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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
On July 20 2011 08:30 Wren wrote:
NO. Absolutely wrong.
There is no such thing as "abuse" of freedom of speech. That's why it's a freedom.
It's not debatable. It's a fact.
Whether you want to call it "abuse" or not, it's these people's behavior that will cause restrictions on speech.
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On July 20 2011 08:30 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:22 andrea20 wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:
No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!"
What the fuck. So who's accountable when people commit suicide/vent their anger as a result of bullying? Cyber-bullying is the same. This isn't bullying. These aren't comments she's forced to look at, nor posted in any place she would struggle to avoid. The healthy and wise decision is to simply ignore a cesspool. ffs, if someone is that childishly fragile about the opinions found on the internet, there's even parental controls built into browsers. Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:29 Lord_J wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On July 20 2011 07:54 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 07:49 moonmeh wrote:
If the things said online are something they wouldn't otherwise dare say in person, then they deserve what's coming to them, even if they're not on the same level as sexual harassment. The Internet is a fucking cesspool and there needs to be some fear in people to think about how they act.
And who made you the grand maestor of internet beaucracy? Do you realise what you ar saying now is extreme to the point of ridicule? There are innocents caught up in this due to their good intentions of critisizing. Do they deserve it too ser? There needs to be a clear division between brutal cyber attacks and critic fans who see Eve merely unfit for a team like SlayerS. Punish those who should be punished. But one should have a clear vision of those who are malicious in nature and those who are innocent. No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!" What the fuck. The biggest threat to freedom of speech is the people who abuse it. NO. Absolutely wrong. There is no such thing as "abuse" of freedom of speech. That's why it's a freedom.
Yeah thats nice and all but the law is different in south korea so shes completely within her rights doing this. even if it seems like an overreaction.
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On July 20 2011 08:30 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:22 andrea20 wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:
No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!"
What the fuck. So who's accountable when people commit suicide/vent their anger as a result of bullying? Cyber-bullying is the same. This isn't bullying. These aren't comments she's forced to look at, nor posted in any place she would struggle to avoid. The healthy and wise decision is to simply ignore a cesspool. ffs, if someone is that childishly fragile about the opinions found on the internet, there's even parental controls built into browsers. Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:29 Lord_J wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On July 20 2011 07:54 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 07:49 moonmeh wrote:
If the things said online are something they wouldn't otherwise dare say in person, then they deserve what's coming to them, even if they're not on the same level as sexual harassment. The Internet is a fucking cesspool and there needs to be some fear in people to think about how they act.
And who made you the grand maestor of internet beaucracy? Do you realise what you ar saying now is extreme to the point of ridicule? There are innocents caught up in this due to their good intentions of critisizing. Do they deserve it too ser? There needs to be a clear division between brutal cyber attacks and critic fans who see Eve merely unfit for a team like SlayerS. Punish those who should be punished. But one should have a clear vision of those who are malicious in nature and those who are innocent. No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!" What the fuck. The biggest threat to freedom of speech is the people who abuse it. NO. Absolutely wrong. There is no such thing as "abuse" of freedom of speech. That's why it's a freedom.
Taking people to court under the accordance of local law is also a freedom, so looks like you don't have an argument there. Slayers Jessica is exercising her freedoms (which seems to be the most important thing to you,) so what is your issue here?
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On July 20 2011 08:33 Lord_J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:30 Wren wrote:
NO. Absolutely wrong.
There is no such thing as "abuse" of freedom of speech. That's why it's a freedom. It's not debatable. It's a fact. Whether you want to call it "abuse" or not, it's these people's behavior that will cause restrictions on speech.
What are rights when it's abused for the pure purpose of hurting another individual?
@Wren
You Americans do say in constitution, Slander, no protection First Amendment. Right? Abuse Freedom, Slander. So no protection
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On July 20 2011 08:30 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:22 andrea20 wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:
No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!"
