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On September 03 2014 04:09 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 10:19 Hider wrote:Going into HOTS, there should obviously have been a focus on increasing the skill-cap of protoss and Zerg in order to improve overall balance. This was painfully obvious to everyone. Even the clowns at Blizzard managed to work it out. Just look at the new units. Both Protoss and Zerg got spellcasters (Protoss even got two if you count the mcore) while Terran got the warhound. For better or worse, Bliz realized that introducing the ultimate a-move unit was probably not a good way to balance the game. I will say they got the widow mine right, and they seem to have realized that as well. Requiring that Zerg splits their units in an engagement adds symmetry to the control requirements in TvZ and made that matchup much healthier. Their focus on the widow mine (especially in TvP) is their acknowledgement that a similar equalizer is required in that matchup as well - although their only accomplishment so far has been the eradication of templar openings. Both ironically and unfortunately, the mcore probably ended up lowering the Protoss skillcap. That's a discussion for another day though.
Well Korean protosses actually performs better than foreign protosses which is an argument against the lower skillcap of protoss. Statistically speaking at least, protoss being easy cannot be justified.
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On September 03 2014 04:06 Hider wrote:
- Terran has too many early game options vs Zerg and Terran. Vs Zerg I would like to see a small reduction in baneling research time/research-cost. Vs zerg. it's gonna be interesting if the Snute-style becoems standard. It looks really strong so it could swing the game in the favour of zerg over the next couple of months.
- TvP is still pretty !@#$%^&* lame to watch. I really liked MC vs Flash though due to Chargelots openings being much more interesting to watch.But let's see how this matchup develops balance-wise.
- Still wouldn't mind turrets not requiring ebay. Would make it easier to be safe in TvT and TvP.
Which openings in particular do you consider problematic? I consider the matchup to be very symmetrical as both sides have a reasonable likelihood of scouting all-ins ahead of time. In the midgame I think zerg roach and/or hydra play hits a lot harder than Terran equivalents.
The 2rax can be pretty lame, but is shut down by standard builds. The recent "sneak lings past reaper" opening seems to be the zerg equivalent, and might even have a higher likelihood of killing the Terran. Sure, the game goes on, but you almost never see a Terran recover from a cancelled CC.
I agree that the TvP metagame is an issue. No ebay for turrets would make sense but might hit PvT pretty hard.
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On September 03 2014 04:22 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:06 Hider wrote:
- Terran has too many early game options vs Zerg and Terran. Vs Zerg I would like to see a small reduction in baneling research time/research-cost. Vs zerg. it's gonna be interesting if the Snute-style becoems standard. It looks really strong so it could swing the game in the favour of zerg over the next couple of months.
- TvP is still pretty !@#$%^&* lame to watch. I really liked MC vs Flash though due to Chargelots openings being much more interesting to watch.But let's see how this matchup develops balance-wise.
- Still wouldn't mind turrets not requiring ebay. Would make it easier to be safe in TvT and TvP. Which openings in particular do you consider problematic? I consider the matchup to be very symmetrical as both sides have a reasonable likelihood of scouting all-ins ahead of time. In the midgame I think zerg roach and/or hydra play hits a lot harder than Terran equivalents. The 2rax can be pretty lame, but is shut down by standard builds. The recent "sneak lings past reaper" opening seems to be the zerg equivalent, and might even have a higher likelihood of killing the Terran. Sure, the game goes on, but you almost never see a Terran recover from a cancelled CC. I agree that the TvP metagame is an issue. No ebay for turrets would make sense but might hit PvT pretty hard.
Well I think its just the large amount of options that makes it difficult for zerg to defend. I feel like over the last month I've seen too many TvZ games ending around 10-13th minute mark. Ofc it might be temporary thing, but I feel like slightly faster baneling speed would help in some scenarios where zerg gets far behind because he hasn't reserached speed yet. Slightly faster baneling speed would make early midgame/late early game slightly less volatile I believe.
