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On June 01 2011 04:16 sAfuRos wrote:
Actually removing units will be stupid as fuck. I'm not going to play a game that is completely revamped because derp a lerp
If you remove the colossus Protoss either changes completely or you find some way to replace the colossus singularly, which essentially is impossible unless its colossus 2.0
Agreed, if it is a big concern, it would make more sense to just give terran and zerg a different unit that can deal with colossi other than viking/corrupter.
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On June 01 2011 04:27 SpecFire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 04:23 pred470r wrote:On June 01 2011 04:06 Islandsnake wrote:
Just got done watching the 1 hour video, its really good and gives a better feel for there attitude on the game imo. I recommended giving it a watch while you browse! Where is this 1h video? Asking, because I don't see anything in the OP. AGREED? WHERE IS THE 1 HOUR VIDEO?
Here's the Full Interview Video
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On June 01 2011 04:16 sAfuRos wrote:
No offense Jinro, but i think you're just unhappy in lieu of your poor performance lately
Actually removing units will be stupid as fuck. I'm not going to play a game that is completely revamped because derp a lerp
If you remove the colossus Protoss either changes completely or you find some way to replace the colossus singularly, which essentially is impossible unless its colossus 2.0
Yeah Protoss matches will be less boring, "changing completely". I'm totally okay with that.
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On June 01 2011 03:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:42 zawk9 wrote:On June 01 2011 03:36 vol_ wrote:We're going to add some new multiplayer units, and take out some multiplayer units Bye collosus? If only it were true... There is no way to make the game better than to remove that god damn unit - not even balance reasons, its just STUPID. "Oh you had enough vikings and I got RAPED" "Oh you didnt have enough vikings, I lost 0 units"
I respectfully disagree with this. It a a bit too much of a coinflip but at the same time Colossii have always seemed like glorified siege tanks. Except they can constantly move and do horizontal AOE damage instead of clustering around an impact point. Maybe if they made colossus move slower or just generally rebalanced the unit...
You know what, I've changed my mind. Just remove the whole mess.
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On June 01 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 04:16 sAfuRos wrote:
Actually removing units will be stupid as fuck. I'm not going to play a game that is completely revamped because derp a lerp
If you remove the colossus Protoss either changes completely or you find some way to replace the colossus singularly, which essentially is impossible unless its colossus 2.0 Agreed, if it is a big concern, it would make more sense to just give terran and zerg a different unit that can deal with colossi other than viking/corrupter.
That sounds way to much like just trying to hide the flaw instead of fixing it. The unit is obviously flawed if both T and Z needs a new unit with a role that heavily involves dealings with said unit? Just look at the Corrupter.. -.-
We don't want more of this X counter Y counters Z crap.
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Im impressed to no details about price...
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thanks for the nice post.
after seeing this, the image of kerrigan is forever ruined in my mind.
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United States7166 Posts
On June 01 2011 03:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:42 zawk9 wrote:On June 01 2011 03:36 vol_ wrote:We're going to add some new multiplayer units, and take out some multiplayer units Bye collosus? If only it were true... There is no way to make the game better than to remove that god damn unit - not even balance reasons, its just STUPID. "Oh you had enough vikings and I got RAPED" "Oh you didnt have enough vikings, I lost 0 units"
Totally agree. They specifically pointed out the lesser-used units as the units they're thinking about replacing/reworking, and made no indication of looking to change units that are being heavily used like the colossus. I'm sure they've aware of the gameplay problems surrounding the colossus but they're too afraid to replace/redesign a unit that's become a staple in games.. they don't want to rebalance the game all over again, especially with how scary and stressful the balance process is for them.
But of course replacing/changing units that aren't being used much is a much easier way to add the new multiplayer elements to the expansion so it looks like they're going to go that route.
In other words, be prepared for a lot more just-the-right-#-of-vikings shenanigans.
