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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On June 05 2011 16:40 Belha wrote: Is a very easy question: There could be many opinions about uninteresting mechanics, but the most OBVIOUS are all those cheap 1a units: marauders, roaches and collosi. Given how quickly burrowed roaches regenerate, I have to think there's a lot of untapped blink-esque micro potential | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Pwnographics
New Zealand1097 Posts
On June 05 2011 16:42 Daralii wrote: Given how quickly burrowed roaches regenerate, I have to think there's a lot of untapped blink-esque micro potential Given how long it takes for them to burrow and then unborrow I don't think it's very viable. | ||
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A.J.
United States209 Posts
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SergTom
United Kingdom9 Posts
Improving the warp prism is something i would like to see, or them adding a unit that we can do harassment with thats cheap and is not a massive loss if it dies. The last thing id like to note is that phoenix probably needs to be changed. I would rather it was cheaper and died faster so that i could actually use it more. I feel like this unit is really rubbish unless we mass lodes of them and even then it's not super effective. | ||
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Doc Daneeka
United States577 Posts
like how they mentioned the overseer - yeah it's an underwhelming unit, but it has uses. strategies can't hinge on changelings, but every once in awhile they gather some useful information without risking the loss of the overseer itself. contaminate can be really powerful zvz, and as far as i know mass contaminate hasn't really been seriously explored against the other races. i'd rather they add a spell, maybe as an upgrade so the player can choose to use it for that functionality or just for contaminate or even just for detection, but why remove it? it's a cool art asset and the more units that can morph, the more zergy zerg feels. or like the mothership - so it's "useless". what harm is it doing? just don't make one. it was a cool idea and it's better to leave something like that around so maybe someday in a few years some genius will make it viable, or blizzard will find a way to tweak it so it's more practical. on that note, it'd probably be best to concentrate on the carrier first since that will get people building fleet beacons and then the mothership will follow out of curiosity. it'd just be vastly better to redesign and rebalance units like that than to remove them. it seems hasty and reactionary and to me it would be blizzard pandering to their reputation for making competitive RTS games without taking into account the fact that all their previous vanilla releases have been far worse, and that it takes time for players to discover the full utility of the units in the game. as far as my own suggestions i'm not feeling very imaginative. only thing i'm sure i want is a speed upgrade for hydras. at tier 3 if that's what's necessary to keep it balanced but i don't want to be stuck turtling in my base forever because i chose to tech to a unit that is supposed to be a linchpin of the zerg army. either that or make nydus worms cheaper or something so they have more utility as fast transport and not just as a risky alternative to overlord drop. | ||
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DrGreen
Poland708 Posts
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IVN
534 Posts
On June 05 2011 18:41 Doc Daneeka wrote: i just really hope they don't flat out remove anything. relatively speaking, players haven't had enough time to write anything off for sure. i'd much rather they attempt to rebalance the numbers, add upgrades and spells, add a unit to change the unit interactions, something like that. like how they mentioned the overseer - yeah it's an underwhelming unit, but it has uses. strategies can't hinge on changelings, but every once in awhile they gather some useful information without risking the loss of the overseer itself. contaminate can be really powerful zvz, and as far as i know mass contaminate hasn't really been seriously explored against the other races. i'd rather they add a spell, maybe as an upgrade so the player can choose to use it for that functionality or just for contaminate or even just for detection, but why remove it? it's a cool art asset and the more units that can morph, the more zergy zerg feels. or like the mothership - so it's "useless". what harm is it doing? just don't make one. it was a cool idea and it's better to leave something like that around so maybe someday in a few years some genius will make it viable, or blizzard will find a way to tweak it so it's more practical. on that note, it'd probably be best to concentrate on the carrier first since that will get people building fleet beacons and then the mothership will follow out of curiosity. it'd just be vastly better to redesign and rebalance units like that than to remove them. it seems hasty and reactionary and to me it would be blizzard pandering to their reputation for making competitive RTS games without taking into account the fact that all their previous vanilla releases have been far worse, and that it takes time for players to discover the full utility of the units in the game. as far as my own suggestions i'm not feeling very imaginative. only thing i'm sure i want