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It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned. |
On June 29 2011 11:36 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 11:22 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:16 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Mods must enjoy reading my posts. Lol or still trying to figure out what you actually mean or if you really do have a point? sorry this might be my opinion, But i still feel the need to express it . I would express my honest opinion here but I don't want to disparage the Canadian education system.
What the fact that you need some kind of facts to be brought up with a point not just peoples opinions?
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E: Actually no need to flamebait destiny fans.
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On June 29 2011 12:29 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 11:36 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 11:22 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:16 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Mods must enjoy reading my posts. Lol or still trying to figure out what you actually mean or if you really do have a point? sorry this might be my opinion, But i still feel the need to express it . I would express my honest opinion here but I don't want to disparage the Canadian education system. What the fact that you need some kind of facts to be brought up with a point not just peoples opinions?
Hah. My "opinions" are the only ones I've heard with any sort of factual basis, both historical and linguistical.
I mean, seriously, I have pointed to entomology along with current, common usage and definition, while your response has been "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man."
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Looks like they were clearing salary cap space.
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On June 29 2011 13:14 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 12:29 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:36 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 11:22 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:16 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Mods must enjoy reading my posts. Lol or still trying to figure out what you actually mean or if you really do have a point? sorry this might be my opinion, But i still feel the need to express it . I would express my honest opinion here but I don't want to disparage the Canadian education system. What the fact that you need some kind of facts to be brought up with a point not just peoples opinions? Hah. My "opinions" are the only ones I've heard with any sort of factual basis, both historical and linguistical. I mean, seriously, I have pointed to entomology along with current, common usage and definition, while your response has been "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man."
Really when did you do this is it in another forum. You posted some intersting piece about how words can still affect people Which is true but there is a lot of words out there that can make people have a negative reaction, even ones people more commonly dont think about. You have not pointed out any actual facts. There has not been one fact other than the meaning of the word when not used in context is a racial slur. I dont see where you have actualy thought you did. But you seem to think you have provided anything factual. Which to my knowledge fact need a evidence to back it up which you havent. You have not made a clear well established point that using a racial slur in a non racial way does still retain its racial slur. So i am sorry if i assume they are your opinions but with out evidence that would just be an opinion. Even theroys need some kind of evidence to suggest that they are true.
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I really hope someone picks up Destiny. I really enjoyed watching him grow as a player while being part of a team.
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On June 29 2011 13:38 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:14 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 12:29 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:36 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 11:22 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:16 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Mods must enjoy reading my posts. Lol or still trying to figure out what you actually mean or if you really do have a point? sorry this might be my opinion, But i still feel the need to express it . I would express my honest opinion here but I don't want to disparage the Canadian education system. What the fact that you need some kind of facts to be brought up with a point not just peoples opinions? Hah. My "opinions" are the only ones I've heard with any sort of factual basis, both historical and linguistical. I mean, seriously, I have pointed to entomology along with current, common usage and definition, while your response has been "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man." Really when did you do this is it in another forum. You posted some intersting piece about how words can still affect people Which is true but there is a lot of words out there that can make people have a negative reaction, even ones people more commonly dont think about. You have not pointed out any actual facts. There has not been one fact other than the meaning of the word when not used in context is a racial slur. I dont see where you have actualy thought you did. But you seem to think you have provided anything factual. Which to my knowledge fact need a evidence to back it up which you havent. You have not made a clear well established point that using a racial slur in a non racial way does still retain its racial slur. So i am sorry if i assume they are your opinions but with out evidence that would just be an opinion. Even theroys need some kind of evidence to suggest that they are true.
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.
No, but seriously, what are the pejorative qualities in the words "nigger" or "faggot" that are derived from a non prejudicial source?
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On June 29 2011 13:46 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:38 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 13:14 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 12:29 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:36 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 11:22 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:16 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Mods must enjoy reading my posts. Lol or still trying to figure out what you actually mean or if you really do have a point? sorry this might be my opinion, But i still feel the need to express it . I would express my honest opinion here but I don't want to disparage the Canadian education system. What the fact that you need some kind of facts to be brought up with a point not just peoples opinions? Hah. My "opinions" are the only ones I've heard with any sort of factual basis, both historical and linguistical. I mean, seriously, I have pointed to entomology along with current, common usage and definition, while your response has been "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man." Really when did you do this is it in another forum. You posted some intersting piece about how words can still affect people Which is true but there is a lot of words out there that can make people have a negative reaction, even ones people more commonly dont think about. You have not pointed out any actual facts. There has not been one fact other than the meaning of the word when not used in context is a racial slur. I dont see where you have actualy thought you did. But you seem to think you have provided anything factual. Which to my knowledge fact need a evidence to back it up which you havent. You have not made a clear well established point that using a racial slur in a non racial way does still retain its racial slur. So i am sorry if i assume they are your opinions but with out evidence that would just be an opinion. Even theroys need some kind of evidence to suggest that they are true. Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man. No, but seriously, what are the pejorative qualities in the words "nigger" or "faggot" that are derived from a non prejudicial source?