Honestly I think the best way to deal with the colossus problem, is to give the players at least somewhat of a chance at beating them with ground units provided you've really sick micro. Similar to how in BW, when players controlled/positioned their marines really well, they could deal with lurkers with just marines. Or how hydras could be moved out of psi storm, or be spread/split vs reavers.
The hard part though would be figuring out a way to let this happen..the current colossus dual-laser that rapes everything in a perpendicular line completely eliminates all possible dodging scenarios. Honestly I'm unable to figure out a solution except to completely change it to a line attack similar to hellions or lurkers, and to make the laser actually take time to travel and do damage rather than an instant column of flame like hellions. Of course then the colossus would be a lot less effective even if the opponent doesnt micro at all, so they'd have to buff the laser appropriately. In essence it would be a more powerful, extremely mobile lurker with 9 range. It's not a great idea but I can't really come up with others to achieve what the desired effect.
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On June 01 2011 04:02 Sentient wrote:
Great writeup, thanks TL!
But I'd like to have a stern word with Blizzard: Char is not the Zerg homeworld. Have you forgotten your own lore?!
I'm pretty sure they forgot about it around when they came up with Dark Voice fella.
Starcraft doesn't need Sauron!
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On June 01 2011 04:37 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 01 2011 03:42 zawk9 wrote:On June 01 2011 03:36 vol_ wrote:We're going to add some new multiplayer units, and take out some multiplayer units Bye collosus? If only it were true... There is no way to make the game better than to remove that god damn unit - not even balance reasons, its just STUPID. "Oh you had enough vikings and I got RAPED" "Oh you didnt have enough vikings, I lost 0 units" Totally agree. They specifically pointed out the lesser-used units as the units they're thinking about replacing/reworking, and made no indication of looking to change units that are being heavily used like the colossus. I'm sure they've aware of the gameplay problems surrounding the colossus but they're too afraid to replace/redesign a unit that's become a staple in games.. they don't want to rebalance the game all over again, especially with how scary and stressful the balance process is for them. But of course replacing/changing units that aren't being used much is a much easier way to add the new multiplayer elements to the expansion so it looks like they're going to go that route. In other words, be prepared for a lot more just-the-right-#-of-vikings shenanigans. Honestly I think the best way to deal with the colossus problem, is to give the players at least somewhat of a chance at beating them with ground units provided you've really sick micro. Similar to how in BW, when players controlled/positioned their marines really well, they could deal with lurkers with just marines. Or how hydras could be moved out of psi storm, or be spread/split vs reavers. The hard part though would be figuring out a way to let this happen..the current colossus dual-laser that rapes everything in a perpendicular line completely eliminates all possible dodging scenarios. Honestly I'm unable to figure out a solution except to completely change it to a line attack similar to hellions or lurkers, and to make the laser actually take time to move and do damage rather than an instant column of flame like hellions. Of course then the colossus would be a lot less effective even if the opponent doesnt micro at all, so they'd have to buff the laser appropriately.
The problem is, no matter what micro would allow to kill Colossus, Forcefield would prevent you to do it.
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On June 01 2011 04:26 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 04:07 Achaia wrote:On June 01 2011 03:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 01 2011 03:42 zawk9 wrote:On June 01 2011 03:36 vol_ wrote:We're going to add some new multiplayer units, and take out some multiplayer units Bye collosus? If only it were true... There is no way to make the game better than to remove that god damn unit - not even balance reasons, its just STUPID. "Oh you had enough vikings and I got RAPED" "Oh you didnt have enough vikings, I lost 0 units" Bahaha I love Jinro! Seriously though, I would be very OK with Colossus going away. For Zerg, I'm hoping and praying and hoping that they bring back the Lurker! :D i haven,t played sc1. i have googled and seen the lurker. Now can you or anyone tell me why Lurker is so popular amongst sc players? in every thread about what units should be in the game there is always someone saying Lurker.
