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Carriers get completely and utterly destroyed by both Corruptors and Vikings. That's the main reason they aren't being used - they take a year and a half to tech to and then the other races have easily available very hard counters to them.
yes but my point is if terran go mech seige tanks and hellions and other staf... cerriers are extrimly usfull.... but if you go MMM + wiking + ghoust... its not that big deal to made plenty of wikings after MMM but after mech you will have troble to build em...
cerriers are suprise unites that if you mass them you will own your oponent so hard.. 
so untill HOTS mech gameplay we will not see to meny carriers (or if they nerf stim pack and buff seige tanks dps from 50 to 60 vs armored) and mech become more usfull...then carriers will be usfull agean...
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I actually found stargate openings with the void ray rush actually counters mass thors hardcore.. Like seriously blizzard never took for account on stargate openings and just looked at robo tech... Very disappointing..
As for the bunker nerf lol I guess the community as long as they keep up the qq blizzard will do so. I agree 100% salvage is kinda stupid but seriously the bunker build time is really pissing me off 40 seconds is not enough time to throw down bunkers in case of an all in as a reactionary tool.. It feels like terran defensive mechanics are actually worse than protoss FF and the new spanishwa hype of spine/queen. I always lose because my bunker is 3-2 seconds between completion and the scv gets sniped.. Someone needs to speak for terrans for exchange...
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Canons take 40s
Spines take 50s
why should bunkers be faster as a reactionary defense tool?
especially since they are salvagable they should take actually more time imho.
so you have to build them cautiously and not spam them.
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On May 18 2011 03:46 thebole1 wrote:Show nested quote +Carriers get completely and utterly destroyed by both Corruptors and Vikings. That's the main reason they aren't being used - they take a year and a half to tech to and then the other races have easily available very hard counters to them. yes but my point is if terran go mech seige tanks and hellions and other staf... cerriers are extrimly usfull.... but if you go MMM + wiking + ghoust... its not that big deal to made plenty of wikings after MMM but after mech you will have troble to build em... cerriers are suprise unites that if you mass them you will own your oponent so hard.. so untill HOTS mech gameplay we will not see to meny carriers (or if they nerf stim pack and buff seige tanks dps from 50 to 60 vs armored) and mech become more usfull...then carriers will be usfull agean...
Carriers are not surprise units. Do adequate scouting and realize that while he's massing up Carriers (which take forever to build), his army isn't as big. Combine that with proper scouting/scanning and poof you are easily prepared to hold off Carriers with a lot of Vikings.
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Watch ogsHero vs ST_Squirtle from GSTL if you want to see a sick patch 1.3.3 style PvP match!
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On May 18 2011 04:43 freetgy wrote:
Canons take 40s
Spines take 50s
why should bunkers be faster as a reactionary defense tool?
especially since they are salvagable they should take actually more time imho.
so you have to build them cautiously and not spam them.
Yes, it's a problem with all static defense, not just Bunkers. Needing to build static defense as a precaution instead of as a reaction takes away a lot of tension and excitement from the game.
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On May 18 2011 03:46 thebole1 wrote:cerriers are suprise unites that if you mass them you will own your oponent so hard.. so untill HOTS mech gameplay we will not see to meny carriers (or if they nerf stim pack and buff seige tanks dps from 50 to 60 vs armored) and mech become more usfull...then carriers will be usfull agean...
your repeated errors in spelling lead me to believe that these aren't typos, but you seriously don't know how to spell. it's "many" not "meny". "useful" not "usfull". I before E except after C.
on a relevant note, no one builds carriers because the tech path is too grueling, leaving you with a bunch of gateway units for the majority of the game. if the terran pokes at your door even once you'll flop over faster than a street hooker at the sight of a 100 dollar bill. unless you're playing Sim City 2 NR 40 minutes with your opponents, "massing" carriers is as viable as brushing your teeth with rocks. + Show Spoiler +which is not viable at all, in case you planned on trying it
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We want the Thor to be the type of unit that you add to your main army, and we definitely don’t want them to be the core of your army to the point where you strive to build as many as possible.
I'd like to ask Blizzard why Terran Pplayers should add the Thor t an Army if he has no function anymore but killing stacked mutas. There is no way you can add a Thor to an army as a support unit. Its 6 Supply each walking slower than anyrthing else so it can absorb the damage when you push.
it is actually not that bad, the nerf just makes it so you need ghosts to support your thors tvp
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On May 18 2011 04:51 Drazzyo wrote:
We want the Thor to be the type of unit that you add to your main army, and we definitely don’t want them to be the core of your army to the point where you strive to build as many as possible.
I'd like to ask Blizzard why Terran Pplayers should add the Thor t an Army if he has no function anymore but killing stacked mutas. There is no way you can add a Thor to an army as a support unit. Its 6 Supply each walking slower than anyrthing else so it can absorb the damage when you push.
it is actually not that bad, the nerf just makes it so you need ghosts to support your thors tvp
The patch change just made Thors a shitty strategy in general, especially compared to bio. The Ghost change made bio significantly more effective now that Ghosts are noticeably cheaper (and yes, 50 gas is a noticeable difference).