What the fuck. So who's accountable when people commit suicide/vent their anger as a result of bullying? Cyber-bullying is the same. This isn't bullying. These aren't comments she's forced to look at, nor posted in any place she would struggle to avoid. The healthy and wise decision is to simply ignore a cesspool.
LOL since when the fuck has cyber bulling ever been limited to directly forcing someone to look at anything, or posting in a place you'd have to struggle to avoid. But yes, they were in a place she'd have to struggle to avoid, it's her friggin' career.
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On July 20 2011 08:33 Bonkarooni wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:29 Lord_J wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On July 20 2011 07:54 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 07:49 moonmeh wrote:
If the things said online are something they wouldn't otherwise dare say in person, then they deserve what's coming to them, even if they're not on the same level as sexual harassment. The Internet is a fucking cesspool and there needs to be some fear in people to think about how they act.
And who made you the grand maestor of internet beaucracy? Do you realise what you ar saying now is extreme to the point of ridicule? There are innocents caught up in this due to their good intentions of critisizing. Do they deserve it too ser? There needs to be a clear division between brutal cyber attacks and critic fans who see Eve merely unfit for a team like SlayerS. Punish those who should be punished. But one should have a clear vision of those who are malicious in nature and those who are innocent. No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!" What the fuck. The biggest threat to freedom of speech is the people who abuse it. You mean by saying what they want to say? How is that abuse? If you can't say what you want to say...you aren't actually free..
There's nothing inherently virtuous about freedom. If you want total freedom, you should move to Somalia where there is anarchy and no state government. If I wanted freedom to kill people, you think that would be okay? You would say no, then I would ask you where you draw the line for when my freedom to do what I want crosses the line into making life miserable for others.
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On July 20 2011 08:29 Ocedic wrote:
Yes, people who commit suicide over cyber bullying and bullying in general do have self esteem issues. But that's blaming the victim. You're acting as if bullying serves a purpose to humanity and that people committing suicide are just unfortunate incidental damage to something that otherwise betters society as a whole.
Maybe you'll feel differently if you ever have a kid who gets bullied at school. If he or she commits suicide, would you feel the same way?
bullying is something that, no matter the number of awareness groups and good faith, is never going to simply fade away. similarly, people willing to snipe away at the reputations of public figures from behind the anonymous veil of a computer with internet won't, either. in the case of the latter, those public figures have to have thick skins to enter professions and fields that require exposure. I happen to think this sort of reaction showcases the sort of self-esteem that simply isn't adequate to fill the position that jessica currently occupies, and that she should consider talking to a counselor before something like this - a perfectly normal process, especially with an issue as loaded as females in professional gaming - has the chance to get to her in such a way again.
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On July 20 2011 08:37 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:29 Ocedic wrote:
Yes, people who commit suicide over cyber bullying and bullying in general do have self esteem issues. But that's blaming the victim. You're acting as if bullying serves a purpose to humanity and that people committing suicide are just unfortunate incidental damage to something that otherwise betters society as a whole.
Maybe you'll feel differently if you ever have a kid who gets bullied at school. If he or she commits suicide, would you feel the same way? bullying is something that, no matter the number of awareness groups and good faith, is never going to simply fade away. similarly, people willing to snipe away at the reputations of public figures from behind the anonymous veil of a computer with internet won't, either. in the case of the latter, those public figures have to have thick skins to enter professions and fields that require exposure. I happen to think this sort of reaction showcases the sort of self-esteem that simply isn't adequate to fill the position that jessica currently occupies, and that she should consider talking to a counselor before something like this - a perfectly normal process, especially with an issue as loaded as females in professional gaming - has the chance to get to her in such a way again.
Shakespeare say best, Reputation is immortal part of person. No reputation, person bestial left. Good Public image very important. And for Eve she get bad image first time on scene, Not good for esport career
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I believe in freedom of speech way too much to ever support people's thoughts online being handed to the police for discipline action to be taken.
