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On May 07 2011 04:24 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 06:44 Shiladie wrote:
since that argument I've lost some faith in day9, he failed to bring up any valid argument points, or lacking being able to do so admit to current observations.
I enjoy him as a caster and as an entertainer, but from this and other recent observations, I'm beginning to see what other pros have said about him having lost his edge in top end game analysis. My feeling about that discussion was that he was trying to make a distinction between imbalance and other types of design issues that was so subtle that everyone, including IdrA, missed it. His argument was: having to make a coin-flip decision at the start of the game doesn't mean playing Zerg puts you at a long-term disadvantage in terms of likelihood of winning, it just takes the control out of your hands to some extent for any given game. IdrA hates this because he wants to be in control of the game from start to end. Day9's view is "What you want is not the game they designed, and you might be able to find a way around it given enough time and creativity, so what's the problem?" It's the same kind of thing as his "no such thing as a counter" argument, which everyone misinterprets -- his point is simply that you can win the game with a suboptimal unit composition, not that there isn't an optimal composition available. In each case, Day9's position is that it's useful to think of the game his way because it leaves you more free to explore possibilities that you might have ruled out prematurely, and I think that's at the core of how he analyzes the game. Show nested quote +It's not a fault of his beyond that he doesn't play at the pro level anymore, if he were to get back into playing, I think he'd be able to bring more to the table in relation to this. He tweeted yesterday that he'll be free to play a LOT more starting June 1, and it will be interesting to see whether and how this affects his view of the game.
I created an account because I have been lurking for quite a while and while reading this thread I was thinking EXACTLY this. Day[9] looks at the whole picture and is taking more things into account. Think of it this way, If Protoss decides to all in probe rush you, guess what, they took away all control that you had in making any strategic choices. You have to defend in whatever way you can. There is no scouting that. Does that mean that this particular strategy makes the entire game out of balance... no.
In regards to Day[9] not wanting to talk balance, this is also false. He stated that he did not want to talk balance in an emotionally driven, short conversation. Day[9] realizes that, just like the devs, balance discussions require an immense amount of time and FACTS in order to be productive, otherwise they are just unproductive QQ.
Skill =/= Understanding of the game and the same is true the other way around. Phil Jackson knows more about the game of basketball than Kobe Bryant but I am going to venture the guess that 1 on 1 Kobe destroys him even when both were in their prime. Basketball has changed a lot since Phil was playing but through his observing of the game he knows more about how it works. I would bet that any of the top 20 players would DESTROY the developers in a game of Starcraft but I would beg anyone to tell me that the player knows more about SCII balance compared to the developer he just beat.
Fact is that IdrA found a way to win the IPL as zerg even though zerg had a harder time scouting. If he can win with this disadvantage, how would making zerg stronger be "balancing" the game. Spanishiwa is finding great success with his recent builds that rely on his SCOUTING. Scouting does not only mean being able to see exactly whats in his base, it means that you have the experience to recognize a pattern of play and gather information from it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 07 2011 05:30 Mellamojay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 04:24 Lysenko wrote:On May 06 2011 06:44 Shiladie wrote:
since that argument I've lost some faith in day9, he failed to bring up any valid argument points, or lacking being able to do so admit to current observations.
