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On October 25 2012 02:42 Josh111 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:33 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:23 wacksteven wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:09 wacksteven wrote:
Wow, so I apparently stopped watching at the wrong time last night...or the right time depending on perspective.
After watching the vod of the rest of the show from last night; I think that a lot of people got a little crazy. Marcus is a passionate individual and will always be. That's why people love him and some people dislike him. Destiny wanted to come on the show and probably against his better judgement djWHEAT brought him on to speak his side of things. Destiny came on and basically continued his rant-post with no real support. The conversation just kind of degrades from there with everyone, tbh. Painuser and IdrA were the voice of reason here. Good job, Taylor and Greg. Geoff was probably trying to be entertaining like he usually is (let's be honest, a lot of people watch him do things cause he's smart and pretty damn funny) and I think he made a few comments that took things too far. If I was Marcus and I had brought someone on my show to speak their mind and then they just outright shit on the hosts and hangup on them - I don't know if I could laugh it off, either.
Now, I think a lot of people failed to recognize that Destiny seems to be speaking more about HIS numbers specifically. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the main revenue for him is his stream. He is a stream personality, more than a pro player of this game. OF COURSE his perspective is one of actual direct stream numbers for himself. Starcraft II as an esport almost doesn't affect him at all. The general casual interest should be his primary concern, which is what he seems to be pushing for Blizzard to fix. The pros probably wouldn't have any affect on the stuff he wants to change. Since he has kind of thrown out the opportunities to get big sponsors through various choices he has made; I don't blame him for not recognizing what is happening on the other end of the spectrum.
IdrA and iNcontroL are pro players with (again, I'm not sure on this, but I'm guessing) most of their income from salary + sponsors? So, their main monetary concerns are in regards to the overall kind of numbers, and not specifically their direct stream numbers? The overall growth of esports and starcraft as an esport should be a huge help to them as more sponsors will be interested, especially in one of the most highly regarded teams. Their point seemed to be is that it is growing still and not in danger. So, while individual streamers (like Destiny) might be taking a hit directly to their streams, it doesn't affect them as much. They want to argue that creating a more balanced game with better esports support is the way to grow the game, along with supporting the players and events - and I think for them, it definitely is.
djWHEAT also directly benefits from the growth of esports overall as he works for Twitch (and herp derp, numbers going up overall) plus the fact that he has been proven to cover multiple games gives him a lot of flexibility.
I don't blame Destiny or other streaming personalities for SC2 for freaking out as his main source of income is being affected by a drop in individual stream numbers, or diversity in games. I feel like that might have been good to specifically point out. 1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically. 2) You are also wrong here. Idra actually kinded sided with destiny, but he don't think anything can be fixed by tweeting. Incontrol talks about how other factors are more important. 3) DJwheat missed the entire point. Proof? Reference? Something? These are all random statements. 1) Eh did you watch the podcast? DJwheat even admitted that those "up-numbers" were not sc2-specific 2) I just stated idra's opinion. Go watch the show for your self. But idra do not think sc2 is growing. He thinks it will be "fine" and there is nothing they can do about it. 3) DO this. Read destiny's post. Now look at every single question djwheat asked destiny. They were all completely irrelevant. But the argument is that it doesn't matter if sc2 numbers are stagnant and not growing because esport views is up and that is what matters. SC2 will continue to be successful as long as esports is successful because its the only RTS right now.. Thats the argument.. So DJwheat pointing out that the numbers are in fact growing just being spread out over multiple games and a ton of tournaments is a very important and valid point.
This argument is valid only from djWheat's perspective since twitch.tv doesn't care what exacly the viewers are watching. twitch.tv is interested in overall viewer numbers.
However SC2 teams, players and tournaments do care wich esport game has more players and viewer numbers.
And the whole point is, we, SC2 community, are trying our best to make SC2 the crown of esports and Blizzard does not, so we try to reason with Blizzard to almost no effect and here we are, sooner or later it had to come to this...
Edit: here is the source of what djWheat said about stream numbers:
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Here's what djWheat also said:
(1h 21m 55s)
http://pl.twitch.tv/onemoregametv/b/336653494
"...people are watching more games. It may not be StarCraft, but people are watching more shit..."
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On October 25 2012 02:52 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:48 Integra wrote:On October 25 2012 02:39 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:37 Bedrock wrote:On October 25 2012 02:35 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:27 TheSir wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:
1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically.
Data please, otherwise this point is useless. And im not convinced the numbers are down, unless someone comes with data im not buying it. go look at individual stream counts and compare them to one year ago. You ahve to be insane not to notice that almost every streamer has fewer viewers that one year ago, and I do not think anyone disputes that (neither did incontrol nor idra). But both think it will be fine, and that Sc2 won't die. lol I believe they're asking YOU for the source.. not for you to go tell other people to go find them.  Yeh i tell them they are insane. I am also not going to find sources that we are richer today than 1000 years ago. THis is common knowledge, and it's supposed to be the other way around. The ones who goes against common knowledge should be providing numbers. not a single thing you just said made any sense. what exactly didn't you understand? Do you disagree that it is common knowledge that sc2 viewerships is declining?
