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On August 18 2011 22:23 Joseph123 wrote:IEM spoiler + Show Spoiler +After watching Huk vs Moonglade I'm seriously starting to feel desperate about PvZ. I have faced the fact that i can win PvT only if I'm 2 times better than my opponent and 5 times better if he goes for 1/1/1. But I don't get how a mediocre zerg can just mass infestor + roach and beat one of the best protoss players in the world..
Your attitude towards the game is absolutely pitiful. I hope you don't really believe that any of the above is true.
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Russian Federation142 Posts
On August 18 2011 17:35 Stiluz wrote:Show nested quote +I just got rolled by VTwhiplash when he kept warping dts and chargelots into my base from three sides while expanding. Warp prisms are sufficiently powerful. Protoss just have to figure out a way to get the dark shrine and robo out faster while still being safe. --- Terran Macro Whine Inc ---I've never heard any player bitch about how shit terran mech is and how underpowered terran is at the limit. I've lost ridiculous TvPs against mass colossus, archon, chargelot, immortal, ht even with suiciding every last scv for higher army limit and mules. It's too hard to get EMPs off against competent protoss players, and they will always land storms as soon as the colossi vaporize ghosts. The fact that archons are the most effective unit per supply cost doesn't help either. All terran players play with what basically is a loss timer. When game reaches a certain point, terran has lost. It's more evident against zerg than it is against protoss. Terran loses against zerg as soon as a hive tech finishes. Terran loses against protoss when they get a death ball of sufficient power. This timer pressures terrans into ending the game as quickly as possible, and that's partly why terrans love to abuse the early game. If blizzard wants less cheese/allins in sc2, terran needs a viable late game. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/KwarK/391.jpg) Have a cool picture to help keep cool. I mentioned this earlier, but Idra stated very recently that during his ZvT practice sessions with Demuslim, Terran would mech up, and go mass Ghosts (like 15-20ish). If the Terran splits the map, the Zerg army did not have a chance, even the feared BL/Infestor combo (mass EMP + mass snipe, + mech support). Before calling Terran mech shit, I would let the metagame develop a bit more to the point where the mech/ghost strategy is used, it certainly sounds viable. (And not just in theorycraft, but from actual top-level practice sessions) Obviously I'm not a GM or anything, but you can at least take Idra's word for it (inside the game, recent episodes).
Yea, it's true. On small maps, such as caverns, or shakuras plateau, terran can split the map and actually defend expansions with good tank positioning, but on the larger, more open maps, it's hopeless. Zerg can use roach mobility to deny expansions, or just counterattack into terran main and trade one zerg base for all of terran's production. It doesn't help that infestors completely shut down drops, and are the only worthwhile harass unit in the late game.
Vs protoss, terran is doomed in the long term. Doesn't help that tanks actually do more damage to a marauder with splash than they do to a zealot directly.
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I'd be fine with a decent HP buff to hydras and slight speed increase if they decrease the DPS significantly as well. The unit is already amazing in its niche roles. If you buffed the HP and speed without a nerf, how are you supposed to hold the two hatch nydus + hydra bust against a forge fast expand? How hard would stargate get shut down? Hydras are fast as hell on creep, people exaggerate their slowness greatly and if they had more speed they'd pretty much shut down any potential air harass even harder.
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On August 19 2011 00:50 Heavenly wrote:
I'd be fine with a decent HP buff to hydras and slight speed increase if they decrease the DPS significantly as well. The unit is already amazing in its niche roles. If you buffed the HP and speed without a nerf, how are you supposed to hold the two hatch nydus + hydra bust against a forge fast expand? How hard would stargate get shut down? Hydras are fast as hell on creep, people exaggerate their slowness greatly and if they had more speed they'd pretty much shut down any potential air harass even harder.
I agree. I don't think the Hydra is particularly useful right now, partly because of its poor speed off creep. I think increasing the speed would do a lot to help, but as you say it would probably need a damage nerf to keep it in line.
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Well after watching HuK's games I think we can pretty safely conclude that PvZ and PvT (especially PvT) are pretty onesided, even though every honest player already knew that.
User was warned for this post
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 19 2011 00:54 Shiori wrote:
Well after watching HuK's games I think we can pretty safely conclude that PvZ and PvT (especially PvT) are pretty onesided, even though every honest player already knew that. Really? I wonder how MC is doing so well then... Maybe players have bad days and can lose to other good players! If you actually watch those games, you can see HuK making some pretty serious mistakes when he needed to NOT make them.