I enjoy him as a caster and as an entertainer, but from this and other recent observations, I'm beginning to see what other pros have said about him having lost his edge in top end game analysis. My feeling about that discussion was that he was trying to make a distinction between imbalance and other types of design issues that was so subtle that everyone, including IdrA, missed it. His argument was: having to make a coin-flip decision at the start of the game doesn't mean playing Zerg puts you at a long-term disadvantage in terms of likelihood of winning, it just takes the control out of your hands to some extent for any given game. IdrA hates this because he wants to be in control of the game from start to end. Day9's view is "What you want is not the game they designed, and you might be able to find a way around it given enough time and creativity, so what's the problem?" It's the same kind of thing as his "no such thing as a counter" argument, which everyone misinterprets -- his point is simply that you can win the game with a suboptimal unit composition, not that there isn't an optimal composition available. In each case, Day9's position is that it's useful to think of the game his way because it leaves you more free to explore possibilities that you might have ruled out prematurely, and I think that's at the core of how he analyzes the game. It's not a fault of his beyond that he doesn't play at the pro level anymore, if he were to get back into playing, I think he'd be able to bring more to the table in relation to this. He tweeted yesterday that he'll be free to play a LOT more starting June 1, and it will be interesting to see whether and how this affects his view of the game. I created an account because I have been lurking for quite a while and while reading this thread I was thinking EXACTLY this. Day[9] looks at the whole picture and is taking more things into account. Think of it this way, If Protoss decides to all in probe rush you, guess what, they took away all control that you had in making any strategic choices. You have to defend in whatever way you can. There is no scouting that. Does that mean that this particular strategy makes the entire game out of balance... no. In regards to Day[9] not wanting to talk balance, this is also false. He stated that he did not want to talk balance in an emotionally driven, short conversation. Day[9] realizes that, just like the devs, balance discussions require an immense amount of time and FACTS in order to be productive, otherwise they are just unproductive QQ. Skill =/= Understanding of the game and the same is true the other way around. Phil Jackson knows more about the game of basketball than Kobe Bryant but I am going to venture the guess that 1 on 1 Kobe destroys him even when both were in their prime. Basketball has changed a lot since Phil was playing but through his observing of the game he knows more about how it works. I would bet that any of the top 20 players would DESTROY the developers in a game of Starcraft but I would beg anyone to tell me that the player knows more about SCII balance compared to the developer he just beat. Fact is that IdrA found a way to win the IPL as zerg even though zerg had a harder time scouting. If he can win with this disadvantage, how would making zerg stronger be "balancing" the game. Spanishiwa is finding great success with his recent builds that rely on his SCOUTING. Scouting does not only mean being able to see exactly whats in his base, it means that you have the experience to recognize a pattern of play and gather information from it.
Wow great first post man, welcome to TL!
Totally agree with both of you on the Day[9] v idra talk and I'm so glad that Day[9] is getting the attention and praise from blizzard that he deserves!
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On May 07 2011 02:00 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 23:52 eiger wrote:On May 05 2011 23:38 loveeholicce wrote:On May 05 2011 01:32 AlBundy wrote:Wow thanks for the link, I love Day9. Some interesting info there: There are always a bunch of replays the viewers never see that influence the discussion of the replay or content in any given daily. You'll always hear me say things like "he's heading to do X, Y, or Z, but he COULD do A or B," and that is always a consideration for any daily. The studies of the replays not shown are what gives me A and B. When I sit down and start analyzing a game for a daily, I'm actually utilizing the same techniques that I use for improving my own play privately. The only difference is I'm talking while doing so. I know some people are doubting Day9's legitimacy, and not aknowledging his views about the game. That is quite deplorable imho  Even if he doesn't play in tournaments, he has a better understanding of the game than a lot of top players, thats undeniable. How is it undeniable? He doesn't play anymore, I dont see how you could think he knows the game better than pro players who make a living from the game. Day9 is awesome but some people get carried away Your game knowledge is not measured by your competition results.
If it was, then the game knowledge of Roger Federer's coach would be zero.Stop making this fundamental mistake. Sorry for bolding out, but the point needs to be hammered home with some people. Yes it does, and this is nothing like Tennis, although Roger Federers coach was probably a tennis player, whether amateur or professional, so he does know about Tennis. Sorry, but game knowledge IS based on how much you play. It's not based on results directly, but results themselves are based on how good you are and how much you play. Correlation / causation kind of thing. Thing with starcraft is it can be deceptively simple. You can look at all the pro games you want but unless you're actually actively playing the game you won't have the same extent of understanding, not even close. Day9 is a good player, way better than the average person but to think his knowledge is better than a pro players knowledge is absolutely ridiculous. You need to play the game at a high level to understand it at that level. The overarching RTS concepts that day9 brings are excellent, and it makes sense because he was once himself a amateur / pro player, but about starcraft 2 specifically he doesnt have the knowledge the professionals have because he doesn't play it as much as they do, which leads to him saying things that are often wrong like telling Idra to get 20 infestors in a lategame ZvP while every other state of the game pro agreed they should be supplement units used in small numbers
You should tell that to all the BW coaches and managers that they know nothing about the game because they don't play at a super high level anymore.
