On July 14 2011 06:43 naitS wrote: Oh look, another BW-fan desperately trying to tell us that BW is not a totally irrelevant game these days... I can taste the bitterness of your tears all the way over here.
Lol this dude made his account for this one incendiary post. Unfortunately, its not even a good one...
well, the OP did post on multiple accounts to agree with himself
Yeah he did. What a jackass. Thanks for the contribution to the thread.
Players haven't even started stuff like sending 5-10 spread out zerglings first into a siege line, de-clumping their units when fighting collosi and stuff like that - SC2 pros are still lazy to some extent, the first SC2 bonjwa will work on these things too. And I find it ridiculous how the skill ceiling is being judged already. I don't like the OP at all, it unnecessarily creates a mood which shouldn't be created at this point in time.
To those who agree with the OP: HotS and LotV are your hopes! Blizz seems to be working close with progamers for the multiplayer part. But even if there weren't any expansions, time would show you the bonjwas that do stuff you're not seeing right now.
No, both articles were wrong and extremely biased to the point of disgust. They also do not take into consideration time, which is a convenient way to fail.
On July 14 2011 08:52 Leviance wrote: Players haven't even started stuff like sending 5-10 spread out zerglings first into a siege line, de-clumping their units when fighting collosi and stuff like that - SC2 pros are still lazy to some extent, the first SC2 bonjwa will work on these things too. And I find it ridiculous how the skill ceiling is being judged already. I don't like the OP at all, it unnecessarily creates a mood which shouldn't be created at this point in time.
I agree with this, that's the kind of stuff we haven't seen yet.
IF you dont like it then just dont play it, this is not BW, it doesnt need to be, stop wanting it to be, we dont need flash, jaedong or bisu, we have nestea, mc, etc, and we will have more to come Im pretty sure about it.
We cant and we dont have proves that the other players will dominate the game, maybe they will maybe they wont but we dont know for sure, sure they can be good and im pretty sure they will be at least be descent and they can pick the game pretty easy with the mechanics but still the game is more deeper than more ppl think.
On July 14 2011 08:29 Serpico wrote: The volatility makes it hard to really find a superstar and stick with them. There isn't some typical cast of great players but a lot of interchanging parts. It's like if there was no MJ in basketball, I dont think there will ever be a flash or jaedong etc in SC 2. No players that play at that level and stay that consistent. That is good or bad based on your perspective.
I looked through liquidpedia and found 3 OSL's before Boxer's first win.
Not only did all 3 have different champions, but in each case the former champion didn't even make it out of group stages.
New games are volatile, that's just how it is.
For example, when GSL first started a lot of cheesy play made it through and now we're starting to see more stable play with plans to transition past the midgame. It's natural that players are going to be phased out quickly as the player-base as a whole learns more about the game.
There's just so much doom and gloom about something that's basically a new game.
If we had actually seen a bunch of A-teamers switch over, then SC2 might have had a jump start. But that didn't really happen, and instead SC2 was a sequel in name-only (as far as the pro-scene is concerned). But realistically SC2 is a new creation that's still developing and it's unreasonable to expect it to be as stable as something that's been around for 10+ years.
Not to mention it's a little silly to talk about SC2's volatility when in other sports (and BW) we can talk about player slumps lasting for months at a time and the game hasn't even been out for a year.
On July 14 2011 09:28 sgt_cr wrote: Ohhh no not another thread with the same bs
IF you dont like it then just dont play it, this is not BW, it doesnt need to be, stop wanting it to be, we dont need flash, jaedong or bisu, we have nestea, mc, etc, and we will have more to come Im pretty sure about it.
We cant and we dont have proves that the other players will dominate the game, maybe they will maybe they wont but we dont know for sure, sure they can be good and im pretty sure they will be at least be descent and they can pick the game pretty easy with the mechanics but still the game is more deeper than more ppl think.
terrible terrible post.
None of what you said has anything to do with my post. Impressive.
I think that pro SC2 players are just trying to play the game too much like BW, they keep trying to win in a mechanically-focused manner, instead of focusing on unique strategies, tricky/fancy micro, and unique/sudden unit combos. I'm not saying I don't agree that SC2 is easier to play, but I think that a similarly large gap in skill as to BW good be achieved if players would just break out of the mold of mechanics>all (and I know after up to 12 years for some its hard to do).