It's possibly one of the most interesting units SC units period. It was so interesting because it was a unit that required a LOT of micro and had a big risk/pay-off ratio. Good lurker micro could get you endless kills almost, while bad lurker micro can literally lose you the game. This is because you have to burrow the unit, i.e. while unburrowed it's a waste but while burrowed it CAN be amazing.
In terms of spectating it was extremely exciting to watch. Watching a huge flank of lurkers come from the side/behind the army was so awesome because you know that while they are walking they are useless and the other race has time to make some micro miracle, but once they burrow and they get in a good position they can wreck deathballs. Even AFTER they were burrowed, the other race can micro to get out of it. Clumping the lurkers up in a ball would result in storm effing them all over. Spreading them too far apart wouldn't get the attacks off. Combine dark swarm with lurkers and oh man was that amazing. It was just such a dynamic unit.
Now that's just the offensive side of lurkers which was very exciting, however their real main purpose was defence. Lurker fields against toss with scourge picking off the observers was a HUGE micro battle. Stop lurkers was like burrowed banelings, which stalled terran pushes because terran would have to burn out scans to get to the zergs base and all zerg would have to do is burrow, wait for siege, unburrow, move back a bit. That forced terrans to move out with a vessel so they aren't fully reliant on scans which run out fairly fast. There are just so many great things about the lurker and it added so much to starcraft.
Probably my favorite unit, apart from the siege tank.
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It makes sense to say arrange your units to be as vertical as possible when fighting a colossus until you actually play a game and realize you'll never find a colossus alone.
Who knows though lets hope they maybe buff corruptors and viking damage vs massive units.
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On June 01 2011 04:37 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 01 2011 03:42 zawk9 wrote:On June 01 2011 03:36 vol_ wrote:We're going to add some new multiplayer units, and take out some multiplayer units Bye collosus? If only it were true... There is no way to make the game better than to remove that god damn unit - not even balance reasons, its just STUPID. "Oh you had enough vikings and I got RAPED" "Oh you didnt have enough vikings, I lost 0 units" Totally agree. They specifically pointed out the lesser-used units as the units they're thinking about replacing/reworking, and made no indication of looking to change units that are being heavily used like the colossus. I'm sure they've aware of the gameplay problems surrounding the colossus but they're too afraid to replace/redesign a unit that's become a staple in games.. they don't want to rebalance the game all over again, especially with how scary and stressful the balance process is for them. But of course replacing/changing units that aren't being used much is a much easier way to add the new multiplayer elements to the expansion so it looks like they're going to go that route. In other words, be prepared for a lot more just-the-right-#-of-vikings shenanigans. Honestly I think the best way to deal with the colossus problem, is to give the players at least somewhat of a chance at beating them with ground units provided you've really sick micro. Similar to how in BW, when players controlled/positioned their marines really well, they could deal with lurkers with just marines. Or how hydras could be moved out of psi storm, or be spread/split vs reavers. The hard part though would be figuring out a way to let this happen..the current colossus dual-laser that rapes everything in a perpendicular line completely eliminates all possible dodging scenarios. Honestly I'm unable to figure out a solution except to completely change it to a line attack similar to hellions or lurkers, and to make the laser actually take time to move and do damage rather than an instant column of flame like hellions. Of course then the colossus would be a lot less effective even if the opponent doesnt micro at all, so they'd have to buff the laser appropriately.
That is a possible solution, but It might be easier just letting the unit go.
Haven't they said that ''The Colossus only came to be just because they thought the alien vehicles in War of the Worlds and they wanted to add such a ''cool unit''. =/''
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On June 01 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:
Agreed, if it is a big concern, it would make more sense to just give terran and zerg a different unit that can deal with colossi other than viking/corrupter.
Balance isn't the only consideration you know. There's also how exciting the game is to play and to watch, and on that front the colossus fails miserably compared to the reaver. It always will, no matter how perfectly balanced SC2 is.