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On May 07 2011 02:02 mikyaJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:48 ati wrote:On May 05 2011 01:55 Drazzyo wrote:
this interview reminds me of when he was going buck wild in his balance/imbalance argument with idrA. my heart said day9 was right but idrA made a good point about nscouting being so difficult Yeah but they were both right. Idra said: everything I tried, and everything I can imagine, did (wouldn't) work. Day9 response was basically: is everything that you can imagine really everything that exists? No IdrA was right. Day9 might also be right. Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 01:32 War Horse wrote:On May 06 2011 23:45 Ifrit wrote:On May 05 2011 08:43 Qzy wrote:It really shined through last sotg where IdrA slaughtered Day9 in his inexperience. Incontrol: Idra, what was the weakest race in BW? Idra: Terran Incontrol: And what race did you play in BW? Idra: Terran People wondering should let TLO and Day9 host the "Imbalanced"-Show. If you're eager to receive somewhat unbiased results in a balance-oriented discussion, random players are the most qualified to do so. But in the end, it's just the dev-team at Blizzard who's actually able to do this, because they can base their decisions on myriads of facts and decide scientifically instead of based on emotions, which is exactly what Idra did/does. How can Idra seriously believe Terran was the weakest race? Idra confuses weakness with difficulty to play. Terran was the most demanding mechanical and strategic race in BW, but many would argue that played optimally, it was the best. So many of the best players of the game played Terran - Flash, Nada, Oov, Boxer, etc There is no doubt in BW that Protoss was the easiest race to play and Terran was the hardest, but no one argued that P was overpowered and T underpowered. In fact, at the top levels, its often Protoss that has the weakest showings. At the peak of competition, Terran essentially had the highest skill ceiling, and therefore the absolute best players in the worlds were Terrans a lot of the time, because the players were rewarded the most for playing the best i.e. most of the time, the best Terran player was better than the best Zerg player was better than the best Protoss player. However the foreign scene that IdrA was home to was no where near this level of play, and therefore, Protoss, considered the easiest race, did very well. If you're not at the peak level of play, he believed (and there was merit to this) that if there were equally skilled Protoss, Terran, and Zerg players, the Terran would lose out of all of them.
So Terran was the weakest because all the players sucked?
Its like saying "Terran is the weakest at Gold". Who cares, balance doesn't even matter at that level., and the game isn't balanced towards that level.
Terran was never, ever the weakest race, and for Idra to think so is laughable.
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Also I just remembered... Doesn't IdrA himself, in that SOTG video, say later on during the Q/A portion that his prep for tournaments does not necessarily involve playing but thinking about the game.... That in itself contradicts everyone here saying understanding is derived from playing.
Thanks for the warm welcome Fr33t! 
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day 9s inexperience in SC2 really showed during that state of the game debate he had with idra about balance.
idra was 100% correct on all points he made. day 9 was right on some points to, but his inexperience just showed drastically. he barely had anything to say most of the time.
i know idra is a pretty fucking stuck up person, but he makes good points. anyone that has played a zerg knows that it really is a guessing game. anyone that has played zerg knows that they have to play defensively the entire game and react to whatever the opponent is doing. 99% of the time it is usually terran or protoss that are extremely aggressive and zerg needs to react to that. and like idra mentioned one of zergs main defenses, the spine crawler, simply takes to long to build.
it also takes eons for a zerg to get to lair tech and make 2nd tier units where as a terran or toss can get to tier 2 in nearly half the time on just 1 base.
day 9 on the other hand mainly plays random, and he has mentioned numerous times in his past dailies that zerg is his weakest race. he also admitted to how hard it is to learn and play the zerg race compared to the other races. infact i dont think anyone in all of TL would deny how big of a learning curve the zerg race has over other races. yet despite this day 9 stubbornly refuses to admit to any kind of balance issues. again its showing that day 9 lacks experience for SC2.
i love day 9, but idra just had him on the ropes the entire time with that debate. zerg needs work done and blizz is just biding there precious time till HoTS comes out i guess. the recent changes of the infester movement nerf and the spore crawler buff is not even worth mentioning.
at this point i just cannot see how anyone can say zerg is not a underpowered race right now. sure u can say shit like "well zerg has the best caster unit in the game!". sure, it is a pretty good caster. but guess what? its our ONLY caster..................... and its nothing compared to the game changing unit called "defiler" but i digress.
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Nice interview, good exposure is always nice for the scene and Day9 deserves it.
As for the Idra/Day9 SOTG debate,+ Show Spoiler + personnally I just cant take anything that Idra says about balance seriously. I have never seen a single of his argument be about the games balance, its always about his own perception of balance (and it just turns out that he is always, in the weakest spot). To say that Day9's inexperience showed there is very narrow minded. Im not saying he was entirely right, nor saying that Idra was totally wrong, yes it is incredibly hard to properly scout as zerg if you compare it to terran and protoss, but its still not impossible and as far as I know it wasnt a case for imbalance in sc:bw because people figured patterns, figured ways to scout, etc. I love watching Sheth's stream for that exact reason, he TRIES to find ways to know what its opponent is doing, through any means possible, and is now able to recognize certain patterns as to be able to guess pretty well what the opponent is doing. Obviously this requires a way higher level then anything P or T would have to do through scanning or obs, but it doesnt make it impossible nor imbalanced.
