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On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance 
I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere.
I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds.
Balance
Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs.
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On August 25 2011 07:07 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere. I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds. Balance Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs.
You also have to research storm, the time cost of which has to be amortized across the life of how many HT's you create. If you only ever create a few HT's, the balance swings heavily in favor of the infestor on time. You need to create X number HT's (and I'm not sure what that X is, but it should be simple math), to make it equal out in total time balance with the 'festor.
Of course, the flip of that is that as you go over that X, Storm starts to become more and more time efficient, to the point that the total time cost is amortized to near 0, at which point your 47 second/50 second thing holds perfectly true.
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yeah no, they're not removing colossi and corrupters
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On August 25 2011 07:09 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 07:07 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere. I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds. Balance Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs. You also have to research storm, the time cost of which has to be amortized across the life of how many HT's you create. If you only ever create a few HT's, the balance swings heavily in favor of the infestor on time. You need to create X number HT's (and I'm not sure what that X is, but it should be simple math), to make it equal out in total time balance with the 'festor. Of course, the flip of that is that as you go over that X, Storm starts to become more and more time efficient, to the point that the total time cost is amortized to near 0, at which point your 47 second/50 second thing holds perfectly true.
You also have to research Pathogen Glands, and the difference in time is only 30 seconds, and considering the face that you can use Feedback, morph Archons and position them ready to attack in the extra 42 seconds before Storm is ready, and the Storm deals 80 damage when compared to the ~40 (give or take) of a Fungal, that arguements based on time and thus removal of Pathogen Glands are a little unfair.
To be clear though I'm not arguing that anything is imbalanced on that front, I was purely addressing the suggestion of removing Pathogen Glands.
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On August 25 2011 05:23 Mentymion wrote:
The Design of the Colossus is awesome.
I don't see why. For all the fuss that was made about cliff walking in SC2's early previews it's really just a more limited form of flying, and so the Colossus is used like a slow, fragile siege flyer for you to put infantry under and attack move while hoping that your opponent's composition is heavy on the stuff that it counters and light on the stuff that counters it. It has none of the versatility or excitement factor of the Reaver.
The Colossus seems like a unit that was designed to look cool in screenshots more so than create interesting gameplay.
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On August 25 2011 07:18 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 07:09 Brainling wrote:On August 25 2011 07:07 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere. I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds. Balance Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs. You also have to research storm, the time cost of which has to be amortized across the life of how many HT's you create. If you only ever create a few HT's, the balance swings heavily in favor of the infestor on time. You need to create X number HT's (and I'm not sure what that X is, but it should be simple math), to make it equal out in total time balance with the 'festor. Of course, the flip of that is that as you go over that X, Storm starts to become more and more time efficient, to the point that the total time cost is amortized to near 0, at which point your 47 second/50 second thing holds perfectly true. You also have to research Pathogen Glands, and the difference in time is only 30 seconds, and considering the face that you can use Feedback, morph Archons and position them ready to attack in the extra 42 seconds before Storm is ready, and the Storm deals 80 damage when compared to the ~40 (give or take) of a Fungal, that arguements based on time and thus removal of Pathogen Glands are a little unfair. To be clear though I'm not arguing that anything is imbalanced on that front, I was purely addressing the suggestion of removing Pathogen Glands.
I agree, I actually don't think Pathogen Glands should be removed, though I do wonder if Fungal shouldn't need to be researched. Feedback is okay, but an Infestor without Fungal is more scary than an HT without Storm, except in very specific situations (when feedback is useful), especially taking Burrow in to account.
(As a side note, I play Zerg, so I'm not sitting here saying someone else's race should be nerfed  )
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On August 25 2011 07:21 Rococo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 05:23 Mentymion wrote:
The Design of the Colossus is awesome. I don't see why. For all the fuss that was made about cliff walking in SC2's early previews it's really just a more limited form of flying, and so the Colossus is used like a slow, fragile siege flyer for you to put infantry under and attack move while hoping that your opponent's composition is heavy on the stuff that it counters and light on the stuff that counters it. It has none of the versatility or excitement factor of the Reaver. The Colossus seems like a unit that was designed to look cool in screenshots more so than create interesting gameplay.
