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It's not the case. Skillcap in SC2 is still out of reach. Every aspect can be still improved even in the gameplay of best SC2 player in the world.
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On July 14 2011 07:43 Dariusz wrote:
It's not the case. Skillcap in SC2 is still out of reach. Every aspect can be still improved even in the gameplay of best SC2 player in the world.
He who says otherwise is trolling or plain stupid. Amen.
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On July 14 2011 07:43 aFF.TEEN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:41 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:35 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:32 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:29 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:25 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 06:29 Thorakh wrote:On July 13 2011 14:39 yosisoy wrote:
Why do people consider it good that in BW you had to struggle to do mundane tasks and complain that in SC2 you have MBS and auto-mine? It's a STRATEGY game, not a clicking competition. It's like complaining that we as humans have auto-breathe and coordination implemented - plain silly.
As much as I admire good mechanics and people's abilities to be able to control multiple bases, structures and attack fronts, I personally don't consider that aspect as what I want to be the main criteria that wins games. BW is often compared to chess, yet the game of kings has NOTHING to do with "mechanics". Someone without hands could play chess perfectly well.
Final point: BroodWar's design had major flaws that we've gotten used to and now some of us actually except new games to have the same flaws, and focus on the technical sound of the game instead of the strategy/tactics. This, so much this. Why do people think it even matters that some of these mundane tasks are automated, it gives so much more room for fantastic creative strategic play and better micro. Except you can't really micro in SC2 past early mid game, and strategies always have weaknesses/strengths meaning most games would be coin flips. This is nonsense. Then it should be easy to give a counterpoint, instead of just saying it's "nonsense" Go a-move with your marine-marauder medivac ghost viking against a P who microes and positions himself well. Be sure to let me know how it went. What does the P have? As long as you use EMP (something gold leaguers can do) then the question is much more about unit comp really. Your ignorace is amazing, no offense. I am speechless. I dont know how to reply to this in a serious way.
Ok... if the protoss has stalker/collosus he'll lose if he has charge zealot/archon/HT he'll probably win, even without micro.
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On July 14 2011 07:46 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:43 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:41 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:35 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:32 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:29 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:25 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 06:29 Thorakh wrote:On July 13 2011 14:39 yosisoy wrote:
Why do people consider it good that in BW you had to struggle to do mundane tasks and complain that in SC2 you have MBS and auto-mine? It's a STRATEGY game, not a clicking competition. It's like complaining that we as humans have auto-breathe and coordination implemented - plain silly.
As much as I admire good mechanics and people's abilities to be able to control multiple bases, structures and attack fronts, I personally don't consider that aspect as what I want to be the main criteria that wins games. BW is often compared to chess, yet the game of kings has NOTHING to do with "mechanics". Someone without hands could play chess perfectly well.
Final point: BroodWar's design had major flaws that we've gotten used to and now some of us actually except new games to have the same flaws, and focus on the technical sound of the game instead of the strategy/tactics. This, so much this. Why do people think it even matters that some of these mundane tasks are automated, it gives so much more room for fantastic creative strategic play and better micro. Except you can't really micro in SC2 past early mid game, and strategies always have weaknesses/strengths meaning most games would be coin flips. This is nonsense. Then it should be easy to give a counterpoint, instead of just saying it's "nonsense" Go a-move with your marine-marauder medivac ghost viking against a P who microes and positions himself well. Be sure to let me know how it went. What does the P have? As long as you use EMP (something gold leaguers can do) then the question is much more about unit comp really. Your ignorace is amazing, no offense. I am speechless. I dont know how to reply to this in a serious way. Ok... if the protoss has stalker/collosus he'll lose if he has charge zealot/archon/HT he'll probably win, even without micro.
Do you in all seriousness believe unit control and positioning doesnt matter?
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On July 14 2011 07:43 Dariusz wrote:
It's not the case. Skillcap in SC2 is still out of reach. Every aspect can be still improved even in the gameplay of best SC2 player in the world.
This is pretty much it. The easier mechanics gives SC2 a smaller learning curve, but the skill ceiling is still unreachable.
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On July 14 2011 07:44 aFF.TEEN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:43 Dariusz wrote:
It's not the case. Skillcap in SC2 is still out of reach. Every aspect can be still improved even in the gameplay of best SC2 player in the world. He who says otherwise is trolling or plain stupid. Amen.
Anyone with an opinion different from yours is stupid or trolling? Now who's ignorant...
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On July 14 2011 07:47 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:44 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:43 Dariusz wrote:
It's not the case. Skillcap in SC2 is still out of reach. Every aspect can be still improved even in the gameplay of best SC2 player in the world. He who says otherwise is trolling or plain stupid. Amen. Anyone with an opinion different from yours is stupid or trolling? Now who's ignorant...
There are opinions and then there are facts. But I dont expect you to be able to tell the difference, no offense.