wikipedia make it easy for you have some good reading? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative and if your going to fight for those words why not start fighting every one on these list of words too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur . Hmmm pretty sure that is self explanatory for you. Hope you dont miss my opinion... Or wait let me guess wikipedia doesnt decide how words are used and its only society. Or some other lame excuse. Or did i miss you meaning again?
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On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time.
Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly?
You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane.
(And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.)
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On June 29 2011 14:23 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time. Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly? You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.)
Ummm how did he fight valiantly and win. The person never brought one peice of evidence but if you want to wikipedia all the things he claim are true its quite easy to see that ,cearly, he has no case. If its an opinion he expressed than he has that right but he claims it is not with no evidence and substanisal evidence to prove him wrong ummm pretty sure he is wrong.
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On June 29 2011 14:27 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 14:23 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time. Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly? You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.) Ummm how did he fight valiantly and win. The person never brought one peice of evidence but if you want to wikipedia all the things he claim are true its quite easy to see that ,cearly, he has no case. If its an opinion he expressed than he has that right but he claims it is not with no evidence and substanisal evidence to prove him wrong ummm pretty sure he is wrong.
Just shut up already, jesus.
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On June 29 2011 15:14 Carryz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 14:27 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 14:23 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time. Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly? You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.) Ummm how did he fight valiantly and win. The person never brought one peice of evidence but if you want to wikipedia all the things he claim are true its quite easy to see that ,cearly, he has no case. If its an opinion he expressed than he has that right but he claims it is not with no evidence and substanisal evidence to prove him wrong ummm pretty sure he is wrong. Just shut up already, jesus.
Sure, just pointing out facts though
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On June 29 2011 14:27 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 14:23 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time. Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly? You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.) Ummm how did he fight valiantly and win. The person never brought one peice of evidence but if you want to wikipedia all the things he claim are true its quite easy to see that ,cearly, he has no case. If its an opinion he expressed than he has that right but he claims it is not with no evidence and substanisal evidence to prove him wrong ummm pretty sure he is wrong.
You're trying to use a remedial source like Wikipedia to score superficial, easy points. That's not something to be proud of; that's lazy.
Other posters have been backpedalling, repeatedly changing or altering their position.
He's trying to have a thoughtful, challenging discussion of the word Nigger. Even though it can be interpreted differently in different contexts, he has convincingly argued that you can't divorce race from it's meaning, regardless of context. Like you yourself implied, if the word weren't racially-charged, white people wouldn't fetishize it. This is a critical point that his opponents would have never considered or conceded if he wasn't so persistent.
TLDR; bahl sofs tiil is victorious.
And to answer the question, "What is his point?" ... He obviously enjoys arguing. And not losing.
Edit: We should probably stop derailing this thread. I feel bad for Destiny now.
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On June 29 2011 14:00 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 13:46 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 13:38 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 13:14 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 12:29 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:36 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 11:22 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:16 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Mods must enjoy reading my posts. Lol or still trying to figure out what you actually mean or if you really do have a point? sorry this might be my opinion, But i still feel the need to express it . I would express my honest opinion here but I don't want to disparage the Canadian education system. What the fact that you need some kind of facts to be brought up with a point not just peoples opinions? Hah. My "opinions" are the only ones I've heard with any sort of factual basis, both historical and linguistical. I mean, seriously, I have pointed to entomology along with current, common usage and definition, while your response has been "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man." Really when did you do this is it in another forum. You posted some intersting piece about how words can still affect people Which is true but there is a lot of words out there that can make people have a negative reaction, even ones people more commonly dont think about. You have not pointed out any actual facts. There has not been one fact other than the meaning of the word when not used in context is a racial slur. I dont see where you have actualy thought you did. But you seem to think you have provided anything factual. Which to my knowledge fact need a evidence to back it up which you havent. You have not made a clear well established point that using a racial slur in a non racial way does still retain its racial slur. So i am sorry if i assume they are your opinions but with out evidence that would just be an opinion. Even theroys need some kind of evidence to suggest that they are true. Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man. No, but seriously, what are the pejorative qualities in the words "nigger" or "faggot" that are derived from a non prejudicial source? wikipedia make it easy for you have some good reading? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative and if your going to fight for those words why not start fighting every one on these list of words too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur . Hmmm pretty sure that is self explanatory for you. Hope you dont miss my opinion... Or wait let me guess wikipedia doesnt decide how words are used and its only society. Or some other lame excuse. Or did i miss you meaning again?