For example (Warning GSL July Byun vs NaDa Ro16 Spoiler Warning) + Show Spoiler +
In the game of NaDa vs Byun, NaDa the likely undisputed stronger player in terms recognition, expected performance, and micro/macro ability. Byun was able to take Game 2 in particular largely due to the fact that the game allows both Byun and NaDa to have similar macro. or identical macro, and if NaDa mis-controls his skill-gap above Byun is gone. This is exactly what happened. Now NaDa did show us some great Banshee/Viking use to attempt to clear Byun's tank lines, but he continued to try to out-play him with mechanics. Had NaDa got some Seeker Missile Ravens, now that would have made things very interesting, could have surprised Byun and pulled out a win.
As others have stated there are still mechanical differences even among top level players. Wolf always makes fun of Terrans who supply drop, many critical moments in GSL games have had the scream 'And he's supply blocked!' (and not just because ovies/depots/pylons were just sniped).
I won't argue against SC2 macro being easier, since auto-mine basically makes it 10x easier no matter how many race specific macro-mechanics Blizzard puts in. But it's still not auto-pilot.
I think you're vastly overstating Nada's mechanical edge these days.
In game 1 - Byun had the worker lead throughout the game.
I think Nada started out game 2 supply blocked even, and for most of it played from a supply disadvantage.
Nada is in university so is kind of a part time player now. It's summer so I'm expecting for him to come out strong next GSL, but if it were any other player, or if we watched that set with just colors and no names. Most people would have said Red/Byun was the mechanically superior player.
But you know, Nada has been coming up with some really clever openings lately, so he could be doing what you want and trying to be a well-rounded player instead of just a macro player. So that's good news; once he can get some practice time in to restore his mechanics I'm sure he'll dominate.
On July 14 2011 10:10 Ribbon wrote: I'm pretty sure no one in this thread is ever going to change their minds, so there's really not much point in arguing.
everyone will tell themselves what they want to hear
On July 14 2011 09:54 SichuanPanda wrote: I think that pro SC2 players are just trying to play the game too much like BW, they keep trying to win in a mechanically-focused manner, instead of focusing on unique strategies, tricky/fancy micro, and unique/sudden unit combos. I'm not saying I don't agree that SC2 is easier to play, but I think that a similarly large gap in skill as to BW good be achieved if players would just break out of the mold of mechanics>all (and I know after up to 12 years for some its hard to do).
For example (Warning GSL July Byun vs NaDa Ro16 Spoiler Warning) + Show Spoiler +
In the game of NaDa vs Byun, NaDa the likely undisputed stronger player in terms recognition, expected performance, and micro/macro ability. Byun was able to take Game 2 in particular largely due to the fact that the game allows both Byun and NaDa to have similar macro. or identical macro, and if NaDa mis-controls his skill-gap above Byun is gone. This is exactly what happened. Now NaDa did show us some great Banshee/Viking use to attempt to clear Byun's tank lines, but he continued to try to out-play him with mechanics. Had NaDa got some Seeker Missile Ravens, now that would have made things very interesting, could have surprised Byun and pulled out a win.
But NaDa is a mechanical player, so is July, so is MVP.
Flash is not a mechanical player at all, he wins on mind games and strategy.
On July 14 2011 02:08 xarthaz wrote: Look, micro matters. Its that simple. Compare SC1 2rax allin to SC2 2rax allin:
Its a night and day, and this is why koreans continue to be nuts about the first game in the series, they know what is good and they appreciate it.
I'm not impressed at all. The reason you don't see this as often in SC2 is that it takes way more skill to do the same thing, and players aren't good enough yet. Why is it harder?
1) 3D isometric-like view. Not only are does each unit appear smaller (unless you zoom in), the size of each unit varies depending on distance to the bottom of the screen.
2) Game is way faster. Honestly, that video looked like SC2 played at normal speed. You have to think and execute twice as fast because everything has twice the real-world DPS as it does in SC1. SCVs also have only 45 hp, not 60 hp.
So yes, the skill ceiling in SC2 is higher just because how insanely difficult it is to achieve perfect micro.
Hahahahaha, oh god.
How did the argument go from SC2 being just as hard to play as BW, to SC2 being HARDER to play.
I never said SC2 is harder to play. I think BW is harder to play. But as others have pointed out (thank you) that a easier game does not mean it has a lower skill ceiling.
It's harder to play a C major scale on a recorder than it is on a piano. But most of us would agree that a piano has a higher skill ceiling than a recorder (and sounds better!).
On July 13 2011 14:31 UndoneJin wrote: So what? Everyone who likes the SC2 pro scene should just stop watching because the skill level is slightly lower than BW? This is a pointless topic SC2 is not the same game as BW, and anyone who says otherwise is crazy. Yet all the same, SC2 is the future whether BW lives or dies in Korea.