SlayerS_Eve must realize that being a pro gamer WILL get her put in the public spotlight, with that there will always be haters and supporters. You need to either ignore the haters or have a thick skin, reporting people who say something bad about you to the police is a pathetic measure to take.
SlayerS_Jessica is going about this all in the wrong way, massive overreaction.
My respect for SlayerS_Jessica just went from infinitely high to rock bottom.
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On July 20 2011 08:36 Ocedic wrote:
There's nothing inherently virtuous about freedom. If you want total freedom, you should move to Somalia where there is anarchy and no state government. If I wanted freedom to kill people, you think that would be okay? You would say no, then I would ask you where you draw the line for when my freedom to do what I want crosses the line into making life miserable for others.
this is not how you argue maturely. equating the freedom to express mildly negative views of someone's public life with the freedom to end someone's life is ridiculous, end of story.
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On July 20 2011 08:34 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:30 Wren wrote:On July 20 2011 08:22 andrea20 wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:
No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!"
What the fuck. So who's accountable when people commit suicide/vent their anger as a result of bullying? Cyber-bullying is the same. This isn't bullying. These aren't comments she's forced to look at, nor posted in any place she would struggle to avoid. The healthy and wise decision is to simply ignore a cesspool. ffs, if someone is that childishly fragile about the opinions found on the internet, there's even parental controls built into browsers. On July 20 2011 08:29 Lord_J wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On July 20 2011 07:54 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 07:49 moonmeh wrote:
If the things said online are something they wouldn't otherwise dare say in person, then they deserve what's coming to them, even if they're not on the same level as sexual harassment. The Internet is a fucking cesspool and there needs to be some fear in people to think about how they act.
And who made you the grand maestor of internet beaucracy? Do you realise what you ar saying now is extreme to the point of ridicule? There are innocents caught up in this due to their good intentions of critisizing. Do they deserve it too ser? There needs to be a clear division between brutal cyber attacks and critic fans who see Eve merely unfit for a team like SlayerS. Punish those who should be punished. But one should have a clear vision of those who are malicious in nature and those who are innocent. No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!" What the fuck. The biggest threat to freedom of speech is the people who abuse it. NO. Absolutely wrong. There is no such thing as "abuse" of freedom of speech. That's why it's a freedom. Taking people to court under the accordance of local law is also a freedom, so looks like you don't have an argument there. Slayers Jessica is exercising her freedoms (which seems to be the most important thing to you,) so what is your issue here?
I posted in great depth about exactly how she's entitled to bring suit against whoever she wants in this matter. That's what what I'm talking about in the quote you left.
I was attacking the platitude I quoted, which is staggeringly offbase.
@FabledIntegral: http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=13495
The essentially random posting of "offensive" images does not qualify as Cyberstalking, Cyberharassment, or Cyberbullying. Hence: "This isn't bullying." Put a line break after that sentence when you read my post if you'd like.
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On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 07:54 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 07:49 moonmeh wrote:
If the things said online are something they wouldn't otherwise dare say in person, then they deserve what's coming to them, even if they're not on the same level as sexual harassment. The Internet is a fucking cesspool and there needs to be some fear in people to think about how they act.
And who made you the grand maestor of internet beaucracy? Do you realise what you ar saying now is extreme to the point of ridicule? There are innocents caught up in this due to their good intentions of critisizing. Do they deserve it too ser? There needs to be a clear division between brutal cyber attacks and critic fans who see Eve merely unfit for a team like SlayerS. Punish those who should be punished. But one should have a clear vision of those who are malicious in nature and those who are innocent. No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!" What the fuck.
What u said here is so important.
But what is also worth mentioning, is that there is a price for being in the spotlight. Look at IdrA how much flak he gets. Imagine how many people who has to be put in jail for flaming him?