On August 19 2011 00:54 Eufouria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 00:50 Heavenly wrote:
I'd be fine with a decent HP buff to hydras and slight speed increase if they decrease the DPS significantly as well. The unit is already amazing in its niche roles. If you buffed the HP and speed without a nerf, how are you supposed to hold the two hatch nydus + hydra bust against a forge fast expand? How hard would stargate get shut down? Hydras are fast as hell on creep, people exaggerate their slowness greatly and if they had more speed they'd pretty much shut down any potential air harass even harder.
I agree. I don't think the Hydra is particularly useful right now, partly because of its poor speed off creep. I think increasing the speed would do a lot to help, but as you say it would probably need a damage nerf to keep it in line.
Idk, I think a speed increase to the Hydra with a speed nerf to roaches would probably end up evening out the playing field without messing with damage.
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+ Show Spoiler [IEM] +On August 19 2011 00:59 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 00:54 Shiori wrote:
Well after watching HuK's games I think we can pretty safely conclude that PvZ and PvT (especially PvT) are pretty onesided, even though every honest player already knew that. Really? I wonder how MC is doing so well then... Maybe players have bad days and can lose to other good players! If you actually watch those games, you can see HuK making some pretty serious mistakes when he needed to NOT make them.
There's no point responding to players who make statements like that, just wait for a mod to clean it up. Also spoilers!
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On August 19 2011 00:54 Shiori wrote:bad post bad poster.
Balance discussion thread
Not random whine based on a couple of bo3s thread.
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On August 19 2011 01:03 simbot wrote:Balance discussion thread Not random whine based on a couple of bo3s thread.
Couple of Bo3s? Protoss has been doing poorly for more than a month now, and people are still chalking it up to us being "rigid" or "not exploring options." The fact of the matter is that we have very weak early scouting (read: none) and pretty much no early units that do anything (viz. harassment, but it would be nice even if the zealot was marginally useful without charge).
Bo3s at the professional level (especially when they accumulate over months) are probably the best evidence of imbalance we have. But okay, if you want to be condescending you can do that, too.
+ Show Spoiler +To the other guy: MC got obliterated in the GSL by people of roughly his skill level. To acknowledge that he can decimate foreign players is hardly evidence that Protoss is strong. HuK got CRUSHED in games that he was winning again players like Moonglade and Tarson, who, while decent for foreign players, can't even be compared to HuK .Tarson in game 2 played terribly, but since the ghost is so strong, a single emp changed the course of a game that HuK was miles ahead in. How, exactly, is that balance? Should HuK be expected to have literally impeccable map awareness and micro or else face certain defeat from someone who possessed neither?
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On August 18 2011 17:35 Stiluz wrote:Show nested quote +I just got rolled by VTwhiplash when he kept warping dts and chargelots into my base from three sides while expanding. Warp prisms are sufficiently powerful. Protoss just have to figure out a way to get the dark shrine and robo out faster while still being safe. --- Terran Macro Whine Inc ---I've never heard any player bitch about how shit terran mech is and how underpowered terran is at the limit. I've lost ridiculous TvPs against mass colossus, archon, chargelot, immortal, ht even with suiciding every last scv for higher army limit and mules. It's too hard to get EMPs off against competent protoss players, and they will always land storms as soon as the colossi vaporize ghosts. The fact that archons are the most effective unit per supply cost doesn't help either. All terran players play with what basically is a loss timer. When game reaches a certain point, terran has lost. It's more evident against zerg than it is against protoss. Terran loses against zerg as soon as a hive tech finishes. Terran loses against protoss when they get a death ball of sufficient power. This timer pressures terrans into ending the game as quickly as possible, and that's partly why terrans love to abuse the early game. If blizzard wants less cheese/allins in sc2, terran needs a viable late game. Have a cool picture to help keep cool. I mentioned this earlier, but Idra stated very recently that during his ZvT practice sessions with Demuslim, Terran would mech up, and go mass Ghosts (like 15-20ish). If the Terran splits the map, the Zerg army did not have a chance, even the feared BL/Infestor combo (mass EMP + mass snipe, + mech support). Before calling Terran mech shit, I would let the metagame develop a bit more to the point where the mech/ghost strategy is used, it certainly sounds viable. (And not just in theorycraft, but from actual top-level practice sessions) Obviously I'm not a GM or anything, but you can at least take Idra's word for it (inside the game, recent episodes).