How can you consider this an adequate response? You didn't even attempt to answer my question. You've literally said nothing and just linked to some pages without relating them to the discussion at all. I mean...come on, man!
Ugh...
For http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative are you talking about this?
Sometimes a term may begin as a pejorative word and eventually be adopted in a non-pejorative sense.
Because that hasn't happened. Let's go back to the dictionaries you listed earlier:
http://define.com/nigger
1. A negro; -- in vulgar derision or depreciation. It is usually intended and interpreted as highly insulting and vulgar.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nigger
1.
a. Used as a disparaging term for a Black person: "You can only be destroyed by believing that you really are what the white world calls a nigger" (James Baldwin).
b. Used as a disparaging term for a member of any dark-skinned people.
and my personal favorite:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nigger
The term nigger is now probably the most offensive word in English. Its degree of offensiveness has increased markedly in recent years, although it has been used in a derogatory manner since at least the Revolutionary War.
So, no melioration here. Perhaps you meant this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative
Within some social groups, a particular term is still regarded as being a pejorative, whereas the term is not deemed as such within another social group elsewhere (e.g., "hacker").
Except the meaning isn't changing from social group to social group, what is changing is if that meaning is insulting. This is actually an excellent example for why black people can call each other "nigger" without it being offensive. More outside sources supporting me. Fantastic!
As for the next link, I guess I will that with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur
The following is a list of ethnic slurs (ethnophaulisms) that are, or have been, used as insinuations or allegations about members of a given ethnicity or to refer to them in a derogatory (critical or disrespectful), pejorative (disapproving or contemptuous), or insulting manner in the English-speaking world.
Many of these aren't in common use these days or are no longer offensive or, much more importantly, do not have the same level of hate in their history. Additionally, many of them have entomological origins that are entirely separate from their racial meanings and were adapted into slurs, making them far more versatile and far more detachable from their hateful form. However, I will say that using many of these words to refer to a person would certainly carry their hateful meaning. Regardless, I really don't see what this line of discussion is pertinent.
On June 29 2011 14:23 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time. Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly? You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.)
But...but he is just so wrong in nearly every single thing he says. AAAAAAAAAAH! IT BURNS US!
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On June 29 2011 15:21 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 14:27 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 14:23 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time. Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly? You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.) Ummm how did he fight valiantly and win. The person never brought one peice of evidence but if you want to wikipedia all the things he claim are true its quite easy to see that ,cearly, he has no case. If its an opinion he expressed than he has that right but he claims it is not with no evidence and substanisal evidence to prove him wrong ummm pretty sure he is wrong. You're trying to use a remedial source like Wikipedia to score superficial, easy points. That's not something to be proud of; that's lazy. Other posters have been backpedalling, repeatedly changing or altering their position. He's trying to have a thoughtful, challenging discussion of the word Nigger. Even though it can be interpreted differently in different contexts, he has convincingly argued that you can't divorce race from it's meaning, regardless of context. Like you yourself implied, if the word weren't racially-charged, white people wouldn't fetishize it. This is a critical point that his opponents would have never considered or conceded if he wasn't so persistent. TLDR; bahl sofs tiil is victorious. And to answer the question, "What is his point?" ... He obviously enjoys arguing. And not losing. Edit: We should probably stop derailing this thread. I feel bad for Destiny now.
I agree i feel bad for destiny for ignorant people not understanding what they are talking about. Yes i use information to provide the facts for me. Facts speaker louder than a people saying it is as it is with out some actual backing. Look at the stuff i provided and read it. For Some reason places like wikipedia disprove it does it make it true no. But look at the other ethnic slurs take the word oreo can you divorce the race from that slur given its usage? Or what about White nigger can you do it with that word? You can take the race away from up if you using it in a context that is not directed at that race. Given the context the race could stay , or it could not. Is it really that hard of a concept ?
Your right it has been thoughtful if it is given his opinion but its not he has already stated that so other than that he has not really provided anything that i have seen other than what he deems is true. Its easy enough for some one say it true, its a different story when you have to back up what you say. which he has not
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Every link you have posted has agreed with me.
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Let me add my own opinion. I am Chinese and have been studying abroad for quite a number of years, so I think I should speak my mind out as I have come across some cases like these.