The way you describe Colossus would make it sound like you are talking about brood lords...
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On August 25 2011 07:32 Brainling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 07:18 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 25 2011 07:09 Brainling wrote:On August 25 2011 07:07 Iyerbeth wrote:On August 25 2011 06:44 Togana wrote:I feel that to fix infestors as they did with High Templar I feel the energy upgrade should be removed to stop them being able to fungal as soon as they morph with it. It's so dumb as it's the same situation as with the High Templar but of course not on as high a scale as High Templar were ridiculous hehe. But Infestors shouldn't be able to pop fungal if High Templar can't. You know what that's called? Balance I want to Storm, I have no KA cuz Blizz removed it. Warp in plus wait for energy = 47 seconds, and I can warp it in anywhere. I want to Fungal Growth, I have Pathogen Glands (cuz honestly who doesn't get it). Morph time to have it spawn only at a Hatchery = 50 seconds. Balance Edit: It's also worth noting, that HT can actually do stuff while waiting for that timer, where Infestor's are just eggs. You also have to research storm, the time cost of which has to be amortized across the life of how many HT's you create. If you only ever create a few HT's, the balance swings heavily in favor of the infestor on time. You need to create X number HT's (and I'm not sure what that X is, but it should be simple math), to make it equal out in total time balance with the 'festor. Of course, the flip of that is that as you go over that X, Storm starts to become more and more time efficient, to the point that the total time cost is amortized to near 0, at which point your 47 second/50 second thing holds perfectly true. You also have to research Pathogen Glands, and the difference in time is only 30 seconds, and considering the face that you can use Feedback, morph Archons and position them ready to attack in the extra 42 seconds before Storm is ready, and the Storm deals 80 damage when compared to the ~40 (give or take) of a Fungal, that arguements based on time and thus removal of Pathogen Glands are a little unfair. To be clear though I'm not arguing that anything is imbalanced on that front, I was purely addressing the suggestion of removing Pathogen Glands. I agree, I actually don't think Pathogen Glands should be removed, though I do wonder if Fungal shouldn't need to be researched. Feedback is okay, but an Infestor without Fungal is more scary than an HT without Storm, except in very specific situations (when feedback is useful), especially taking Burrow in to account. (As a side note, I play Zerg, so I'm not sitting here saying someone else's race should be nerfed )
Actually think that your suggestion is a good one
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The infestor feels incomplete, lets leave fungal growth out of this. Infestors are completely useless once it runs out of energy. I just feel like it should be able to do something that doesnt require energy. Let it be melee attack, 200 range attack, breaks down into 4 ultras, morphs into a drone, combines with another infestor to form a mothership.... Its just so annoying to see a unit that cant do anything. It feels the unit was rushed in design and is now lacking depth.
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On August 25 2011 07:48 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 07:21 Rococo wrote:On August 25 2011 05:23 Mentymion wrote:
The Design of the Colossus is awesome. I don't see why. For all the fuss that was made about cliff walking in SC2's early previews it's really just a more limited form of flying, and so the Colossus is used like a slow, fragile siege flyer for you to put infantry under and attack move while hoping that your opponent's composition is heavy on the stuff that it counters and light on the stuff that counters it. It has none of the versatility or excitement factor of the Reaver. The Colossus seems like a unit that was designed to look cool in screenshots more so than create interesting gameplay. The way you describe Colossus would make it sound like you are talking about brood lords...
you have to agree the idea for both is very very similar 
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On August 02 2011 12:33 HigoSeco wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 12:24 ChoiBoi wrote:
This is probably biased since I'm a Zerg, however:
They should implement scouts, dark archons, defilers, lurkers, vultures, goliaths, overlords with detection, shield batteries, hydra speed, and a super capital ship for zerg.
They should remove hellions, thors, planetary fortresses, phoenixes, double-usage dropship/medic (medivac reduced to two separate units), warpgates (reinforcement to any corner of the map instantly, really?), banelings (idc if they remove banelings as long as lurkers are back), and supply depot lowering.