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On September 03 2014 04:22 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:06 Hider wrote:
- Terran has too many early game options vs Zerg and Terran. Vs Zerg I would like to see a small reduction in baneling research time/research-cost. Vs zerg. it's gonna be interesting if the Snute-style becoems standard. It looks really strong so it could swing the game in the favour of zerg over the next couple of months.
- TvP is still pretty !@#$%^&* lame to watch. I really liked MC vs Flash though due to Chargelots openings being much more interesting to watch.But let's see how this matchup develops balance-wise.
- Still wouldn't mind turrets not requiring ebay. Would make it easier to be safe in TvT and TvP. Which openings in particular do you consider problematic? I consider the matchup to be very symmetrical as both sides have a reasonable likelihood of scouting all-ins ahead of time. In the midgame I think zerg roach and/or hydra play hits a lot harder than Terran equivalents. The 2rax can be pretty lame, but is shut down by standard builds. The recent "sneak lings past reaper" opening seems to be the zerg equivalent, and might even have a higher likelihood of killing the Terran. Sure, the game goes on, but you almost never see a Terran recover from a cancelled CC. I agree that the TvP metagame is an issue. No ebay for turrets would make sense but might hit PvT pretty hard.
I´m sorry but cancelling CC and 2-tax are not really the same. And what is this standard build that shuts dow 2-rax? You can quite easily stop those slow lings by keeping a reaper home or building your CC behind a wall. Countering 2-rax is a lot more difficult and it will straight kill most of the time even if you go 15-pool into hatch.
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On September 03 2014 04:09 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2014 10:19 Hider wrote:Going into HOTS, there should obviously have been a focus on increasing the skill-cap of protoss and Zerg in order to improve overall balance. This was painfully obvious to everyone. Even the clowns at Blizzard managed to work it out. Just look at the new units. Both Protoss and Zerg got spellcasters (Protoss even got two if you count the mcore) while Terran got the warhound. For better or worse, Bliz realized that introducing the ultimate a-move unit was probably not a good way to balance the game. I will say they got the widow mine right, and they seem to have realized that as well. Requiring that Zerg splits their units in an engagement adds symmetry to the control requirements in TvZ and made that matchup much healthier. Their focus on the widow mine (especially in TvP) is their acknowledgement that a similar equalizer is required in that matchup as well - although their only accomplishment so far has been the eradication of templar openings. Both ironically and unfortunately, the mcore probably ended up lowering the Protoss skillcap. That's a discussion for another day though.
I think Medivac boost significantly increased the difficulty of TvP past the early game. I would gladly trade overcharge for slow Medivacs, as a Protoss player. Sure it helps in the early game, but as the game goes on it becomes less and less effective while Medivac boost only becomes more powerful. If you're out of position, you literally can't warp in/kill the medivacs fast enough before they drop stuff in your base. Warping in 4 Stalkers used to mean the end of a drop. Now it's just a waste of minerals because they'll boost over you then kill the Stalkers.
So in Hots as Protoss you definitely have to have much better minimap awareness and map vision. In my eyes it requires quite a bit more skill than it used to.
MC used some interesting charge/Storm strategies vs MC (but in the end lost anyway). I think I'd like to see more of this style as it's a lot more interesting than Protoss having to Turtle on Colossus and take a 3rd base.
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They seriously have to do something about the widow mine in relation to probes... I saw a medivac enter my base. I instantly ordered probes to go from my main to my natural. Then, the guy unloads his units/mines and is still able to kill the majority of my probes. This feels like the "party hat" feature. The game isn't supposed to actually be like this, lol. I must be the only one who can watch the minimap or something, because it's pretty clear there is nothing I can do...
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I'm not really following this thread, and this is my first post in it.
What is the consensus on the Swarm Host? Does everyone hate it? How can anyone be in favor of a free infinite unit in strategy game like SC? 
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On September 03 2014 12:18 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:I'm not really following this thread, and this is my first post in it. What is the consensus on the Swarm Host? Does everyone hate it? How can anyone be in favor of a free infinite unit in strategy game like SC?