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On July 20 2011 08:42 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:36 Ocedic wrote:
There's nothing inherently virtuous about freedom. If you want total freedom, you should move to Somalia where there is anarchy and no state government. If I wanted freedom to kill people, you think that would be okay? You would say no, then I would ask you where you draw the line for when my freedom to do what I want crosses the line into making life miserable for others. this is not how you argue maturely. equating the freedom to express mildly negative views of someone's public life with the freedom to end someone's life is ridiculous, end of story.
But total freedom is like chaos. That's why laws. Laws give order. With no order humans don't get along good.
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Most of the "males" of the comunity don't really understand how it feels for a girl to enter in computer game competition. If a "male" person would have been recruited that noone knew anything about him ...almost nobody would have even checked his profile. LIke 70% of the people were just oh oh she is gold level ... but they didn't even think :wait she won a tournament( even if it was a girl tournament we most of us know girls at master lvl or higher) . BUT JUST BECAUSE SHE IS A GIRL - people thought she was REALLY bad. I can go on but would it matter? ..
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On July 20 2011 08:42 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:36 Ocedic wrote:
There's nothing inherently virtuous about freedom. If you want total freedom, you should move to Somalia where there is anarchy and no state government. If I wanted freedom to kill people, you think that would be okay? You would say no, then I would ask you where you draw the line for when my freedom to do what I want crosses the line into making life miserable for others. this is not how you argue maturely. equating the freedom to express mildly negative views of someone's public life with the freedom to end someone's life is ridiculous, end of story.
Except you ignored the question: so where do you draw the line? Somewhere arbitrary and based on your own personal sense of morality? Exactly, your view of where freedom of speech (and all freedom) begins and ends is an OPINION.
There's clear legal limitations where it begins and ends in America, and I presume in Korea as well. So the point is that it doesn't matter what the fuck you think the limits SHOULD be, the law decides that.
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On July 20 2011 08:26 lizzard_warish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:23 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On July 20 2011 07:54 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 07:49 moonmeh wrote:
If the things said online are something they wouldn't otherwise dare say in person, then they deserve what's coming to them, even if they're not on the same level as sexual harassment. The Internet is a fucking cesspool and there needs to be some fear in people to think about how they act.
And who made you the grand maestor of internet beaucracy? Do you realise what you ar saying now is extreme to the point of ridicule? There are innocents caught up in this due to their good intentions of critisizing. Do they deserve it too ser? There needs to be a clear division between brutal cyber attacks and critic fans who see Eve merely unfit for a team like SlayerS. Punish those who should be punished. But one should have a clear vision of those who are malicious in nature and those who are innocent. No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!" What the fuck. Well you know about the photo-shopped porno..... All things with in moderations my good sir. No, not in freedom of speech. If you restrict it when someone says or does a distasteful act you have justification for the crap people pull frequently now a days. Was she "emotionally hurt?" then its illegal! The law should not care if someone photoshopped a porno [except perhaps copyright infringment and the like].
This freedom of speech bullshit excuse needs to stop.
Go say "go screw yourself" to a local cop, let's see if he is not allowed to throw you into jail.
"but i have freedom speech"
And if you come with the excuse "but its police" then you just contradicted your own statement since suddenly you don't have some much freedom anymore.
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On July 20 2011 08:45 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:42 TheExile19 wrote:On July 20 2011 08:36 Ocedic wrote:
There's nothing inherently virtuous about freedom. If you want total freedom, you should move to Somalia where there is anarchy and no state government. If I wanted freedom to kill people, you think that would be okay? You would say no, then I would ask you where you draw the line for when my freedom to do what I want crosses the line into making life miserable for others. this is not how you argue maturely. equating the freedom to express mildly negative views of someone's public life with the freedom to end someone's life is ridiculous, end of story. Except you ignored the question: so where do you draw the line? Somewhere arbitrary and based on your own personal sense of morality? Exactly, your view of where freedom of speech (and all freedom) begins and ends is an OPINION. There's clear legal limitations where it begins and ends in America, and I presume in Korea as well. So the point is that it doesn't matter what the fuck you think the limits SHOULD be, the law decides that.
