The chat client and other Bnet features are pretty lame at the moment, i admit. You blame everything on greed yet have no real proof. You say this or that is simple yet you know nothing about how the client works or how much work it takes.
I'm a programmer and CS student myself, so i know some things about software development. Name change is already implemented just not free, so i call that one easy. Dnd also can't be too hard you just have to track the status on the serverside (which i presume they do cause it shows you the status of your friends in the client) and then don't pass the messages if the target is on "block" mode. Im well aware that other things are more difficult and that even little changes require extensive testing and deployment can fuck things up. But blizz has so much capacity that it really shouldn't be a problem
So you're saying the options Blizzard had was to either spend more money than they already did to try to get a *possibly* safe LAN system or ensure they prevent LAN abuse by saving money and not spend any resources in coding/testing it?
And you're confused why Blizzard decided to use the free option of not bothering with LAN? (Using your logic of course)
No, I was pointing out two things they could change easily and that would make the community happier. Yet they don't for whatever reason. They won't make any money out of it, probably on the contrary (they will charge for namechanges eventually - maybe it comes together with the map marketplace) so its just about doing the community a favor that doesnt cost them all too much. They decided not to do it which is a decision I dont like, cause the "old Blizzard" would probably have done it. My post was not about LAN mode, but I'll give you my opinion: I fully understand why there is no LAN. From a business perspective it is the logical thing to do, but I'm sure the game would have made profit even with it and all the piracy. I always hate it when they cut stuff because of piracy. Its just not fair. Because other people pirate the game the paying customer gets punished? I don't like that way of thinking. IMO Blizz shouldn't force customers to use their service to ensure they have to buy the game, but provide a service such good that people buy the game and use the service because of it.
I repeat my question.
But this time I'll use smaller words.
Why should blizzard spend extra effort (and money) to counteract something that shouldn't be done anyway?
For example. If rats steal an apple from your fruit bowl each day--does that mean you should buy one extra apple each time you buy groceries since you can't stop that rat anyway? Or should you buy a rat trap? OR you could pick the option where you stop buying fruits and just buy canned goods since rats can't steal canned food. Buying the rat trap requires bait, requires management, lots of time, etc... Just buying food that rats can't still is easy to do and removes the problem more quickly.
Your analogy is not really on spot. Let me extend it a bit: Say you have kids too and you want them to be healthy and happy. Your option is to tell the kids: "Shut up and sit down! The rat is stealing an apple everyday so from now on you will only eat canned food" and the kids will eventually be mad because they only get the canned stuff but love the real fruit. I would say give the rat that 1 apple a day, it doesn't cost you that much that it would ruin you and your kids are a lot happier and healthier that way. And who knows, maybe the rat will prove to be useful some day. The Analogy is still a bit off because pirating doesn't take away something you already own (like say, an apple, but only potential customers and it might generate additional customers too (if not for the pirated game, maybe for the sequel?).
TL;DR: As I said before, to not include LAN is the business thing to do. Including it would in turn please the customers and make them more loyal to your company and products. If it would gain or lose them money I'm not sure about: Piracy can have a lot of effects, negative and positive and I don't know how it would eventually influence SC2 in the long run.
Actually, with kid's in the analogy, the only realistic option is to kill the rat and to empty the house as you poison everything inside hoping everything dies as you and your kids wait for the slaughter to finish.
At that point, the rat would wish the parent simply got canned goods instead.
I wanna see that internet pirate poison! I think you got what I meant, so there is no point in further arguing about the accuracy of the analogy. Ya know, I just wanna have LAN
I agree. When they find a way to stop piracy without something as awful as most drm (which doesnt stop anyone i should add) I absolutely think they should include it in everything.