(spoilered cause its kinda off topic but still kept it since people are talking about it in here)
Good luck to Sean in his future endeavours
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On May 07 2011 05:51 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:00 loveeholicce wrote:On May 06 2011 23:52 eiger wrote:On May 05 2011 23:38 loveeholicce wrote:On May 05 2011 01:32 AlBundy wrote:Wow thanks for the link, I love Day9. Some interesting info there: There are always a bunch of replays the viewers never see that influence the discussion of the replay or content in any given daily. You'll always hear me say things like "he's heading to do X, Y, or Z, but he COULD do A or B," and that is always a consideration for any daily. The studies of the replays not shown are what gives me A and B. When I sit down and start analyzing a game for a daily, I'm actually utilizing the same techniques that I use for improving my own play privately. The only difference is I'm talking while doing so. I know some people are doubting Day9's legitimacy, and not aknowledging his views about the game. That is quite deplorable imho Even if he doesn't play in tournaments, he has a better understanding of the game than a lot of top players, thats undeniable. How is it undeniable? He doesn't play anymore, I dont see how you could think he knows the game better than pro players who make a living from the game. Day9 is awesome but some people get carried away Your game knowledge is not measured by your competition results.
If it was, then the game knowledge of Roger Federer's coach would be zero.Stop making this fundamental mistake. Sorry for bolding out, but the point needs to be hammered home with some people. Yes it does, and this is nothing like Tennis, although Roger Federers coach was probably a tennis player, whether amateur or professional, so he does know about Tennis. Sorry, but game knowledge IS based on how much you play. It's not based on results directly, but results themselves are based on how good you are and how much you play. Correlation / causation kind of thing. Thing with starcraft is it can be deceptively simple. You can look at all the pro games you want but unless you're actually actively playing the game you won't have the same extent of understanding, not even close. Day9 is a good player, way better than the average person but to think his knowledge is better than a pro players knowledge is absolutely ridiculous. You need to play the game at a high level to understand it at that level. The overarching RTS concepts that day9 brings are excellent, and it makes sense because he was once himself a amateur / pro player, but about starcraft 2 specifically he doesnt have the knowledge the professionals have because he doesn't play it as much as they do, which leads to him saying things that are often wrong like telling Idra to get 20 infestors in a lategame ZvP while every other state of the game pro agreed they should be supplement units used in small numbers You should tell that to all the BW coaches and managers that they know nothing about the game because they don't play at a super high level anymore.
They did all play BW though. Basically all of of them are former amateur players who were A or better on iccup. Even January was in a clan with reach lol. Day9 hasn't played sc2 at a high level, thats why his knowledge pertaining specifically to sc2 is not as good lol
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On May 07 2011 06:09 Ballistixz wrote:
day 9s inexperience in SC2 really showed during that state of the game debate he had with idra about balance.
I'm not sure what you're talking about Day9 handled the situation perfectly there was no debate. How are you supposed to respond when someones ranting without specific examples.
It seemed to me like Day9's point was that Idra may find all of the problems he listed as frustrating. But from a balance perspective as long as zergs are still winning series and staying competitive then their lack of scouting is just a part of the current balance/meta-game.
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On May 07 2011 06:09 Ballistixz wrote:
i know idra is a pretty fucking stuck up person, but he makes good points. anyone that has played a zerg knows that it really is a guessing game. anyone that has played zerg knows that they have to play defensively the entire game and react to whatever the opponent is doing. 99% of the time it is usually terran or protoss that are extremely aggressive and zerg needs to react to that. and like idra mentioned one of zergs main defenses, the spine crawler, simply takes to long to build.
it also takes eons for a zerg to get to lair tech and make 2nd tier units where as a terran or toss can get to tier 2 in nearly half the time on just 1 base.
Thing is, Day9's point was that none of that makes the game imbalanced, if your odds of winning are good enough despite all of it.
Again, like I said in my earlier post, IdrA's problem isn't that the game isn't balanced, in the sense that Zerg's odds of winning are too low, it's that he doesn't have control of the game from beginning to end no matter what he does. He feels that playing perfectly should give him 100% control of the game, but SC2 today is closer to poker than to chess in that you sometimes have to make choices based on possibilities that are outside your knowledge or control.