They should fix: moving while using auto-repair along with max number of workers per unit (e.g 6 max per mech unit), mules being able to repair, forcefield SIZE (currently 3x3 hexagon, reduce to 2x2?), switch roach and hydra tech tiers (and reduce hydra damage, but increase roach damage), reduce marine range and put in range upgrade, banshee damage, this isn't specific, but the "armored but no armor," or "light but has armor," moving to attack enemy unit priority (especially of queens being baited out immediately after an inject), spine crawlers to sturdier defenses that can't unroot, but are definitely more defense oriented, ling surround ai (especially when marines are dropped into between a mineral patch, and when you actually take the time to micro some lings around, they actually go back all the way around to target that ONE marine in the front), and etc.
This seems more like rant, but meh, it should work out effectively. so you basically want to play BW
A game of BW's quality with SC2s popularity? Hell yeah, bring it on.
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Please, please, please remove the corruptor. It is so lame and bad.
And Hydra needs to be changed or removed, an immobile glass cannon is everything Zerg is NOT about, it doesn't fit the race design at all.
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I think the Hydra just needs some love. I think at a core design level it's fine. I think the suggested speed upgrade is probably the best thing I've heard so far. It's a glass cannon, with no real way to get away from anything. If you attack with Hydra's, you are committed, and they aren't THAT good. They are too defensive without a speed upgrade, unless you are just a creep boss and have the whole map creeped up...but by that point in the game, why build hydras?
I would bake the range upgrade in to the unit, and give Hydra Den a speed upgrade.
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KA removal makes sense, warping in storms was a bad idea and will never return. this coming from a protoss player.
infestors>HT
but its not like we need a game where lings=marines=zealots. roaches=marauders=stalkers etc.
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On August 25 2011 08:18 Like a Boss wrote:
The infestor feels incomplete, lets leave fungal growth out of this. Infestors are completely useless once it runs out of energy. I just feel like it should be able to do something that doesnt require energy. Let it be melee attack, 200 range attack, breaks down into 4 ultras, morphs into a drone, combines with another infestor to form a mothership.... Its just so annoying to see a unit that cant do anything. It feels the unit was rushed in design and is now lacking depth.
Make it more expensive, more powerful, give it consume?
Honestly seeing 20 infestors in an army looks really silly. Good players could just use 3 infestors and have a more powerful army.
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I would really like to see the return of the scourge, it was such a good anti air unit, and its something our race badly needs, we have no answer to phoenix or heavy void ray harass right now that doesn't completely cripple us for the mid late game.
I would like to see a t3 spell caster that could support lings, somehow improve their armor or health or something like that something to fill the role of the defiler but without completely breaking the late game, I don't know how that could work, maybe give us a disruption web type ability that could stop units under it from using ranged attacks, this way they could micro out of it to punish us instead of us microing into it, combined with a nerf back to the original fungal they could both be useful abilities at stages of the game, but only really strong together.
Also a hydra speed upgrade and reduced gas cost would be awesome for late game, being able to send around squads of ranged units to do actually damage would be really nice.
Even a hive tech upgrade that would reduce the cost of hydralisks so they could be massed late game would be nice, right now the gas cost is so prohibiting in our late game where gas is so precious, could be something like hydralisks now cost 150 minerals and 0 gas because zerg learned how to evolve blah without gas, or hydralisks are now 75 25 with hive upgrade, something like that would be really neat.
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On August 25 2011 06:34 VassiliZaytsev wrote:Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no  The corruptor is definitely one of the most worthless units Corruptors have 200 health, not 300, so I'm wondering how well you know your own favorite unit... Corruptors to kill medivacs.. please tell me in what world the mutalisks can not accomplish the exact same thing, can CHASE THEM, and then..actually shoot things on the ground instead of sitting there. Corruptors to kill medivacs sounds like a battle you would have already won anyways, and if you lose it, you better gtfo with those corruptors and you sure wont be able to defend with them very well if the terran decides to push. You suggest it shuts down a tech path for protoss, why dont you just say the protoss tech path forces a specific one from zerg? What tech path does it force for terran? Vikings? You're mistaken, thats broodlords (or the threat of them). I will let you fly around with all the corruptors you want while I stim into your base. Also give me a shout when idra makes 10 corruptors instead of 10 mutas when his spire pops k? Maybe im wrong though and mass corruptor is the future style of zerg TL:DR, Corruptors are a one dimensional unit with an afterthough ability and very few roles that cant be filled by mutas, a unit that can actually hit the ground. I hear broodlords are pretty good though.