Probably the same reason they are in favor of free infinite ammo on all units. Also free gasoline for tanks, infinite stamina for marines, zero need for sleep, and compressed time association so that wars are over in 10-30 minutes instead of 10-30 days/months/years.
But sure, the free units is the one that is unfair.
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On September 03 2014 12:18 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:I'm not really following this thread, and this is my first post in it. What is the consensus on the Swarm Host? Does everyone hate it? How can anyone be in favor of a free infinite unit in strategy game like SC?
If you haven't read the thread before, I'll summarize for you.
The Swarm Host is not a balance problem, so it's not discussed. Its design is not popular among the majority of people, but it is apparently necessary in both the ZvMech and PvZ MU. So if removed, Z would need something equally strong given to it.
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On September 03 2014 08:10 playa wrote:
They seriously have to do something about the widow mine in relation to probes... I saw a medivac enter my base. I instantly ordered probes to go from my main to my natural. Then, the guy unloads his units/mines and is still able to kill the majority of my probes. This feels like the "party hat" feature. The game isn't supposed to actually be like this, lol. I must be the only one who can watch the minimap or something, because it's pretty clear there is nothing I can do...
Replay please?
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On September 03 2014 12:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 12:18 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:I'm not really following this thread, and this is my first post in it. What is the consensus on the Swarm Host? Does everyone hate it? How can anyone be in favor of a free infinite unit in strategy game like SC? Probably the same reason they are in favor of free infinite ammo on all units. Also free gasoline for tanks, infinite stamina for marines, zero need for sleep, and compressed time association so that wars are over in 10-30 minutes instead of 10-30 days/months/years. But sure, the free units is the one that is unfair.
Swarm hosts definitely is one of the most boring units in the game though. Foreigners especially make a dreadful use out of them...
Actually foreigners should be forbidden the use of any kind of siege units like SHs or siege tanks.
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On September 03 2014 04:16 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:09 r691175002 wrote:On September 02 2014 10:19 Hider wrote:
Well Korean protosses actually performs better than foreign protosses which is an argument against the lower skillcap of protoss.
How does that prove anything? Korean anything does better than foreign anything.
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On September 03 2014 08:10 playa wrote:
They seriously have to do something about the widow mine in relation to probes... I saw a medivac enter my base. I instantly ordered probes to go from my main to my natural. Then, the guy unloads his units/mines and is still able to kill the majority of my probes. This feels like the "party hat" feature. The game isn't supposed to actually be like this, lol. I must be the only one who can watch the minimap or something, because it's pretty clear there is nothing I can do...
LoL? you must be pretty slow then. WE terran have way less time to react to for example storm, and we stil manage to split. You have to let some probes be there.. losing 1-2 probes is nothing.. you have to spot it late tho... mines takes 3 sec to burrow and by that time you should have had time to put probes away...
You know what ya have to stop???? STORM DROP. thats impossible to stop.
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Northern Ireland27046 Posts
On September 03 2014 23:17 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 12:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 03 2014 12:18 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:I'm not really following this thread, and this is my first post in it. What is the consensus on the Swarm Host? Does everyone hate it? How can anyone be in favor of a free infinite unit in strategy game like SC? Probably the same reason they are in favor of free infinite ammo on all units. Also free gasoline for tanks, infinite stamina for marines, zero need for sleep, and compressed time association so that wars are over in 10-30 minutes instead of 10-30 days/months/years. But sure, the free units is the one that is unfair. Swarm hosts definitely is one of the most boring units in the game though. Foreigners especially make a dreadful use out of them... Actually foreigners should be forbidden the use of any kind of siege units like SHs or siege tanks.
I don't know man, this isn't every foreigner but if anything I see them utilising the style better, at least vs good Kr players. Snute being a notable example. I actually enjoyed the first game he pulled them out vs herO but the series did degenerate after that.
I really don't think they're that bad at the highest level in ZvP, it forces Protoss to circumvent and split their forces up. Without them I believe you'd see far more accumulation of deathballs into kill timings with 1/2 big engagements and Muta base trade funkiness, which are for me the least satisfying type of games.