is a speed upgrade for hydras. at tier 3 if that's what's necessary to keep it balanced but i don't want to be stuck turtling in my base forever because i chose to tech to a unit that is supposed to be a linchpin of the zerg army. either that or make nydus worms cheaper or something so they have more utility as fast transport and not just as a risky alternative to overlord drop. Why do you want a speed upgrade for hydras? "What harm is it", if hydras remain slow like hell? I mean, Blizz took the perfectly useful arbiter and made a perfectly useless mothership out of that, and you are fine with that. Why not the hydra? My god, 1 unit is relatively fast, has good spells, is small and can be microed to a degree (arbiter). The other unit is big, slow, costly, unmicroable, has an absurd tech/build time. I really dont know what to say. And when you look at the 3 tech trees for protoss, it becomes obvious that in a similar way, everything BUT the robo tech has been fucked up. Templar: you now need 2 buildings, and the one for DTs ist costly like hell, and takes forever to be built. Archons are much, much weaker than in the previous game. In PvT HTs lose much of their utility thanks to the ultra cheap ghosts and EMP. The upgrades of the templar tech path were also fucked up...well, except blink. But just compare the utility of speedlots vs chargelots. Speedlots were almost as fast as speedlings, it was very hard for the zerg to surround and kill them. Thus, you could use them to harass the shit out of enemy expos and run out. And why was that possible? Because speedlots were much faster then workers and killed them really fast. 4 speedlots could wreck an entire mineral line even if the workers were pulled of. Chargelots are slower than workers and only land a hit every 10 sec (cooldown for charge), you also cant run them in and out of an expo, like you could do with speedlots. Once they engage, they are dead. Every fucking T1 unit in the game is faster than chargelots. (accounting for stim and speed upgrades) As I've said, blink is cool, and enables good micro, but since stalkers have very low DPS, they are not very good for harassing mineral lines/shutting down expos. Thats why you dont see much harassment from protoss in sc2. The core units are not good for harass. Its simple as that. | ||
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rewired
Canada630 Posts
1.Corruptor 2.Colossus 3.Marine(Mass Ball) Add/Change 1.Roach/Hydra position switch(?) with hydra doing less damage 2.L - U - R - K - E - R....(probably reduce damage since they destroy everything they touch now in unit tester) 3. Unit clumping(just seems kinda unnatural to me, if i was a marine i would not want some other marine walking so close behind me he's basically rubbing his junk on me.) 4.Reaver instead of Colossus because it is just a much more exciting unit. 5.Get rid of Raven/Infestor bring back Science vessel/Defiler All in all though SCII is a great game and is fun to play, I just personally hate the colosuss I sigh every time I see it whether watching a stream or playing against it. | ||
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Rks
Japan8 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
and stop units clumping to that degree oh and ultras up ramps = FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU | ||
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ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
Roach/Marauder are bad units in terms of interest--they are very bloated considering they're not Toss units--but, the thing is, they *have* to be like that. I understand that this thread is, in a sense, a glorified wishlist, but it would require such fundamental redesign of the game if those units were weakened that I seriously don't think it will happen. My suspicion is that Roach/Marauder are so beefy is because of how good banelings would be in those matchups(firebats at 50 HP would get rolled, and light armor hydras would die instantly). I think it requires more than I suspect Blizzard is willing to put in at the moment. That said, I would be greatly interested in seeing these three staple "1A" units all removed from the game or heavily, heavily reworked. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
Poll: Most uninteresting unit? Colossus (863) Roach (216) Corruptor (178) Marauder (79) Mothership (45) Overseer (40) Reaper (26) (25) Immortal (21) (18) Baneling (17) Medivac (8) 1536 total votes Your vote: Most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus Second most uninteresting unit poll + Show Spoiler + Poll: Second most uninteresting unit? Corruptor (344) Roach (118) Marauder (82) Colossus (61) Overseer (36) Mothership (27) Immortal (9) Reaper (9) Baneling (8) Medivac (4) 698 total votes Your vote: Second most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus Third most uninteresting unit poll + Show Spoiler + Poll: Third most uninteresting unit? Roach (239) Marauder (112) Overseer (65) Colossus (63) Corruptor (45) Mothership (29) Immortal (25) Reaper (17) Baneling (12) Medivac (2) 609 total votes Your vote: Third most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
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adwodon
United Kingdom592 Posts