But the thing i was getting at was that cutting LAN support and limiting your customers (aka must be online to play) will improve your sales BUT giving your customers all you can and supporting them will improve your sales by as much. There was a youtube video earlier in this thread with Gabe Newell talking about how piracy isnt a problem for them, i encourage everyone to look at it.
edit: [/QUOTE]
That video is old, I'm sure Gabe Newell acknowledge that pirates is a big problem for pc, as portal 2 was a complete failure on the pc sales compared to consoles.
On June 23 2011 18:58 NicolBolas wrote: It's a despicable attitude, the pretense of nobility hiding the withered, blackened heart of decadence and corruption.
Are we still talking about a guy who occasionally downloads games?
On June 23 2011 19:18 Geo.Rion wrote: this is stupid. It's like saying internet killed the music industry cuz ppl download the songs.
Actually, the music industry loved the internet UNTIL piracy reared its ugly head. The music and film industry LOVE being able to have websites with samples and trailers and all the other wonderful things the internet has. The music industry is specifically complaining about piracy.
Music industry also hated radioes and fought against them, untill they realized they were actually extremely helpfull.
Not to mention the lawsuits against VCRs and tape recorders. The companys that survives is always the ones that changes with the times and changes their way of work.
The music industry is making money, more than ever, but not on CD sales. New business models and major sales in live events and merchandise is bigger than the losses of fewer CD sales. The future business model in gaming is min transactions and online control, something that doesn't include lan.
On June 23 2011 19:18 Geo.Rion wrote: this is stupid. It's like saying internet killed the music industry cuz ppl download the songs.
Actually, the music industry loved the internet UNTIL piracy reared its ugly head. The music and film industry LOVE being able to have websites with samples and trailers and all the other wonderful things the internet has. The music industry is specifically complaining about piracy.
Music industry also hated radioes and fought against them, untill they realized they were actually extremely helpfull.
...........
Um.....
The Music Industry have always liked Radio.
It was a way for them to tour without having to pay for a bus/plan/car.
Good Games will sell well, FACT! Bad games won't sell well and pointing at piracy won't make the game better. Delevop better Games and stop trying to search for excuses!
On June 23 2011 19:18 Geo.Rion wrote: this is stupid. It's like saying internet killed the music industry cuz ppl download the songs.
Actually, the music industry loved the internet UNTIL piracy reared its ugly head. The music and film industry LOVE being able to have websites with samples and trailers and all the other wonderful things the internet has. The music industry is specifically complaining about piracy.
Music industry also hated radioes and fought against them, untill they realized they were actually extremely helpfull.
...........
Um.....
The Music Industry have always liked Radio.
It was a way for them to tour without having to pay for a bus/plan/car.
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
They did not. I dont know much on this issue but ask an expert and they will tell you the same, I got this information from an interview with Howard Bloom, a guy who has been a big part of the industry and launched careers of some big big names. (I cant link you to this interview sadly, its a set of interview and together theyre like 10hours + and the music industry part is just a small segment of them)
On June 23 2011 18:57 gnutz wrote: No LAN and LAN do nothing in favor or against piracy at all. All piraters will pirate and crack their games, every DRM was cracked what was yet released. There is nothing what prevents piracy.
Couldn't be more wrong. Now if you want to play against other players you HAVE to buy the game. Pirated versions allow u to play against AI and single player I guess. If they implement LAN you will be able to play against other players on pirated version as well, because EVERY security system can be and will be cracked. It's just a matter of time and effort put. So yea, it will decrease the number of copies bought in favour of pirated copies.
As much as I'd like to have LAN I really think that it might be better to not put it instead of putting it in so it can be pirated easily. On the other hand with such a larger programming force in Blizzard they should be able to come up with a solution.
On June 23 2011 19:18 Geo.Rion wrote: this is stupid. It's like saying internet killed the music industry cuz ppl download the songs.
Actually, the music industry loved the internet UNTIL piracy reared its ugly head. The music and film industry LOVE being able to have websites with samples and trailers and all the other wonderful things the internet has. The music industry is specifically complaining about piracy.