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On June 01 2011 04:37 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 03:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 01 2011 03:42 zawk9 wrote:On June 01 2011 03:36 vol_ wrote:We're going to add some new multiplayer units, and take out some multiplayer units Bye collosus? If only it were true... There is no way to make the game better than to remove that god damn unit - not even balance reasons, its just STUPID. "Oh you had enough vikings and I got RAPED" "Oh you didnt have enough vikings, I lost 0 units" Totally agree. They specifically pointed out the lesser-used units as the units they're thinking about replacing/reworking, and made no indication of looking to change units that are being heavily used like the colossus. I'm sure they've aware of the gameplay problems surrounding the colossus but they're too afraid to replace/redesign a unit that's become a staple in games.. they don't want to rebalance the game all over again, especially with how scary and stressful the balance process is for them. But of course replacing/changing units that aren't being used much is a much easier way to add the new multiplayer elements to the expansion so it looks like they're going to go that route. In other words, be prepared for a lot more just-the-right-#-of-vikings shenanigans. Honestly I think the best way to deal with the colossus problem, is to give the players at least somewhat of a chance at beating them with ground units provided you've really sick micro. Similar to how in BW, when players controlled/positioned their marines really well, they could deal with lurkers with just marines. Or how hydras could be moved out of psi storm, or be spread/split vs reavers. The hard part though would be figuring out a way to let this happen..the current colossus dual-laser that rapes everything in a perpendicular line completely eliminates all possible dodging scenarios. Honestly I'm unable to figure out a solution except to completely change it to a line attack similar to hellions or lurkers, and to make the laser actually take time to travel and do damage rather than an instant column of flame like hellions. Of course then the colossus would be a lot less effective even if the opponent doesnt micro at all, so they'd have to buff the laser appropriately. In essence it would be a more powerful, extremely mobile lurker with 9 range. It's not a great idea but I can't really come up with others to achieve what the desired effect.
In terms of micro, I try to stagger my units occasionally. Throw a couple of units ahead in the battle so they take the huge burst of the damage and the other guys don't get splashed. However this is so easily countered as all toss has to do is use forcefields to line all of my shit up, then select their 4 or w.e collosus and choose what line has the most units and they all incinerate.
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From single player preview to colossus needs to be removed... wow.
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From the point of view of someone who didn't watch competitive bw the reaver wasn't as exciting as the collosus. It was fun but it required way more skill to use than a colossus. Maybe thats why it is hated ><
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On June 01 2011 03:08 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 02:53 TheDougler wrote:On June 01 2011 02:50 BlasiuS wrote:
The mineral cost should be high enough to discourage massing them in the early-game or mid-game. For example, imagine if the cost of the overseer was 400/0, or 400/25. Would you see more of them late-game? Absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure this thought process goes through every zerg player's head: Hmm, I could expand right now, but what I really wish for is a flying doofus who can detect and goop things... Just saying... Even if that number was like 200/25 we wouldn't see more overseers. Because when do you REALLY need them? Only for detection really. Oh no DT expand! OH NO HE MADE ENOUGH DTs TO ONE SHOT SPORES! I know! I'll make a oversee... crap. Good thing the game balancers aren't so rash. Why did Kerrigan glow orange? Good question. I'm going to assume or pretend or whatever that its related to spending years and years inside organic materials and flying around in a leviathan. You guys know how in the beginning, the overmind captured new species and infested them into the swarm? Zerglings were akin to dogs and Guardians were giant friendly space manta rays? What the hell happened to that idea? Everythings a mutation of something prior now  Or even a genetic experiment. Sorry, I forgot none of that matters now that the Dark Voice is behind everything.
Yeah I always liked that idea. The first thing I thought when I saw the furry snow beasts was "Ooh! New Zerg unit incoming, hopefully"
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cant wait! unlike many others I liked the WOL singleplayer, so looking forward to it.
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EPT