Ill add my contribution though: Units Collosus: Unit needs to be either removed or adjusted to be much much slower. Like said, it just doesnt have the draw back of a siege unit, being vulnerable to air just means its too good at forcing heavy air, and their range and durability often means that even with a heavy air presence they still do a good amount of damage before being picked off. Sentry: FF should be changed, either removing it or if you have to have it then make it channeled, I like the idea of a support unit but I think it should have other spells to reflect this which work similar to guardian shield (buff) or perhaps some kind of debuff. Perhaps making an area 'ability stopping' so you cant stim in a certain area (and it would cancel if you've already stimmed perhaps) if the spell is cast there, this could also help against thors strike canon vs immortals, buying time for Protoss in a similar manner to FF but w/o doing so by removing any chance to micro. Mothership: Just remove it, no purpose for it. Marauder: I like the idea of it in principle but in practice it creates more problems than it solves. Im not entirely sure what could be done though, I dont think conc shell is as big a problem as people think, not like FF or FG, but I am Terran so I have bias there. Reaper: I love the idea of a great infantry harass unit but its gas cost makes it pretty useless in the mid / late game, as well as insane build times. Again not sure how to change it as I like it a lot, maybe increasing its mineral cost to 100 and giving it the ability to lay spider mines, that way you could always have a small squad of reapers out, controlling space and harassing where possible. I guess cliff jumping + spider mines could be a little much though. Raven: If spidermines on reapers is too much then ravens should be able to do it. Replacing auto turret perhaps, PDD is good, but HSM also needs a fix, its too situational to make a raven a sound investment in all but a few situations. Overseers: Id like to see the overseer take a more defensive spell caster role, at the moments theres no point in it besides changeling, instead I would like to see changeling as a 50/50 (or more) upgrade for the overlord and the overseer take on a more defensive role to help with pushes. Infestors: FG should be changed, I like its damage but its lock down ability makes it worse than storm. I like the role of the infestor as an offensive / harassment spell caster if the overseer is made defensive. Hydras: The roach kinda ate up part of its original role, I still think its good and with new styles involving more drop play and better creep spread I think people should be looking at it again, on its own I think its fine but what it should have is the ability to become a unit which is powerful and compliments the hydra (ala the lurker). Its main drawback is its speed, but if the zerg army had a unit which was powerful and relatively immobile then the speed wouldnt be as big an issue and it would see more use I think, maybe combined with a good defensive / offensive spell caster it would be really effective and become a favorite again. Mechanics Macro Mechanics: I think that all the macro mechanics need toning down somewhat, with an increase in game speed and these mechanics being so important they've made things too fast in my opinion. Zerg should use larva as a nice boost to their production, to delay a hatchery or otherwise, as such I think maybe larva production rates should increase as hatches get upgraded to lair / hive. I think that this would also promote getting more than one lair which would be good imo. Chronoboost is ok in my eyes, but would probably need to be adjusted if other things were changed. Mules, again I dont see a huge issue, they are incredibly limiting, only minerals and T has trouble late game in a lot of situation however I would instead like to see them toned down and given an ebay upgrade to be able to harvest gas (ebay up to stop 1 base being too powerful), I think this would help out T's late game, T generally has less bases so it would allow T to make more econ decisions and reduce a reliance on mineral heavy units like the marine which lose effectiveness in the late game. With a reduction in the potenency of macro mechanics they could be expanded to provide more economic choices for the player, meaning you wouldnt have to spend all your energy in injects if you instead got 2 lairs with 1 queen on inject and one to push creep. The ability to adjust your econ directly as T with mules for gas or minerals and Toss already has this with cb. Warp In: I like warp in as a defensive tool but it should be limited to within a relatively small area close to a nexus (ie in your base, and a small area around), either that or it should be much slower to produce than a standard gateway. That way you could build up, switch to warpgates, push out and if you think you can clinch it or need to put more pressure, or a key unit like a DT you can warp in, but otherwise you'd go back to gates, fall back and produce quicker. Giving it the best of both words makes it too obnoxious and makes protoss too hard to deal with if you find yourself on the losing end of a fight. Game Speed I dont think this has been mentioned but I think the default game speed is too fast, it should be decreased to fast as default, it makes battles too fast, slower speed would make fancy micro more possible and controlling multiple locations a bit easier which can only lend itself to better games. This wouldnt make the game easier, it would simply require you to do more. | ||
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Makomako
1 Post