Music industry also hated radioes and fought against them, untill they realized they were actually extremely helpfull.
...........
Um.....
The Music Industry have always liked Radio.
It was a way for them to tour without having to pay for a bus/plan/car.
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
They did not. I dont know much on this issue but ask an expert and they will tell you the same, I got this information from an interview with Howard Bloom, a guy who has been a big part of the industry and launched careers of some big big names. (I cant link you to this interview sadly, its a set of interview and together theyre like 10hours + and the music industry part is just a small segment of them)
Early AM radio was news, sports and music. FM radio did not come about until later and was mostly instrumental music. Some time after that was when the more "popular" form of music started to take shape.
But the music and radio had been together long before FM came into power.
On June 23 2011 19:41 Jedi Master wrote: Good Games will sell well, FACT! Bad games won't sell well and pointing at piracy won't make the game better. Delevop better Games and stop trying to search for excuses!
The only thing LAN provides that Battlenet doesn't is the ability to play games against other humans when you don't have an internet connection.
Everything else AND MORE is provided by Battlenet 2.0
If you're having a problem with lag--get better internet. It's not Blizzard's responsibility you have crappy hardware.
On June 23 2011 07:10 mdma-_- wrote: that still doesnt explain why they cant allow people to play each other in lan with the necessecity of being logged into bnet/whatever online client.
cheap excuse just to blame it on pirates tbh
Hackers could fairly easily remove all safeguards like a log-in requirement.
yes but the cracks that are coded would be invalid the next patch. And what does that have to do with a lan?
On June 23 2011 19:18 Geo.Rion wrote: this is stupid. It's like saying internet killed the music industry cuz ppl download the songs.
Actually, the music industry loved the internet UNTIL piracy reared its ugly head. The music and film industry LOVE being able to have websites with samples and trailers and all the other wonderful things the internet has. The music industry is specifically complaining about piracy.
Music industry also hated radioes and fought against them, untill they realized they were actually extremely helpfull.
...........
Um.....
The Music Industry have always liked Radio.
It was a way for them to tour without having to pay for a bus/plan/car.
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
No No, not even in the US
[...] A publisher could not, once he had sold sheet music prevent, or more to the point profit from, his song being performed or played; there was no legal recourse. Publishers realised that the developments in the film and radio industries would be difficult to tap as potential revenue sources. To remedy this situation the American Society of Composers, Authors and
Publishers (ASCAP) was formed for the purpose of issuing licences and collecting royalties. Although formed in 1914, ASCAP did not begin issuing royalty cheques to its members until 1921. American radio broadcasters resisted pressure to make royalty payments for the records they played. Radio it was claimed, had bought the records and so, according to American law, had a legal right to play them. Besides which, playing records on the radio was tantamount to free advertising. A battle of monumental proportions followed. ASCAP was determined to collect its royalties on radio play - which was fast becoming the major distribution media for music since its coming of age as a major commercial venture in 1921. And the broadcasters were equally determined not to pay. The broadcasters claimed that ASCAP was acting as a monopoly (which it was) and after having ASCAP outlawed in several states, eventually in 1939, the broadcasters formed Broadcast Music Incorporated (BMI) as a rival to ASCAP. Many of the musicians and composers who had been excluded from ASCAP (Appalachian musicians, country fiddlers, blues singers, and New Orleans jazz men) joined the BMI and began to get increasing exposure and payments for the air-play of their recordings. However, further disruption occurred in the US industry when the American Federation of Musicians called a strike in 1942 that lasted over a year. To put these problems into perspective, the US music market had the around same value in 1945 as it had in 1920, despite the significant technological improvements. Concurrent with the problems of profiting from the new media of radio, the music industry also saw another key development in the 1930’s and 1940’s. This was the development of the ‘Star System’. Jack Kapp and Ted Lewis
incorporated Decca Records in 1934. Instead of investing in machinery for the manufacture of records, Kapp focused his attention on a limited roster of heavily promoted ‘stars’. First among these were Bing Crosby and the Dorsey Brothers. As well as organising promotion for these artists, Kapp also concentrated on supplying the growing network of jukeboxes with Decca records, and perhaps most importantly, halved the retail price of a record. Jukeboxes had been popular in the South for a long time before they caught on in the north. One of the reasons for this was that they acted as an outlet for the music that didn’t get played on the radio (in particular black music).