The horrors are when it's average foreign Z vs average foreign P, my god :p
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On September 04 2014 01:09 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 23:17 ZenithM wrote:On September 03 2014 12:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 03 2014 12:18 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:I'm not really following this thread, and this is my first post in it. What is the consensus on the Swarm Host? Does everyone hate it? How can anyone be in favor of a free infinite unit in strategy game like SC? Probably the same reason they are in favor of free infinite ammo on all units. Also free gasoline for tanks, infinite stamina for marines, zero need for sleep, and compressed time association so that wars are over in 10-30 minutes instead of 10-30 days/months/years. But sure, the free units is the one that is unfair. Swarm hosts definitely is one of the most boring units in the game though. Foreigners especially make a dreadful use out of them... Actually foreigners should be forbidden the use of any kind of siege units like SHs or siege tanks. I don't know man, this isn't every foreigner but if anything I see them utilising the style better, at least vs good Kr players. Snute being a notable example. I actually enjoyed the first game he pulled them out vs herO but the series did degenerate after that. I really don't think they're that bad at the highest level in ZvP, it forces Protoss to circumvent and split their forces up. Without them I believe you'd see far more accumulation of deathballs into kill timings with 1/2 big engagements and Muta base trade funkiness, which are for me the least satisfying type of games. The horrors are when it's average foreign Z vs average foreign P, my god :p
Yeah that's what I mean. It's like: "We're both gentlemen after all, let's sip some tea and go for the 1-hour game, shall we?"
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On September 03 2014 23:21 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 04:16 Hider wrote:On September 03 2014 04:09 r691175002 wrote:On September 02 2014 10:19 Hider wrote:
Well Korean protosses actually performs better than foreign protosses which is an argument against the lower skillcap of protoss. How does that prove anything? Korean anything does better than foreign anything.
I am thinking in terms of win/rates. In WCS Korea, protosses have better win/rates than the win/rates of protoss in Aliguac.
If protoss really was the easiest race, we would expect to see the opposite (though note that sample size is small in WCS Korea)
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On September 04 2014 01:29 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2014 01:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 03 2014 23:17 ZenithM wrote:On September 03 2014 12:37 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 03 2014 12:18 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:I'm not really following this thread, and this is my first post in it. What is the consensus on the Swarm Host? Does everyone hate it? How can anyone be in favor of a free infinite unit in strategy game like SC? Probably the same reason they are in favor of free infinite ammo on all units. Also free gasoline for tanks, infinite stamina for marines, zero need for sleep, and compressed time association so that wars are over in 10-30 minutes instead of 10-30 days/months/years. But sure, the free units is the one that is unfair. Swarm hosts definitely is one of the most boring units in the game though. Foreigners especially make a dreadful use out of them... Actually foreigners should be forbidden the use of any kind of siege units like SHs or siege tanks. I don't know man, this isn't every foreigner but if anything I see them utilising the style better, at least vs good Kr players. Snute being a notable example. I actually enjoyed the first game he pulled them out vs herO but the series did degenerate after that. I really don't think they're that bad at the highest level in ZvP, it forces Protoss to circumvent and split their forces up. Without them I believe you'd see far more accumulation of deathballs into kill timings with 1/2 big engagements and Muta base trade funkiness, which are for me the least satisfying type of games. The horrors are when it's average foreign Z vs average foreign P, my god :p Yeah that's what I mean. It's like: "We're both gentlemen after all, let's sip some tea and go for the 1-hour game, shall we?"
Lol soo good the comparison, so precise the joke 
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On September 03 2014 23:13 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2014 08:10 playa wrote:
They seriously have to do something about the widow mine in relation to probes... I saw a medivac enter my base. I instantly ordered probes to go from my main to my natural. Then, the guy unloads his units/mines and is still able to kill the majority of my probes. This feels like the "party hat" feature. The game isn't supposed to actually be like this, lol. I must be the only one who can watch the minimap or something, because it's pretty clear there is nothing I can do... Replay please?