Poker is a good example of a balanced game where perfect play will still lose you a hand now and then.
Edit: I could see an argument that forcing a player like IdrA, who would love to scout just to ensure that he can spend 100% of his money on econ, to roll the dice on early aggression might actually be better design in terms of keeping games more exciting for spectators. Yes it's frustrating for the top player who feels like he can't simply dominate 100% of his games with skillful play, but for a viewer, the possibility that someone might get the jump on him or that he might sometimes have to adopt some extremely aggressive early strategy provides more varied gameplay and maybe more excitement because the spectator doesn't know exactly how things will play out.
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On May 07 2011 05:53 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:02 mikyaJ wrote:On May 07 2011 00:48 ati wrote:On May 05 2011 01:55 Drazzyo wrote:
this interview reminds me of when he was going buck wild in his balance/imbalance argument with idrA. my heart said day9 was right but idrA made a good point about nscouting being so difficult Yeah but they were both right. Idra said: everything I tried, and everything I can imagine, did (wouldn't) work. Day9 response was basically: is everything that you can imagine really everything that exists? No IdrA was right. Day9 might also be right. On May 07 2011 01:32 War Horse wrote:On May 06 2011 23:45 Ifrit wrote:On May 05 2011 08:43 Qzy wrote:It really shined through last sotg where IdrA slaughtered Day9 in his inexperience. Incontrol: Idra, what was the weakest race in BW? Idra: Terran Incontrol: And what race did you play in BW? Idra: Terran People wondering should let TLO and Day9 host the "Imbalanced"-Show. If you're eager to receive somewhat unbiased results in a balance-oriented discussion, random players are the most qualified to do so. But in the end, it's just the dev-team at Blizzard who's actually able to do this, because they can base their decisions on myriads of facts and decide scientifically instead of based on emotions, which is exactly what Idra did/does. How can Idra seriously believe Terran was the weakest race? Idra confuses weakness with difficulty to play. Terran was the most demanding mechanical and strategic race in BW, but many would argue that played optimally, it was the best. So many of the best players of the game played Terran - Flash, Nada, Oov, Boxer, etc There is no doubt in BW that Protoss was the easiest race to play and Terran was the hardest, but no one argued that P was overpowered and T underpowered. In fact, at the top levels, its often Protoss that has the weakest showings. At the peak of competition, Terran essentially had the highest skill ceiling, and therefore the absolute best players in the worlds were Terrans a lot of the time, because the players were rewarded the most for playing the best i.e. most of the time, the best Terran player was better than the best Zerg player was better than the best Protoss player. However the foreign scene that IdrA was home to was no where near this level of play, and therefore, Protoss, considered the easiest race, did very well. If you're not at the peak level of play, he believed (and there was merit to this) that if there were equally skilled Protoss, Terran, and Zerg players, the Terran would lose out of all of them. So Terran was the weakest because all the players sucked? Its like saying "Terran is the weakest at Gold". Who cares, balance doesn't even matter at that level., and the game isn't balanced towards that level. Terran was never, ever the weakest race, and for Idra to think so is laughable.
Lets use an analogy to a FPS.
Terran is a sniper, Zerg/Protoss is an automatic gun.
The sniper is hardest to use, but at the highest level is the most valuable because players can kill with is so easily, compared to lower levels where, spraying and praying can be more effective than a skillful sniper.
Now this is an extreme example, but I think you'll get the point.
For reference, the foreign scene was wayyyyyy below the BW scene just in case you didn't know.
Also, in the beginning Terran was definitely the weakest race until BoxeR showed that you can be creative, and used units that were "useless", so your conclusion is just wrong. And guess what some people are saying about Zerg now? They just have to be creative -_-
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That Picture is so awesome, some one should make a new day[9] overlay or something with it.
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Awesome its good that Blizzard is getting closer to the community!! :D
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haven't read every single post, but has anyone entertained the thought that avoiding making statements about balance is a PR move? if he says zerg is weakest or "only noobs play toss" he alienates potential viewers and supporters. he loses from making statements like that, while someone like idra benefits imo.
hope you can do some more stuff about mechanics Day[9]! maybe bring in other pros from each race to give tips? being a sub masters player, i'm more interested in techniques to work on mechanics than nay other subject
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I starting watching you analisis show before i ever really got into competitive play. After watching EVERY single one of your vids in 3 months, i started played and ranks straight to silver in 3v3 up to rank 21, after my second match (in 3v3) I think that having played a total of only like 20 matches i have done very well. (please note that i drilled while watching the daylies, so i have a good amount of timing.)