Each word carries its own history and past, be it the new meme like "lulz" or more traditional words like "love".
The interpretation of the wordings is however, a lot more complicated.
It is not only about "who, when, where, how, what, why", the word can be offensive by itself but interpretating the word solely rather than the whole sentence is just stupid.
There is a reason why "fuc*" is used more than "god damn" in modern ages. Words change their meanings and is a way to reflect the society's situation because words we use are both affecting and affected by our society.
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On June 29 2011 15:34 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 15:21 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2011 14:27 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 14:23 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time. Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly? You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.) Ummm how did he fight valiantly and win. The person never brought one peice of evidence but if you want to wikipedia all the things he claim are true its quite easy to see that ,cearly, he has no case. If its an opinion he expressed than he has that right but he claims it is not with no evidence and substanisal evidence to prove him wrong ummm pretty sure he is wrong. You're trying to use a remedial source like Wikipedia to score superficial, easy points. That's not something to be proud of; that's lazy. Other posters have been backpedalling, repeatedly changing or altering their position. He's trying to have a thoughtful, challenging discussion of the word Nigger. Even though it can be interpreted differently in different contexts, he has convincingly argued that you can't divorce race from it's meaning, regardless of context. Like you yourself implied, if the word weren't racially-charged, white people wouldn't fetishize it. This is a critical point that his opponents would have never considered or conceded if he wasn't so persistent. TLDR; bahl sofs tiil is victorious. And to answer the question, "What is his point?" ... He obviously enjoys arguing. And not losing. Edit: We should probably stop derailing this thread. I feel bad for Destiny now. I agree i feel bad for destiny for ignorant people not understanding what they are talking about. Yes i use information to provide the facts for me. Facts speaker louder than a people saying it is as it is with out some actual backing. Look at the stuff i provided and read it. For Some reason places like wikipedia disprove it does it make it true no. But look at the other ethnic slurs take the word oreo can you divorce the race from that slur given its usage? Or what about White nigger can you do it with that word? You can take the race away from up if you using it in a context that is not directed at that race. Given the context the race could stay , or it could not. Is it really that hard of a concept ? Your right it has been thoughtful if it is given his opinion but its not he has already stated that so other than that he has not really provided anything that i have seen other than what he deems is true. Its easy enough for some one say it true, its a different story when you have to back up what you say. which he has not
1) The fact that there are other ethnic slurs, or that commonplace words can be used as ethic slurs, does not disprove his argument.
2) We really should take this discussion someplace else. I would be happy to continue this discussion in a more appropriate thread, and quite frankly, I'm late to this party.
It's a little unfair for Destiny to be associated with the word 'nigger' and it's discussion for the rest of his career.
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How the fuck can some1 bring up this language shit again.
Let it go ffs.
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On June 29 2011 15:23 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 14:00 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 13:46 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 13:38 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 13:14 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 12:29 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:36 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 11:22 badcnr wrote:On June 29 2011 11:16 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Mods must enjoy reading my posts. Lol or still trying to figure out what you actually mean or if you really do have a point? sorry this might be my opinion, But i still feel the need to express it . I would express my honest opinion here but I don't want to disparage the Canadian education system. What the fact that you need some kind of facts to be brought up with a point not just peoples opinions? Hah. My "opinions" are the only ones I've heard with any sort of factual basis, both historical and linguistical. I mean, seriously, I have pointed to entomology along with current, common usage and definition, while your response has been "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man." Really when did you do this is it in another forum. You posted some intersting piece about how words can still affect people Which is true but there is a lot of words out there that can make people have a negative reaction, even ones people more commonly dont think about. You have not pointed out any actual facts. There has not been one fact other than the meaning of the word when not used in context is a racial slur. I dont see where you have actualy thought you did. But you seem to think you have provided anything factual. Which to my knowledge fact need a evidence to back it up which you havent. You have not made a clear well established point that using a racial slur in a non racial way does still retain its racial slur. So i am sorry if i assume they are your opinions but with out evidence that would just be an opinion. Even theroys need some kind of evidence to suggest that they are true. Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man. No, but seriously, what are the pejorative qualities in the words "nigger" or "faggot" that are derived from a non prejudicial source? wikipedia make it easy for you have some good reading? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative and if your going to fight for those words why not start fighting every one on these list of words too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur . Hmmm pretty sure that is self explanatory for you. Hope you dont miss my opinion... Or wait let me guess wikipedia doesnt decide how words are used and its only society. Or some other lame excuse. Or did i miss you meaning again? How can you consider this an adequate response? You didn't even attempt to answer my question. You've literally said nothing and just linked to some pages without relating them to the discussion at all. I mean...come on, man! Ugh... For http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative are you talking about this? Show nested quote +Sometimes a term may begin as a pejorative word and eventually be adopted in a non-pejorative sense. Because that hasn't happened. Let's go back to the dictionaries you listed earlier: http://define.com/niggerShow nested quote +1. A negro; -- in vulgar derision or depreciation. It is usually intended and interpreted as highly insulting and vulgar.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/niggerShow nested quote +1.