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On July 14 2011 07:47 aFF.TEEN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:46 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:43 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:41 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:35 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:32 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:29 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:25 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 06:29 Thorakh wrote:On July 13 2011 14:39 yosisoy wrote:
Why do people consider it good that in BW you had to struggle to do mundane tasks and complain that in SC2 you have MBS and auto-mine? It's a STRATEGY game, not a clicking competition. It's like complaining that we as humans have auto-breathe and coordination implemented - plain silly.
As much as I admire good mechanics and people's abilities to be able to control multiple bases, structures and attack fronts, I personally don't consider that aspect as what I want to be the main criteria that wins games. BW is often compared to chess, yet the game of kings has NOTHING to do with "mechanics". Someone without hands could play chess perfectly well.
Final point: BroodWar's design had major flaws that we've gotten used to and now some of us actually except new games to have the same flaws, and focus on the technical sound of the game instead of the strategy/tactics. This, so much this. Why do people think it even matters that some of these mundane tasks are automated, it gives so much more room for fantastic creative strategic play and better micro. Except you can't really micro in SC2 past early mid game, and strategies always have weaknesses/strengths meaning most games would be coin flips. This is nonsense. Then it should be easy to give a counterpoint, instead of just saying it's "nonsense" Go a-move with your marine-marauder medivac ghost viking against a P who microes and positions himself well. Be sure to let me know how it went. What does the P have? As long as you use EMP (something gold leaguers can do) then the question is much more about unit comp really. Your ignorace is amazing, no offense. I am speechless. I dont know how to reply to this in a serious way. Ok... if the protoss has stalker/collosus he'll lose if he has charge zealot/archon/HT he'll probably win, even without micro. Do you in all seriousness believe unit control and positioning doesnt matter?
They do, positioning more so than control, but unit comps matter 10x more, especially in SC2.
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On July 14 2011 07:49 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:47 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:46 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:43 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:41 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:35 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:32 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:29 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:25 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 06:29 Thorakh wrote:
[quote]This, so much this. Why do people think it even matters that some of these mundane tasks are automated, it gives so much more room for fantastic creative strategic play and better micro.
Except you can't really micro in SC2 past early mid game, and strategies always have weaknesses/strengths meaning most games would be coin flips. This is nonsense. Then it should be easy to give a counterpoint, instead of just saying it's "nonsense" Go a-move with your marine-marauder medivac ghost viking against a P who microes and positions himself well. Be sure to let me know how it went. What does the P have? As long as you use EMP (something gold leaguers can do) then the question is much more about unit comp really. Your ignorace is amazing, no offense. I am speechless. I dont know how to reply to this in a serious way. Ok... if the protoss has stalker/collosus he'll lose if he has charge zealot/archon/HT he'll probably win, even without micro. Do you in all seriousness believe unit control and positioning doesnt matter? They do, positioning more so than control, but unit comps matter 10x more, especially in SC2.
We're talking about micro, but nice try to derail our lovely conversation.
Edit: you claimed *you cant really micro in SC2 past early mid game* I am glad you've come to realize how foolish that statement was.
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I think people should stop invoking things that took BW years to accomplish as a massively popular game. It didn't start that way, it wasn't like that from year one.People have had access to this game for a year, it's changed rapidly. It isn't safe to safe the game is established or figured out in the slightest.
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On July 14 2011 07:48 aFF.TEEN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:47 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:44 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:43 Dariusz wrote:
It's not the case. Skillcap in SC2 is still out of reach. Every aspect can be still improved even in the gameplay of best SC2 player in the world. He who says otherwise is trolling or plain stupid. Amen. Anyone with an opinion different from yours is stupid or trolling? Now who's ignorant... There are opinions and then there are facts. But I dont expect you to be able to tell the difference, no offense.
Apparently you don't either XD.
Skill cap has nothing to do with it, the article is talking more about skill GAP, something that is much closer in SC2 due to the easier mechanics.
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On July 14 2011 07:50 aFF.TEEN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:49 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:47 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:46 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:43 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:41 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:35 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:32 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:29 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:25 ak1knight wrote:
[quote]
Except you can't really micro in SC2 past early mid game, and strategies always have weaknesses/strengths meaning most games would be coin flips. This is nonsense. Then it should be easy to give a counterpoint, instead of just saying it's "nonsense" Go a-move with your marine-marauder medivac ghost viking against a P who microes and positions himself well. Be sure to let me know how it went. What does the P have? As long as you use EMP (something gold leaguers can do) then the question is much more about unit comp really. Your ignorace is amazing, no offense. I am speechless. I dont know how to reply to this in a serious way. Ok... if the protoss has stalker/collosus he'll lose if he has charge zealot/archon/HT he'll probably win, even without micro. Do you in all seriousness believe unit control and positioning doesnt matter? They do, positioning more so than control, but unit comps matter 10x more, especially in SC2. We're talking about micro, but nice try to derail our lovely conversation. Edit: you claimed *you cant really micro in SC2 past early mid game* I am glad you've come to realize how foolish that statement was.