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On May 18 2011 04:51 displaced wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 03:46 thebole1 wrote:cerriers are suprise unites that if you mass them you will own your oponent so hard.. so untill HOTS mech gameplay we will not see to meny carriers (or if they nerf stim pack and buff seige tanks dps from 50 to 60 vs armored) and mech become more usfull...then carriers will be usfull agean... your repeated errors in spelling lead me to believe that these aren't typos, but you seriously don't know how to spell. it's "many" not "meny". "useful" not "usfull". I before E except after C. on a relevant note, no one builds carriers because the tech path is too grueling, leaving you with a bunch of gateway units for the majority of the game. if the terran pokes at your door even once you'll flop over faster than a street hooker at the sight of a 100 dollar bill. unless you're playing Sim City 2 NR 40 minutes with your opponents, "massing" carriers is as viable as brushing your teeth with rocks. + Show Spoiler +which is not viable at all, in case you planned on trying it
Really? The guy's from Serbia and you're going to bitch about his English?
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On May 18 2011 04:56 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Really? The guy's from Serbia and you're going to bitch about his English?
Hey, now he knows how to spell two more words and learned a general rule of spelling that most Americans still grapple with. It isn't so much bitching as it is reaching out and helping someone out. I can't say the same for you though, you're sitting here bitching about my post.
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On May 18 2011 03:46 thebole1 wrote:Show nested quote +Carriers get completely and utterly destroyed by both Corruptors and Vikings. That's the main reason they aren't being used - they take a year and a half to tech to and then the other races have easily available very hard counters to them. yes but my point is if terran go mech seige tanks and hellions and other staf... cerriers are extrimly usfull.... but if you go MMM + wiking + ghoust... its not that big deal to made plenty of wikings after MMM but after mech you will have troble to build em... cerriers are suprise unites that if you mass them you will own your oponent so hard.. so untill HOTS mech gameplay we will not see to meny carriers (or if they nerf stim pack and buff seige tanks dps from 50 to 60 vs armored) and mech become more usfull...then carriers will be usfull agean...
if you're going to mass something in secret, it might as well be colossi. if the terran player has no vikings colossi will do just as well as carriers would have, and its much quicker to make a colossus (75s) than a carrier (120s). colossi also benefit from ground upgrades and come from a robotics which is a much more common building to have pvt than a stargate.
that said, if your opponent is letting you sneakily mass a bunch of tier 3 units without scouting or attacking, you probably would win with anything you made. it would be incredibly careless to allow someone to build multiple stargates and a fleet beacon and multiple units that take 120 seconds to build without noticing.
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Honestly, I can't think of a situation where massing void rays doesn't do as good if not better than mass carriers. You can get them so much sooner, and you don't have to sacrifice as much to tech to get them. They handle vikings and corrupters much more easily, and they are solid at killing armored units (terran mech, ultralisks). Honestly the only situation I can see carriers being better is vs. mass lings or something like that, but then air in general is a mistake when you could have gone for colossi.
Anyone else feel this way?
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Really? The guy's from Serbia and you're going to bitch about his English?
THX for suport ..
if you whatch early SC2 games where terran goes mech.. gameplay you will see some games where huk pull out plenty of carriers and win games... i dont see eny problem with carriers right now at WOL where blizzard made on purpes gameplay with Terran go BIO insted of MECH...
i am sure of this every time terran go mech toss will pull out carriers and win or be close to win...
if you whatch BW games you will se if terran go plenty of seige tanks and toss then trow army and swich to carriers and win game...
to me and that is my opinion for WOL carriers simply dont have that much use becous of intended gameplay of MMM terrans ... but when HOTS come they will probubly force mech play in game and then unites (gameplay) will be from T1 to T2 to T3....or if blizzard buff mech and nerf bio in some new patchs....
i am toss player so i like carriers a lot but simply they BLIZZARD LIMITED gameplay in WOL becous its only 3rd part of true game that is how i see it....
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On May 18 2011 04:51 displaced wrote:
I before E except after C.
There are more exceptions to the rule than those that abide by it.
Fyi.
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On May 18 2011 07:04 Kerotan wrote:There are more exceptions to the rule than those that abide by it. Fyi.
I before E except after C...
Or sounding like ay like neighbor or weigh...
or if it's weird...
On topic, I don't entirely understand why they feel that reverting back to the the energy model was the only way to balance mass-thor + strike cannons vs P. I agree that the model was not working the way they wanted it to, but now instead of 1 strike cannon every 45 seconds, ready the moment the thor pops out of the factory, you have... 1 strike cannon every 300? seconds, ready 200? seconds after the unit pops out of the factory (could be slightly off on energy regen per sec, but not far.)