that srat is unexplored and it can work ya, but zerg still has room to improve with infestors as well. for example 1 infestor can NP a ghost and emp the other ghost. that would render all the ghosts virtually useless if the zerg controls it right. i dont know the range of emp but i do know for a fact its shorter then the range 9 of neural parasite. so it should be fairly easy to NP a ghost and emp the rest of the ghost clump.
infestors are starting to be the main backbone of zerg armies so id assume that as the match up evoles zerg players will start to take more action in protecting there infestors and NPing key units like ghosts, HTs, etc etc. its actually not that hard to NP like 2 or 3 HTs and feed back the rest of the HTs.
i know idra is a good player and im a huge fan of his, but he does not seem to be the type to evolve and change his style of play very often... which is why he thinks certain builds are "unbeatable" NP is insanely strong if used on the right units.
as a zerg player i can say that i really dont like how zerg is, just like protoss, is starting to balanced around single unit times like infestor and broodlord. without infestors the zerg race really isnt all that terrifying and is pretty weak. more and more zergs are starting to find infestors mandatory because of how much they help match ups and how well they deal with terran and toss death balls.
i can also say the same thing about how protoss NEEDS sentries and proper forcefield placements in order to survive atks. without sentries and proper forcefields a toss army would get utterly destroyed by a good player. i really dont like that fact and it needs to change. a race shouldnt be severely handicapped just because they dont make a certain type of unit.
i also REALLY hate how this game is turning into a "counter" game. all game long is like im trying to hard counter ur units while ur trying to counter mines. if he makes mass marines then i have to hard counter with banelings or tech to infestors really fast to hard counter those marines. if i go mass infestors then he goes mass ghost to counter.
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"a single emp changed the course of a game that HuK was miles ahead in."
25 marines walk into a bar and ask the bartender where is the counter. He points and they sit happily. Then 2 banelings walk into the bar and kill all of them.
The moral of the story is spread out your units of couse emp will demolish you if you have all of your sentries and ht's in 1 hotkey in a giant ball. Just as a walking into banelings would own your marines.
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On August 19 2011 01:28 Ballistixz wrote:
that srat is unexplored and it can work ya, but zerg still has room to improve with infestors as well. for example 1 infestor can NP a ghost and emp the other ghost. that would render all the ghosts virtually useless if the zerg controls it right. i dont know the range of emp but i do know for a fact its shorter then the range 9 of neural parasite. so it should be fairly easy to NP a ghost and emp the rest of the ghost clump.
infestors are starting to be the main backbone of zerg armies so id assume that as the match up evoles zerg players will start to take more action in protecting there infestors and NPing key units like ghosts, HTs, etc etc. its actually not that hard to NP like 2 or 3 HTs and feed back the rest of the HTs.
i know idra is a good player and im a huge fan of his, but he does not seem to be the type to evolve and change his style of play very often... which is why he thinks certain builds are "unbeatable" NP is insanely strong if used on the right units.
as a zerg player i can say that i really dont like how zerg is, lust like protoss, is starting to balanced around single unit times like infestor and broodlord. without infestors the zerg race really isnt all that terrifying and is pretty weak. more and more zergs are starting to find infestors mandatory because of how much they help match ups and how well they deal with terran and toss death balls.
i can also say the same thing about how protoss NEEDS sentries and proper forcefield placements in order to survive atks. without sentries and proper forcefields a toss army would get utterly destroyed by a good player. i really dont like that fact and it needs to change. a race shouldnt be severely handicapped just because they dont make a certain type of unit.
EMP is range 10, 12 counting the EMP radius. I agree with your comments about Idra and zerg exploration. Even if ghost becomes the "magic" solution in TvZ, we'd still need another month to see if there is a good zerg answer to it.
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oh i thought emp was like range 7. i stand corrected then. my point still remains the same tho.
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On August 19 2011 01:40 Tippecanoe wrote:
"a single emp changed the course of a game that HuK was miles ahead in."
25 marines walk into a bar and ask the bartender where is the counter. He points and they sit happily. Then 2 banelings walk into the bar and kill all of them.
The moral of the story is spread out your units of couse emp will demolish you if you have all of your sentries and ht's in 1 hotkey in a giant ball. Just as a walking into banelings would own your marines.
Oh, I didn't realize Banelings were an instant cast range 10 attack.