I guess if you can consider the 5 apm it takes to create a good concave and get storm/emp/fungal off micro then you can micro,
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The article doesn't really bring anything new to the table, the claim that there is a lower skill cap is as old as the game and still is not backed by anything solid. Top level sc2 changed so much over the last months, it is ridiculous to try to predict the future.
P.S.: I believe korea pulled ahead because mechanics actually do matter quite a lot.
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On July 14 2011 07:54 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 07:50 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:49 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:47 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:46 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:43 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:41 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:35 aFF.TEEN wrote:On July 14 2011 07:32 ak1knight wrote:On July 14 2011 07:29 aFF.TEEN wrote:
[quote]
This is nonsense. Then it should be easy to give a counterpoint, instead of just saying it's "nonsense" Go a-move with your marine-marauder medivac ghost viking against a P who microes and positions himself well. Be sure to let me know how it went. What does the P have? As long as you use EMP (something gold leaguers can do) then the question is much more about unit comp really. Your ignorace is amazing, no offense. I am speechless. I dont know how to reply to this in a serious way. Ok... if the protoss has stalker/collosus he'll lose if he has charge zealot/archon/HT he'll probably win, even without micro. Do you in all seriousness believe unit control and positioning doesnt matter? They do, positioning more so than control, but unit comps matter 10x more, especially in SC2. We're talking about micro, but nice try to derail our lovely conversation. Edit: you claimed *you cant really micro in SC2 past early mid game* I am glad you've come to realize how foolish that statement was. I guess if you can consider the 5 apm it takes to create a good concave and get storm/emp/fungal off micro then you can micro,
I give up. You are out of reach.
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On July 13 2011 14:15 Moa wrote:Any game given competitors will gradually become increasingly competitive. Players have stated that they wanted to play SC2 because it is less competitive than brood war and they can be the best without working hard. This is slowly becoming untrue. SlayerS plays on a schedule similar to that of broodwar pros, as a result they came out of nowhere and wrecked the competition (see GSTL 1 & 2). They haven't had the same results in the current team league and that is not because they haven't been working hard, it is because other teams started working harder to stay relevant. Brood war took years to become as competitive as it is, SC2 is becoming more competitive at a fast pace. Even though it isn't as competitive as BW doesn't mean it won't be. The idea that SC2 cannot be as competitive as BW is because it is less testing mechanically is a farce. Any decent game can be more competitive than BW if people put more effort and thought into it than people put into BW. When playing Starcraft you aren't testing yourself against the game, you are testing yourself against your opponent. It is impossible for a human to micro perfectly, this is mechanically impossible for a human. Because it is not possible Starcraft 2 has a skill ceiling that is essentially unreachable. Long story short, if someone puts in 10 hours of practice a day they will beat the person who puts in 8 that defeat will cause the person who practices 8 hours to practice more. That is what drives competition, it is why all sports were less competitive early in their conception.
I agree with this person.
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A skill cap is not a learning curve. SC2 is easier to learn, but there is no indication that its skill cap limits the game.
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On July 14 2011 07:43 Dariusz wrote:
It's not the case. Skillcap in SC2 is still out of reach. Every aspect can be still improved even in the gameplay of best SC2 player in the world.
Pretty much this. Well written article, it was a good read and I admire the time put in.
But I can't see any truth behind it.
Just look at Foreigners vs Koreans; already there's a big gap created by practice regimes and the need for multi-tasking(skill) to play the game.
It's just a matter of time until we get a dominant player.
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@Xarthaz
I'm glad you agree that the only thing difficult with BW is the practice. Execution wise it's exactly the same as SC2. According to your logic at the least. Because once you reach the benchmark, it's simply understood that youre apt--and when you're apt at something the execution should now be considered easy. So by your logic, BW is as easy to play as SC2 and the only thing difficult with BW is learning it.
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When I can watch the top Starcraft 2 leagues and clearly see people failing in both mechanics and strategy I don't see the point in discussing some hypothetical skill ceiling. Starcraft 2 is immensely populair outside of Korea, and the lack of popularity (if you can even call it that) in Korea has a lot more to do with Broodwar being a lot more available to people through the PC bang. I think if Starcraft 2 would have been as widely available at it's release it would not only have been a lot more poular there but we'd also see a much higher quality of games. After all, thats where most Broodwar pros spent their time before becoming progamers.
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The volatility makes it hard to really find a superstar and stick with them. There isn't some typical cast of great players but a lot of interchanging parts. It's like if there was no MJ in basketball, I dont think there will ever be a flash or jaedong etc in SC 2. No players that play at that level and stay that consistent. That is good or bad based on your perspective.
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EPT