People make laws, give order to society so no chaos. Freedom good but too much is no good. All things in moderation.
<Total Freedom =Chaos=============Slavery=No Freedom=>
All in moderation
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On July 20 2011 08:41 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:37 TheExile19 wrote:On July 20 2011 08:29 Ocedic wrote:
Yes, people who commit suicide over cyber bullying and bullying in general do have self esteem issues. But that's blaming the victim. You're acting as if bullying serves a purpose to humanity and that people committing suicide are just unfortunate incidental damage to something that otherwise betters society as a whole.
Maybe you'll feel differently if you ever have a kid who gets bullied at school. If he or she commits suicide, would you feel the same way? bullying is something that, no matter the number of awareness groups and good faith, is never going to simply fade away. similarly, people willing to snipe away at the reputations of public figures from behind the anonymous veil of a computer with internet won't, either. in the case of the latter, those public figures have to have thick skins to enter professions and fields that require exposure. I happen to think this sort of reaction showcases the sort of self-esteem that simply isn't adequate to fill the position that jessica currently occupies, and that she should consider talking to a counselor before something like this - a perfectly normal process, especially with an issue as loaded as females in professional gaming - has the chance to get to her in such a way again. Shakespeare say best, Reputation is immortal part of person. No reputation, person bestial left. Good Public image very important. And for Eve she get bad image first time on scene, Not good for esport career
Sometimes you lose more of your reputation by being petty and vengeful rather than just let the minor nuisances of life play themselves out. That seems to be the case here.
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On July 20 2011 08:48 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 08:26 lizzard_warish wrote:On July 20 2011 08:23 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 08:20 lizzard_warish wrote:On July 20 2011 07:54 Blasterion wrote:On July 20 2011 07:49 moonmeh wrote:
If the things said online are something they wouldn't otherwise dare say in person, then they deserve what's coming to them, even if they're not on the same level as sexual harassment. The Internet is a fucking cesspool and there needs to be some fear in people to think about how they act.
And who made you the grand maestor of internet beaucracy? Do you realise what you ar saying now is extreme to the point of ridicule? There are innocents caught up in this due to their good intentions of critisizing. Do they deserve it too ser? There needs to be a clear division between brutal cyber attacks and critic fans who see Eve merely unfit for a team like SlayerS. Punish those who should be punished. But one should have a clear vision of those who are malicious in nature and those who are innocent. No one deserves to be punished for making fun of her no matter how cruel they are. Excluding death threats and hacking, no one deserves to be punished. I cant believe how common and flippant people are now days with restrictions on freedom of speech. "BUT HER FEELINGS WERE REALLY HURT!" What the fuck. Well you know about the photo-shopped porno..... All things with in moderations my good sir. No, not in freedom of speech. If you restrict it when someone says or does a distasteful act you have justification for the crap people pull frequently now a days. Was she "emotionally hurt?" then its illegal! The law should not care if someone photoshopped a porno [except perhaps copyright infringment and the like]. This freedom of speech bullshit excuse needs to stop. Go say "go screw yourself" to a local cop, let's see if he is not allowed to throw you into jail. "but i have freedom speech" And if you come with the excuse "but its police" then you just contradicted your own statement since suddenly you don't have some much freedom anymore.
The principle of freedom of speech applies except when there is a legal exception. The argument that the charges are ridiculous is saying that these posts aren't breaking the law, and therefore fall under freedom of speech allowances, not the other way around.
I get that Korean law allows for damage to reputation be prosecuted, but there doesn't seem to be any disagreement about that point.
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Lalalaland34502 Posts
I'm slightly disappointed in Jessica's decision and I think she's overreacting a little, but it's not caused me to lose any respect for her.
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EPT