And they're SUPER vulnerable to feedback now. If they HAD to use an energy model, what about taking a page out of the nexus - 100 max energy instead of 200, with it being 75 or 100 energy to use strike cannons? I just feel like it's already been determined that strike cannon never gets used under this 150 energy model. Couple with the fact that immortals are the picture perfect example of what unit to use strike cannons on (anything less beefy isn't worth the time, they die faster to standard thor fire than the "charge-up time" of strike cannon takes), colossus die to thors without it, and ultralisks are un-stunnable.
Also, if thors are supposed to be support units, why do they act like a core unit? (meaty, good damage, good range, shoots air too)
rather than a support unit (really good in one or two of these things but lacking in others)
Now Protoss has a HARD Thor-counter in all 3 tech trees. High Templar, Void Ray, and Immortal. In one change they added not one but two counters :\ Immortal + Void ray would have been enough, but HT too? Feels like a bit much to take away from thors.
I think I like the ghost change, at least. Love seeing thorzain use his ghosts, and this plays directly into that. On the other hand, it's extremely thematically weird to me for a spellcaster to cost more minerals than gas. 150/150 for what at first glance appears to be "the weakest" of the 3 ground-based casters (HT, Ghost, Infestor) felt like a lot already.
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On May 18 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:04 Kerotan wrote:On May 18 2011 04:51 displaced wrote:
I before E except after C.
There are more exceptions to the rule than those that abide by it. Fyi. Now Protoss has a HARD Thor-counter in all 3 tech trees. High Templar, Void Ray, and Immortal. In one change they added not one but two counters :\ Immortal + Void ray would have been enough, but HT too? Feels like a bit much to take away from thors.
None of those are hardcounters. You cannot just blindly make HT whenever you see a Thor. Sure you can FB them, but you need another unit to deal the damage. Using HT against Thors require micro and other units ... so is it a counter? Yes, but not a hardcounter.
Immortals are the same thing. If you have strike cannon, you can destroy the immortals. Immortals do not hardcounter Thors unless you don't research strike cannon.
Void Rays do not do well against thors in large numbers. So they're not a hardcounter to Thors either.
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On May 18 2011 08:05 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:On May 18 2011 07:04 Kerotan wrote:On May 18 2011 04:51 displaced wrote:
I before E except after C.
There are more exceptions to the rule than those that abide by it. Fyi. Now Protoss has a HARD Thor-counter in all 3 tech trees. High Templar, Void Ray, and Immortal. In one change they added not one but two counters :\ Immortal + Void ray would have been enough, but HT too? Feels like a bit much to take away from thors. None of those are hardcounters. You cannot just blindly make HT whenever you see a Thor. Sure you can FB them, but you need another unit to deal the damage. Using HT against Thors require micro and other units ... so is it a counter? Yes, but not a hardcounter. Immortals are the same thing. If you have strike cannon, you can destroy the immortals. Immortals do not hardcounter Thors unless you don't research strike cannon.
Void Rays do not do well against thors in large numbers. So they're not a hardcounter to Thors either.
Void Rays destroy Thors in large numbers. Don't know what game you're playing...
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On May 18 2011 08:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Void Rays destroy Thors in large numbers. Don't know what game you're playing...
in theory yes,
pratical no,
guess someone needs to watch artosis gsl qualifier matches 
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On May 18 2011 08:05 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:On May 18 2011 07:04 Kerotan wrote:On May 18 2011 04:51 displaced wrote:
I before E except after C.
There are more exceptions to the rule than those that abide by it. Fyi. Now Protoss has a HARD Thor-counter in all 3 tech trees. High Templar, Void Ray, and Immortal. In one change they added not one but two counters :\ Immortal + Void ray would have been enough, but HT too? Feels like a bit much to take away from thors. None of those are hardcounters. You cannot just blindly make HT whenever you see a Thor. Sure you can FB them, but you need another unit to deal the damage. Using HT against Thors require micro and other units ... so is it a counter? Yes, but not a hardcounter. Immortals are the same thing. If you have strike cannon, you can destroy the immortals. Immortals do not hardcounter Thors unless you don't research strike cannon. Void Rays do not do well against thors in large numbers. So they're not a hardcounter to Thors either.
Yes, but they just nerfed the shit out of strike cannons. Now you will never have anywhere near enough strike cannons ready to take out immortals, unless he lets you sit on your mass thor for a long time. That's fine, immortals should be more viable vs thor than they were pre-patch.
It feels right now in late game PVT you can make HT's blindly vs whatever. They work well against pretty much all builds now, and with good control, can keep a handle on ghosts.
Of course you need something BESIDES high templar. Nobody ever made an army of pure high templar (except in Day9 Monobattles...) and nobody ever will expect it to work.
Void rays ANNIHILATE thors in large numbers. Even with worse upgrades, the most basic magic boxing of void rays is much easier than it ever was doing it with mutas, because of void rays' lower speed and larger collision size. Even if you don't focus fire and the thors do, void rays come out WAY on top, and are less expensive + faster to build. Not only that, but they're a pretty reasonable thing to build against a meching style. Vikings are scary but void rays vs vikings but VRs don't exactly auto-lose, but that's neither here nor there.
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EPT
