overnerfed. I think snipe should be reverted to it's original damage.
On July 22 2012 08:59 xPabt wrote: I think ryung vs stephano game 3 is the epitome of zerg being too strong late game.
I was just about to say this too. That was just disgusting to watch.
Agreed. And I swear I'm going to punch out the next person that gives Stephano another free pass on the grounds that his control is "incredible." That was a fucking joke. Bl/Infestor/Ultra is absurdly cost and supply efficient.
Ryung probably should have lost earlier after pushing out with too small an army but for stephano to win after having his expansions denied for so long and taking so many bad engagements is really just retarded. Terran taking a bad engagement means the game is over but for zerg the remax mechanic alows them to stick around and make a comeback due to the cost efficientness of thier late game army+ infestors.
I agree. I felt that Ryung had lost at one point, yet somehow he managed to comeback because Stephano did one horrible engagement when Ryung's army was at the choke point.
It's horrible to watch games with Infestor / Blood Lords because Terran simply doesn't have answer for them. Sure Terran beat that army composition from time to time but Viking / Tank / Marine / Medivac isn't the solid answer to BL / Infestor army. BC / Raven is the ultimate army composition but it's also far from solid and far too hard to achieve.
Terrans do have an answer for them, they just don't realize that maxed army engagements aren't going to go your way when the 60 supply of your army that can hit air is range 5 marines. Terrans still don't realize they need to build higher quality maxes, they still don't realize they need to build more production after they hit 200/200 to be able to remax faster, they don't realize that if you have 2000 gas in the bank at the 25 minute mark if they had expanded for more minerals and not taken more gases they would have had enough army supply to win the game earlier or they should have gone for a composition that actually spent the gas. When it comes to late game Terrans are still in the stone age in terms of strategy and mechanics.
And you don't realize that there's no advantage not mining the extra gas if you're saturated on the minerals.
EPT