On June 23 2011 19:41 Jedi Master wrote: Good Games will sell well, FACT! Bad games won't sell well and pointing at piracy won't make the game better. Delevop better Games and stop trying to search for excuses!
You're totally not getting the point. This thread is about why RTS games won't have LAN mode, and not about sales figures. (Also, bad games won't sell? What world do you live in?)
On June 23 2011 19:23 xlep wrote: In my opinion this whole argument is bullshit cooked up by some financial consultant because it's an easy way to promise the companies better results.
Sure there are some die-hard pirates that won't buy games no matter what but most people are reasonable with that stuff. I've got a bunch of online pals from my WoW time that started working by now (back then they were students as I am and pirated the shit out of new games like I do now...). When they started making money and having more available to spend they started buying more games.
They buy MMOs like Star Trek that they only test for some days or just go through the release lists of the months and preorder the stuff they're interested in.
Honestly: make good games that players will enjoy and you'll make money. If it's not enough you either spend too much making the game or you simply think you should get more than you will ever get...
and LAN doesn't even have anything to do with that at all... sure a few people play with tools like hamachi (at least that's what we used about 5 years ago), but it's not like a LAN modus "enables" you to pirate and play online... Who the hell pirates a game to play it in LAN modus over the internet? Are LAN parties such a big thing anywhere that you gotta "guard" your multiplayer by giving the games no LAN? Is Hamachi such a big hazard with millions of users playing pirated games there?
Honestly: What bullshit! Those guys are only damaging themselves by not adding LAN to "Esport" games
Their decision to remove LAN might or might not be a good decision. It might or might not hurt their business to do so. It's reasonable to be upset that there is no LAN.
What is not unreasonable is to believe that it's a bad idea for a company to not want their game to be pirated.
Imagine a world where piracy is legal. Perfectly Legal.
Blizzard releases SC2. Valve decides to grab it, copy the files to CDs and since they didn't need to spend any money on research and development they can sell the game at 2-3 dollars a CD. Blizzard goes bankrupt and never releases a game again. Valve does this for every single one of its competitors. Valve is now the only company that sells games. They then release games that have the most antipiracy protection that the world has ever known going so far as needing your DNA to turn on the programs you buy in order to protect its market share.
Just because the pirate feels that it is harmless does not mean that it is.
You sir, have the brain of deranged parrot. You do not understand the meaning of pirating. Learn Intellectual Property Law.
Pirating is not the act of selling a product, but merely making illegal copy's of a product.
Selling of an illegally copied product is a whole other story.
One thing I think is funny is this: Hypothetically I could copy a billion copy's of every software on the face of the planet to a billion other earth like planets. Where they also "pirated" to a billion more. AND YET, it would have not fucking effect on us, because it's just a fucking copy and it's not like the programmers are fucking curling over dying every time someone makes an illegal copy.
The only people who are suffering are the sad sorts who invested their lives into make a shitty product that no one buys. So the have a cry over it all, they cry in their warm beds. Why? Warm bed? Cause their fucking programmers with Computers COMPUTERS FUCKING COST MONEY. PROGRAMMING TAKES A LIFE STYLE OF MONEY TO LEARN. BIG FUCKING WHOOP IF ALREADY WELL OFF PEOPLE GET LESS MONEY. DESIGN A BETTER PRODUCT. GIVE BETTER SERVICES.
On June 23 2011 19:23 xlep wrote: In my opinion this whole argument is bullshit cooked up by some financial consultant because it's an easy way to promise the companies better results.