I'll second the replay request. If the wm buff has proved anything in relation to harass it's that it very seldom makes a difference. At the top level, all the protosses react well and leave 1 probe to blow up as safety. If anything, it's proven that Protoss can micro and micro well at that. In situations where an entire mineral line blows, the reaction time is so slow that the effect would've likely been the same if an 8 marines medivac had unloaded and given the same time to hit the probes.
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In my opinion both, the swarmhost and the tempest should be removed.
The problem is that the protoss deathball becomes literally unbeatable, once the protoss adds tempests to his composition because he can just snipe key units from a safe distance, with the deathball sitting perfectly positioned below them.
This means that the zerg or terran needs to attack in this position if he doesn't want to slowly lose the game which will usually result in a horrible trade because the deathball sits there in a perfect position.
the only option for zerg vs this style is to use mass swarmhost viper to starve him to death with free units while terran has no options at all to beat this. (except mass raven, which isn't really affordable when you play bio.)
About swarmhost i think there isn't much to say. They are just the most boring unit in the game and leads to long drawn out stalemates where you see free units dieing to mass aoe for 1 hour until one player is out of ressources.
Many player will say that you can't remove the sawrmhost because it's the only option to beat the protoss deathball but if tempests get removed too, zerg can get better engagements and broodlords will be viable again.
Yeah i know, everyone is scared of broodlord infestor because of its history but since then infestors have been nerfed and voidrays buffed so i don't think we will see that unbeatable "GGlord winfestor" anymore. And seriously, BL/festor was more entertaining than mass swarmhost stalemates.
Also terran would have a chance in tvp lategame again and mech could be more viable without tempests.
Zerg might need something to compensate vs terran mech, but that shouldn't be difficult to balance.
Just something like making corruptor shots ignore pdd would do wonders here.
A side affect could be that we will see collossus wars again in pvp but i don't think a mirror matchup should take priority over 2 non-mirror matchup.
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On September 04 2014 05:24 Charoisaur wrote:
In my opinion both, the swarmhost and the tempest should be removed.
The problem is that the protoss deathball becomes literally unbeatable, once the protoss adds tempests to his composition because he can just snipe key units from a safe distance, with the deathball sitting perfectly positioned below them.
This means that the zerg or terran needs to attack in this position if he doesn't want to slowly lose the game which will usually result in a horrible trade because the deathball sits there in a perfect position.
the only option for zerg vs this style is to use mass swarmhost viper to starve him to death with free units while terran has no options at all to beat this. (except mass raven, which isn't really affordable when you play bio.)
About swarmhost i think there isn't much to say. They are just the most boring unit in the game and leads to long drawn out stalemates where you see free units dieing to mass aoe for 1 hour until one player is out of ressources.
Many player will say that you can't remove the sawrmhost because it's the only option to beat the protoss deathball but if tempests get removed too, zerg can get better engagements and broodlords will be viable again.
Yeah i know, everyone is scared of broodlord infestor because of its history but since then infestors have been nerfed and voidrays buffed so i don't think we will see that unbeatable "GGlord winfestor" anymore. And seriously, BL/festor was more entertaining than mass swarmhost stalemates.
Also terran would have a chance in tvp lategame again and mech could be more viable without tempests.
Zerg might need something to compensate vs terran mech, but that shouldn't be difficult to balance.
Just something like making corruptor shots ignore pdd would do wonders here.
A side affect could be that we will see collossus wars again in pvp but i don't think a mirror matchup should take priority over 2 non-mirror matchup.
I don't think the Tempest is that big of a problem at the professional level. If you can show games where the Tempest is overpowered then sure, I'll believe you. But to just say the deathball is "unbeatable." is silly. PDDs work really well against Tempests. You might say well, you can just feedback them, but I would counter with "well, Ghosts can EMP" them and then it because a micro dance again similar to the one we currently have in late game TvP.
Without the Swarm Host Zerg would have problems against Protoss. It's the only effective way of dealing with Void Ray / HT compositions, really.
And Mech would be a LOT stronger vs Z and could require rebalancing.
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EPT