No wonder all the Terran players are so good, that sounds so hard to play against!
(Terrible comparison, get out.)
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On August 19 2011 01:47 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 01:40 Tippecanoe wrote:
"a single emp changed the course of a game that HuK was miles ahead in."
25 marines walk into a bar and ask the bartender where is the counter. He points and they sit happily. Then 2 banelings walk into the bar and kill all of them.
The moral of the story is spread out your units of couse emp will demolish you if you have all of your sentries and ht's in 1 hotkey in a giant ball. Just as a walking into banelings would own your marines. Oh, I didn't realize Banelings were an instant cast range 10 attack. No wonder all the Terran players are so good, that sounds so hard to play against! (Terrible comparison, get out.)
his point was that if u drop 2 +2 upgrade banelings into a clump of marines and the marines DO NOT split/move out of the way then u WILL loose a ton of marines. maybe not all of them, but a good percentage of them for sure.
btw, if u drop 2 banes in the center of 25 marine clump u will loose atleast 10+ of them.
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On August 17 2011 05:57 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 04:24 DragonDefonce wrote:On August 17 2011 03:41 BUfels wrote:On August 17 2011 03:13 xlava wrote:On August 17 2011 03:10 Aletheia27 wrote:
With regard to infestors being overpowered, I feel like the argument goes along the same lines as how forcefields were considered overpowered for toss players. I think people just haven't learened to adapt to them yet and adjust their play. Just my 2 cents. Kind of. Except that Zerg doesn't depend on infestors for surviving. Without sentries Protoss dies to every early game aggression. Zerg can live without infestors. Forcefields aren't overpowered, they're a necessity. Yes, they definitely do. You can't beat turtle protoss 200/200 deathball without them. The deathball is already good enough(and turtle protoss is getting popular again), it does not need a buff. Neither zerg nor terran is supposed to beat toss in 200/200 fight. Like ever. Zerg loses the initial fight but takes out as much of the deathball as it can and win by resupplying. If zerg is even with protoss in a 200/200 fight, something is wrong. And the current state of the game is so that with hive tech and infestors, zerg can beat protoss deathball. If you break even in a max army fight as protoss, you are as good as dead. And this "turtle toss" doesn't work on a fundamental level because of broodlords. The only thing more ridiculous than turtling against broodlords would be to turtle against tanks this would be true if ur macro sux and the protoss army is so good that ppl who have bad macro can still win just by turtling to a 200 max army. so many times i play a masters toss who floats 2k minerals but still only have 7-8 gates LOL? if ur actually good u can remax just as fast with mass gateways. so NO 200 army shuld be even across all races if composition is good. the reason protoss usually wins is cus zerg is going a tier 2 army comp of roach corruptor in order to get ahead in bases and get map control. if the zerg has tier 3 units, it should be even or ahead of toss since zerg tier 3 is more inaccessible.
Let me rephrase myself since it seems I wasn't being very clear.
Terran or Zerg army SHOULD NOT BE ABLE to straight up beat Protoss in 200/200 fight (with the exception of Terran mech). The problem with the game at the current state is that they are perfectly capable of doing so.
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On August 19 2011 01:40 Tippecanoe wrote:
"a single emp changed the course of a game that HuK was miles ahead in."
25 marines walk into a bar and ask the bartender where is the counter. He points and they sit happily. Then 2 banelings walk into the bar and kill all of them.
The moral of the story is spread out your units of couse emp will demolish you if you have all of your sentries and ht's in 1 hotkey in a giant ball. Just as a walking into banelings would own your marines.
This is exactly what it means to be unbalanced it takes less skill to emp and more skill to spread units out.
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Russian Federation142 Posts
Yea protoss should be able to turtle three base until max. That's the definition of macro, right? NR20.
Protoss army is just as mobile as terran bio. No reason to be granted exclusive OP status.
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On August 19 2011 01:40 Tippecanoe wrote:
"a single emp changed the course of a game that HuK was miles ahead in."
25 marines walk into a bar and ask the bartender where is the counter. He points and they sit happily. Then 2 banelings walk into the bar and kill all of them.
The moral of the story is spread out your units of couse emp will demolish you if you have all of your sentries and ht's in 1 hotkey in a giant ball. Just as a walking into banelings would own your marines.
The true moral of the story is that emp has range 10 and banes are melee.
Thank you come again.
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Protoss army is just as mobile as terran bio
No it isn't.
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EPT