Day9 - Helping 'em 3v3 players.
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Uhh Mellamojay, the devs don't think like this. And they do patch and change things in the short term. So what Day9 says about it is basically irrelevant. The game isn't going to be left to balance itself for better or for worse.
On May 07 2011 05:53 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 02:02 mikyaJ wrote:On May 07 2011 00:48 ati wrote:On May 05 2011 01:55 Drazzyo wrote:
this interview reminds me of when he was going buck wild in his balance/imbalance argument with idrA. my heart said day9 was right but idrA made a good point about nscouting being so difficult Yeah but they were both right. Idra said: everything I tried, and everything I can imagine, did (wouldn't) work. Day9 response was basically: is everything that you can imagine really everything that exists? No IdrA was right. Day9 might also be right. On May 07 2011 01:32 War Horse wrote:On May 06 2011 23:45 Ifrit wrote:On May 05 2011 08:43 Qzy wrote:It really shined through last sotg where IdrA slaughtered Day9 in his inexperience. Incontrol: Idra, what was the weakest race in BW? Idra: Terran Incontrol: And what race did you play in BW? Idra: Terran People wondering should let TLO and Day9 host the "Imbalanced"-Show. If you're eager to receive somewhat unbiased results in a balance-oriented discussion, random players are the most qualified to do so. But in the end, it's just the dev-team at Blizzard who's actually able to do this, because they can base their decisions on myriads of facts and decide scientifically instead of based on emotions, which is exactly what Idra did/does. How can Idra seriously believe Terran was the weakest race? Idra confuses weakness with difficulty to play. Terran was the most demanding mechanical and strategic race in BW, but many would argue that played optimally, it was the best. So many of the best players of the game played Terran - Flash, Nada, Oov, Boxer, etc There is no doubt in BW that Protoss was the easiest race to play and Terran was the hardest, but no one argued that P was overpowered and T underpowered. In fact, at the top levels, its often Protoss that has the weakest showings. At the peak of competition, Terran essentially had the highest skill ceiling, and therefore the absolute best players in the worlds were Terrans a lot of the time, because the players were rewarded the most for playing the best i.e. most of the time, the best Terran player was better than the best Zerg player was better than the best Protoss player. However the foreign scene that IdrA was home to was no where near this level of play, and therefore, Protoss, considered the easiest race, did very well. If you're not at the peak level of play, he believed (and there was merit to this) that if there were equally skilled Protoss, Terran, and Zerg players, the Terran would lose out of all of them. So Terran was the weakest because all the players sucked? Its like saying "Terran is the weakest at Gold". Who cares, balance doesn't even matter at that level., and the game isn't balanced towards that level. Terran was never, ever the weakest race, and for Idra to think so is laughable.
Blizzard is now balancing SC2 for every level though.
And at IdrA's BW level, Terran was considered the most difficult (hence why there's a lot more Z/P top foreigners). But that's not weakness of course, so he's wrong, but we know what he meant.
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On May 05 2011 08:43 Qzy wrote:
Who cares tho - I don't see him as a community person rather than a person not able to discuss balance or have a good view on the game.
Hopefully average Joe starts worshiping good players, in stead of commentators, such that SC2 can move into a new phase2.
It really shined through last sotg where IdrA slaughtered Day9 in his inexperience.
User was temp banned for this post.
Wow... Can't believe you're getting banned for that.
As soon as anyone expresses anti mainstream opinions they're silenced. Lol.
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On May 07 2011 18:07 FIRETRUCK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:43 Qzy wrote:
Who cares tho - I don't see him as a community person rather than a person not able to discuss balance or have a good view on the game.
Hopefully average Joe starts worshiping good players, in stead of commentators, such that SC2 can move into a new phase2.
It really shined through last sotg where IdrA slaughtered Day9 in his inexperience.
User was temp banned for this post. Wow... Can't believe you're getting banned for that. As soon as anyone expresses anti mainstream opinions they're silenced. Lol.
Yeah it's quite shocking...
You can say your opinion only if it's a good one :/
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On May 07 2011 18:07 FIRETRUCK wrote:
As soon as anyone expresses anti mainstream opinions they're silenced. Lol.
Being disrespectful to forum veterans has always been grounds for a ban. A bunch of people in this thread have disagreed strongly with Day[9] on this issue without being banned.
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EPT