Collosus This unit has several problems. First off it doesn't have any interesting features and promotes ball a-move type play. Secondly the balance of power of this unit doesn't make it fun for anyone. What I mean by that is, it's not fun to go up against Collosi because they are so powerful yet demand so little effort to use. For the same reason it isn't fun to use Collosi because you don't feel any satisfaction when you anihilate an army with them. And the vulnerability to anti air attacks is just a really annoying weakness that makes them even less fun to use. Collosi needs to be cut and replaced by a more interesting robo unit (like the reaver or better yet something entirely new). Marauder The Marauder single handedly transforms Terran from a race that is all about positioning into a ball a-move race. Furthermore the concussive shells take out a lot of potential micro from battles where they are involved. Marauders need to go or to be radically redesigned. Reaper These guys are either overpowered or obsolete. I really don't see how you could make them work no matter how you tweaked them. Right now it's a glorified scout and doesn't really deserve a spot in the game. Corruptor Simply a boring unit. Corruption is really meh and on top of that they are a low damage high hp unit with an extremely narrow niche. Just feels really dull even for an AtA unit. Warp prism Way too hard to get any mileage out of this unit. It takes up precious robo build time, costs twice as much as a pylon, is fragile, and on top of that Protoss don't have many units good for dropping. Either remove them or give them some really kick ass secondary ability to make them worth using (something like shield battery comes to mind). Roach While this unit should be interesting on paper what with all the burrow and regen, you simply have too many of them and they die too fast in large battles to allow for any cool burrow micro. Either remove them or turn them into a 4 food T2 unit with alot of hp and micro-bility. Mechanics: Warp in Move this to twilight council so we can get rid of 4gate once and for all and buff gateway units to be on par with the other races T1. Early warp in is the source of so many problems in this game. It forces the whole Protoss race to center their play around Forcefields and Collosus since the gateway units due to warp in need to be so weak. Force fields and fungal growth While they are cool and require skill to use properly I think most people would agree that they take away more from the game than they give. Units and abilities that prevent micro should be very rare. A solution could be to make fungal only slow units by say 50% and making forcefields a channeled ability. Mules They are just a 100% uninteresting waste of space and they come with their own problems like giving terrans a supply advantage in late game. Remove it and add another more interesting macro mechanic for terran. | ||
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thebole1
Serbia126 Posts
wc3 spirit link reduce dps taken on one target to shere with others targets... that spell can be add insted of force fealds ... becous toss unites will be more alive and that would add AGEAN MICRO intensive bettles... SPIRIT LINK WC3 SPELL ..they can change name ofc but simply try to find if you dont know i think that speel would help insted of FORCE FEALDS.... gateway unites are 2 week.. so without force fealds they are easy killed but SPIRIT LINK speel would help toss unites to stay alive.... ppl i hope you understend what i am seying that would be great simply more micro intensive game will be in it  | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
And in PvT, w/o FFs, you would be kited forever, and would never get to deal any damage. In PvT you have to trap T units with FFs, so you can catch onto them and kill them. With the current speed of toss units, you could not survive w/o FFs. Its as simple as that. | ||
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Drygioni
Japan379 Posts
On June 05 2011 21:41 sluggaslamoo wrote: Probably should have been done ages ago Poll: Most uninteresting unit? Colossus (863) Roach (216) Corruptor (178) Marauder (79) Mothership (45) Overseer (40) Reaper (26) (25) Immortal (21) (18) Baneling (17) Medivac (8) 1536 total votes Your vote: Most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus Second most uninteresting unit poll + Show Spoiler + Poll: Second most uninteresting unit? Corruptor (344) Roach (118) Marauder (82) Colossus (61) Overseer (36) Mothership (27) Immortal (9) Reaper (9) Baneling (8) Medivac (4) 698 total votes Your vote: Second most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus Third most uninteresting unit poll + Show Spoiler + Poll: Third most uninteresting unit? Roach (239) Marauder (112) Overseer (65) Colossus (63) Corruptor (45) Mothership (29) Immortal (25) Reaper (17) Baneling (12) Medivac (2) 609 total votes Your vote: Third most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus Now I know everyone hates the colossus but really, how is that more lame than the corrupter? | ||
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TUski
United States1258 Posts
On June 07 2011 17:51 Drygioni wrote: Now I know everyone hates the colossus but really, how is that more lame than the corrupter? Because corruptor-> gglords, and for the time they are on the battlefield before the greater spire pops, their only function is to counter colossi.. Colossi have no follow-up. | ||
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