Sure there are some die-hard pirates that won't buy games no matter what but most people are reasonable with that stuff. I've got a bunch of online pals from my WoW time that started working by now (back then they were students as I am and pirated the shit out of new games like I do now...). When they started making money and having more available to spend they started buying more games.
They buy MMOs like Star Trek that they only test for some days or just go through the release lists of the months and preorder the stuff they're interested in.
Honestly: make good games that players will enjoy and you'll make money. If it's not enough you either spend too much making the game or you simply think you should get more than you will ever get...
and LAN doesn't even have anything to do with that at all... sure a few people play with tools like hamachi (at least that's what we used about 5 years ago), but it's not like a LAN modus "enables" you to pirate and play online... Who the hell pirates a game to play it in LAN modus over the internet? Are LAN parties such a big thing anywhere that you gotta "guard" your multiplayer by giving the games no LAN? Is Hamachi such a big hazard with millions of users playing pirated games there?
Honestly: What bullshit! Those guys are only damaging themselves by not adding LAN to "Esport" games
Their decision to remove LAN might or might not be a good decision. It might or might not hurt their business to do so. It's reasonable to be upset that there is no LAN.
What is not unreasonable is to believe that it's a bad idea for a company to not want their game to be pirated.
Imagine a world where piracy is legal. Perfectly Legal.
Blizzard releases SC2. Valve decides to grab it, copy the files to CDs and since they didn't need to spend any money on research and development they can sell the game at 2-3 dollars a CD. Blizzard goes bankrupt and never releases a game again. Valve does this for every single one of its competitors. Valve is now the only company that sells games. They then release games that have the most antipiracy protection that the world has ever known going so far as needing your DNA to turn on the programs you buy in order to protect its market share.
Just because the pirate feels that it is harmless does not mean that it is.
You sir, have the brain of deranged parrot. You do not understand the meaning of pirating. Learn Intellectual Property Law.
Pirating is not the act of selling a product, but merely making illegal copy's of a product.
Selling of an illegally copied product is a whole other story.
One thing I think is funny is this: Hypothetically I could copy a billion copy's of every software on the face of the planet to a billion other earth like planets. Where they also "pirated" to a billion more. AND YET, it would have not fucking effect on us, because it's just a fucking copy and it's not like the programmers are fucking curling over dying every time someone makes an illegal copy.
The only people who are suffering are the sad sorts who invested their lives into make a shitty product that no one buys. So the have a cry over it all, they cry in their warm beds. Why? Warm bed? Cause their fucking programmers with Computers COMPUTERS FUCKING COST MONEY. PROGRAMMING TAKES A LIFE STYLE OF MONEY TO LEARN. BIG FUCKING WHOOP IF ALREADY WELL OFF PEOPLE GET LESS MONEY. DESIGN A BETTER PRODUCT. GIVE BETTER SERVICES.
pfft
This post makes my head hurt. "fucking this, fucking that" and caps galore.
LAN is great. It allows players to play each other at 0ms (or near 0ms if you wanna get picky about it) without having to rely on their internet connection. The problem with the lack of LAN is that if you invite 16 of your friends over to have a party in your basement, everyone would be uploading to and downloading from some server that's kilometers away just to play with people in the same room.
I believe Starcraft 2 desperately needs LAN, especially for big tournaments in America (because American internet blows). The problem is that we don't live in a perfect world where pirates don't exist, so Blizzard has to make compromises. They have shareholders to please, anyway.
Any relevant discussion on the topic of piracy is precluded by our lack of hard data. We simply do not know enough to draw definite conclusions. At the moment we have generalizations, biased statements coming from the developers (i.e. the victims), and therefore untrustworthy, and the occasional outright lie.
Until enough data is gathered, and the complex nuances of using digital products understood, we will be knocking our heads against a wall of our own making.
EPT