Another swing and a miss....
Pitchers are having a field day.
He never said don't watch SC2, actually quite the opposite. He is simply trying to explain what people mean when they say the games are different. They have different requirements to excel at. Is that really so hard to understand?
Hes trying to explain the differences between two games which are at completely different stages of their evolution, and hes doing it with factless conjecture. That's what is hard for me to understand. Second, no he didn't say stop watching SC2, but I fail to see a point in bringing up how low the "skill ceiling" is when we just saw one of the most advanced series ever played during the finals of NASL.
Everything doesn't need facts and stats to back up. Sometimes logic will suffice. If I am on the moon and I throw a ball in the air, I think it was come back down. Because that's how it works on Earth. Have I been to the moon? Negative. Do I have any "facts" to back it up? I guess I know gravity exists, that's a fact. But that's not any more proof than I have in my OP.
Does the computer do more stuff for you in SC2 than BW? Yes, fact. Do units move better and attack more efficiently in SC2 than BW? Yes, fact again! Are more highly regarded Koreans still playing BW? Yes, fact! Tres fantastique! + Show Spoiler +
so punny
I used lots of these "facts" that you so dearly need. You just chose to dismiss them. But don't claim they didn't exist.
And the stage of the game is irrelevent to the idea. What difference does it make if SC2 is in it's infancy or if it's 60 years old? It is what it is and it's relationship to BW doesn't change over time. Whether my "factless conjecture" is right or not is a different story. Clearly you aren't a fan.
And my argument was never that SC2 is bad or dumb or won't be fun to watch. Just that the experience will be markedly different than the BW pro scene. And if you noticed that NASL series, the "better" and more established player lost. I just think that trend will continue. That's pretty much it.
I completely disagree with the spoiler. The superior player displayed more BW-esque skill and won. Come to think about it, the superior player was also a superior BW player.
On July 14 2011 04:37 Flying_Cake wrote: I do wish that SC2 had a pro mode were it would take all macro features out of the match so skilled players can have better chance at winning.
Play SC2BW, dude.
A true bonjwa would unplug the keyboard and just go pure mouse.
Can't we save these threads for when the game at least gets its first expansion, so you can even have a BASIS for comparing a game with an expansion to a game without one? Fuck.
Can someone please explain to me why people keep bringing up the "SC2 is a completely different game" card everytime? I never understood how the games are drastically different enough that skill level doesn't trasnfer like people argue.
On July 14 2011 15:39 Vei wrote: Can't we save these threads for when the game at least gets its first expansion, so you can even have a BASIS for comparing a game with an expansion to a game without one? Fuck.
We should definitely wait until the a few years for the game to evolve a little bit. Look how many balance changes were made in the past year. Pretty much all the match ups have in one way or another changed
On July 14 2011 15:39 Vei wrote: Can't we save these threads for when the game at least gets its first expansion, so you can even have a BASIS for comparing a game with an expansion to a game without one? Fuck.
We should definitely wait until the a few years for the game to evolve a little bit. Look how many balance changes were made in the past year. Pretty much all the match ups have in one way or another changed
Seriously. Even when the game isn't patched the metagame shifts a lot, like ugh, all these people criticize the skillcap of SC2 yet aren't anywhere near it. If major tourney winners want to shit on SC2's skill levels that's one thing, but some jaded BW player in the top1000 of his NA region doesn't really need to believe so strongly in his convictions that SC2 is inherently easier than BW... and if things go well, the expansion pack will only increase the already (imo) high skillcap of SC2.
On July 14 2011 15:39 Vei wrote: Can't we save these threads for when the game at least gets its first expansion, so you can even have a BASIS for comparing a game with an expansion to a game without one? Fuck.
We should definitely wait until the a few years for the game to evolve a little bit. Look how many balance changes were made in the past year. Pretty much all the match ups have in one way or another changed
Seriously. Even when the game isn't patched the metagame shifts a lot, like ugh, all these people criticize the skillcap of SC2 yet aren't anywhere near it. If major tourney winners want to shit on SC2's skill levels that's one thing, but some jaded BW player in the top1000 of his NA region doesn't really need to believe so strongly in his convictions that SC2 is inherently easier than BW... and if things go well, the expansion pack will only increase the already (imo) high skillcap of SC2.
I dont need to be the best pianist in the world to know that playing a C on a piano is easier than on a recorder, so why would i need to be the best sc player in the world to notice a difference in skill cap between the games.
EPT