Supply nerfed from 1 to 2. THAT is a big deal. cutting your potential swarm army in half?
Amror nerfed from 2 to 1.
Tech 3 regen for above ground and bonus to below ground with tunnel claws regen nerfed.
basically, roach had 3 stages of regen, a little like how VRs have 3 stages of charge.
did you miss the part where corruptors have 2 armor, and so marines plink them, compared to muta which get killed instantly.
1 muta takes 29 shots to kill a corruptor. fact.
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On August 25 2011 08:18 Like a Boss wrote:
The infestor feels incomplete, lets leave fungal growth out of this. Infestors are completely useless once it runs out of energy. I just feel like it should be able to do something that doesnt require energy. Let it be melee attack, 200 range attack, breaks down into 4 ultras, morphs into a drone, combines with another infestor to form a mothership.... Its just so annoying to see a unit that cant do anything. It feels the unit was rushed in design and is now lacking depth.
It is supposed to burrow and run away, or at least burrow and squeeze out an infested if the fight lasts long enough to gain the energy. I think there is a good contrast between ghost, HT and infestor when it comes to what they can do when out of energy.
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On August 25 2011 06:34 VassiliZaytsev wrote:Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no
They used to have Organic Carapace which provided +10 burrow regen and +5 regen while above ground (note that Tunnel Claws did not have regen but it was Organic Carapace).
Though an important thing to note is Roach has been buffed (from 3 range to 4 range) after the release of SC2 (first major balance patch).
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On August 25 2011 09:39 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 06:34 VassiliZaytsev wrote:Roaches were nerfed over and over again huh? Changing the starting armor from 2 to 1 was their only nerf besides the supply increase. An already dirt cheap one supply unit that can kill like... 3 marines or a zealot by itself.... plz no The corruptor is definitely one of the most worthless units Corruptors have 200 health, not 300, so I'm wondering how well you know your own favorite unit... Corruptors to kill medivacs.. please tell me in what world the mutalisks can not accomplish the exact same thing, can CHASE THEM, and then..actually shoot things on the ground instead of sitting there. Corruptors to kill medivacs sounds like a battle you would have already won anyways, and if you lose it, you better gtfo with those corruptors and you sure wont be able to defend with them very well if the terran decides to push. You suggest it shuts down a tech path for protoss, why dont you just say the protoss tech path forces a specific one from zerg? What tech path does it force for terran? Vikings? You're mistaken, thats broodlords (or the threat of them). I will let you fly around with all the corruptors you want while I stim into your base. Also give me a shout when idra makes 10 corruptors instead of 10 mutas when his spire pops k? Maybe im wrong though and mass corruptor is the future style of zerg TL:DR, Corruptors are a one dimensional unit with an afterthough ability and very few roles that cant be filled by mutas, a unit that can actually hit the ground. I hear broodlords are pretty good though. Supply nerfed from 1 to 2. THAT is a big deal. cutting your potential swarm army in half? Amror nerfed from 2 to 1. Tech 3 regen for above ground and bonus to below ground with tunnel claws regen nerfed. basically, roach had 3 stages of regen, a little like how VRs have 3 stages of charge. did you miss the part where corruptors have 2 armor, and so marines plink them, compared to muta which get killed instantly. 1 muta takes 29 shots to kill a corruptor. fact.
It would be a fallacy to say that nerfing the supply from 1 to 2 was cutting the potential of your army in half. How often do you run around with 200/200 and nothing but roaches for extended periods of time? You act as if it nerfed the quality of the roach by half, but in reality, it only really affected the late game. All it does is make you hit food cap quicker, which if anything forces an earlier engagement. It does nothing to the quality of the roach at all. Don't you remember all the rage from back in the day?
Plus, 1 food roaches were obscenely imbalanced. Do you really think that (given the current game trends), having that many more roaches in a 200/200 army would be fair?
Also roaches got one of the largest buffs in the games history: increasing it's range to 4. This changed the entire dynamic of the game. So don't say that roaches got nothing but nerfs and should be back to 1 food. Current roach at 1 food would break the game in half.
Err this was linked to me, my bad for the necro
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EPT