a. Used as a disparaging term for a Black person: "You can only be destroyed by believing that you really are what the white world calls a nigger" (James Baldwin).
b. Used as a disparaging term for a member of any dark-skinned people. and my personal favorite: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/niggerShow nested quote +The term nigger is now probably the most offensive word in English. Its degree of offensiveness has increased markedly in recent years, although it has been used in a derogatory manner since at least the Revolutionary War. So, no melioration here. Perhaps you meant this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PejorativeShow nested quote +Within some social groups, a particular term is still regarded as being a pejorative, whereas the term is not deemed as such within another social group elsewhere (e.g., "hacker"). Except the meaning isn't changing from social group to social group, what is changing is if that meaning is insulting. This is actually an excellent example for why black people can call each other "nigger" without it being offensive. More outside sources supporting me. Fantastic! As for the next link, I guess I will that with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slurShow nested quote +The following is a list of ethnic slurs (ethnophaulisms) that are, or have been, used as insinuations or allegations about members of a given ethnicity or to refer to them in a derogatory (critical or disrespectful), pejorative (disapproving or contemptuous), or insulting manner in the English-speaking world. Many of these aren't in common use these days or are no longer offensive or, much more importantly, do not have the same level of hate in their history. Additionally, many of them have entomological origins that are entirely separate from their racial meanings and were adapted into slurs, making them far more versatile and far more detachable from their hateful form. However, I will say that using many of these words to refer to a person would certainly carry their hateful meaning. Regardless, I really don't see what this line of discussion is pertinent. Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 14:23 Defacer wrote:On June 29 2011 09:11 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 29 2011 06:00 Belial88 wrote:^lol . However, these words do have dark, hateful meanings behind them. If you want to use them anyway in the name of humor, that is your prerogative but don't try to downplay what they mean and rationalize their meaning away. When did I, or anyone else, or Destiny, downplayed what they mean or rationalize their meaning away? We are well aware that in certain contexts, these words are harmful, and can bring up pains and troubles for people that they themselves are powerless to have avoided. So I ask again - what is your point? Are you trying to say Destiny is bad for e-sports? Are you not trying to say he offends you but he offends others? I've been following what you've said, and you keep repeating that these words have a dreadful history behind them. Yes, I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that or they wouldn't find it so funny when Destiny said them. And I'm pretty certain Destiny has never used these words in a hateful way, but only to raise a discussion about the words in the exact same way we are - but I don't want to focus the argument on that because first off, I don't know that for sure, I haven't watched his stream every single minute, and secondly, I don't think it matters if he has because everyone knows he isn't racist, and everyone already says he is insensitive and immature - and personally I don't care if he is insensitive and immature. Throughout this entire discussion, people have been saying that if you say the work jokingly, or if you don't genuinely believe in the racist viewpoints they convey, that the words lose their racist meanings. This is untrue. The pejorative context of these words, even in joking, is exclusively derived from their hateful past. That is all that I have been saying this entire time. Can I just commend you for arguing so valiantly? You won this debate. Everyone else is backpedalling. I recommend you stop before they drive you bat-shit insane. (And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Kudos.) But...but he is just so wrong in nearly every single thing he says. AAAAAAAAAAH! IT BURNS US!
So what about the semantic change or amelioration(i could be wrong about this part due to fact that you wouldnt be truly elevating it if you still use it in a negative way but i figure making the meaning not racist as an elevation of the word) you seem to leave those out how come???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur
Nigger / Niger / nig / nigor / nigra / nigre (Caribbean) / nigar / niggor / niggur / nigga / niggah / niggar / nigguh / niggress / nigette
(International) An American-English slur originally used to refer to black-skinned people, but developed a dual meaning in the late 20th century.
I will agree that maybe not all the words are used today but there is still lots in that list that are used today. Even worse less people know what they mean and use them. Your right for the most part the word itself is meant to be racist. The fact that the context can change the words meaning overrules that. Also the gaming community or sports community are still classified as social groups so it is changing. Especially the more people that use it in that way. As you already pointed out and agreed with me thats how you change meanings of words.
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