Yes, like DJWheat explained as to why that was, and then you said that DJWheat had either manipulated or did not understand the topic, even though he works as the damn place. Then someone asked if you had any sources to back this up or if it was just speculation as which you replied that they had to look them up yourself. Next guy said that they wanted YOU to give them the sources and you replied with " am also not going to find sources that we are richer today than 1000 years ago. THis is common knowledge, and it's supposed to be the other way around. The ones who goes against common knowledge should be providing numbers."
Do you see the problem yet?
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I Really hope that there will come an apology out from DJwheat, and Incontrol. Destiny allready said he was sorry for acting like that on the show. Espacially with the BM move he did when quitting the call.
Incontrol still rages on and cannot grasp the point Destiny was trying to get across. Destiny was the one being personally attacked on the show by incontrol, without him being able to defend himself. And Geoff now thinks that everybody is againt him for no reason, and ask why isnt destiny getting some hate.
I wont follow Geoff anymore untill he apologies for all the shit talk he did against steven. Steven might be wrong on some of his points, but it still doesnt justify why Geoff was acting like a total dick. IdrA and Geoff were the ones saying go back to LoL, and why bother making posts if the scene is failing. wow. good arguments there fellas.
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On October 25 2012 02:57 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:55 MacNaughty wrote:
I'm on Incontrol, Idra and Wheat's side. Destiny's fanbase will support him unconditionally, but notice how the people supporting destiny in this thread have like 19 posts. I do too, but these doomsayers probably won't be a part of the sc scene next week, they'll be following whatever drama's out there.
Long live SC The sooner him and his cult leave the scene and move on to w/e he will inevitably fail at next, the better
This so much .. I can't stand people anymore who keep saying Destiny wants to grow sc2 when he happily took on the opportunity to stream LoL, unfortunately he wasn't having more viewers than with sc2 so he came back. He would've had bigger numbers while streaming LoL he would've kept playing it and we wouldn't hear from him ever. But yeah destiny is the sc2 prophet yaddayadda ( + his brigade of fanboys upvoting everything praising destiny and downvoting the rest )
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On October 25 2012 03:00 TheRealArtemis wrote:
I Really hope that there will come an apology out from DJwheat, and Incontrol. Destiny allready said he was sorry for acting like that on the show. Espacially with the BM move he did when quitting the call.
Incontrol still rages on and cannot grasp the point Destiny was trying to get across. Destiny was the one being personally attacked on the show by incontrol, without him being able to defend himself. And Geoff now thinks that everybody is againt him for no reason, and ask why isnt destiny getting some hate.
I wont follow Geoff anymore untill he apologies for all the shit talk he did against steven. Steven might be wrong on some of his points, but it still doesnt justify why Geoff was acting like a total dick. IdrA and Geoff were the ones saying go back to LoL, and why bother making posts if the scene is failing. wow. good arguments there fellas.
Oh boo fucking hoo. The kid who rages and call's people ni****rs and f****ots when he loses a game of starcraft got told to shut the fuck up and move on. You and destiny need to get over it already, He doesn't deserve an apology and to be perfectly honest, he got treated with all the respect he's ever shown anyone else.
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Don't usually watch ITG, where can I view this latest episode? Can't find it on their site.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
LOOK
I gave an amazingly over the top animated rant. It was offensive and it was mean. But it was directed at Destiny. Why is this different? Well, Destiny fucking dishes it out more so than anyone else. He doesn't make points without mocking others.. I get that: I am the same way. I felt like pretending to shit in my hand and doing a randy savage impression would make it pretty clear I was hamming it up pretty good. I in no way shape or form think this makes it "ok" or alright.. it's obscene and rude. BUT GUESS WHAT? Me ranting about fat girls wearing flip flops is mean/rude. Me ranting about horses IS mean and rude. Me comparing Artosis to a frog that eats shit off the ground IS mean and rude. I have ALWAYS joked this way. And NO this doesn't change anything.. I don't hate Destiny at all. I don't even dislike the guy.. I think he is fucking hilarious and I watch his stream frequently because I enjoy it. But I sure as fuck didn't agree with what he was saying so rather than give a straight laced boring speech I went into "rant mode" which has always been an "incontrol special" or w/e.
I am not sorry for my rant. It was a fucking joke. I am not sorry for high-fiving.. it was a fucking joke. The only thing I regret is having ever responded to this community. 2GD talks about my dead mother watching me masturbate and calls me a cunt on air and it's "Oh 2GD!" Want to know the difference? You guys know god damn well he doesn't give a fuck. I am guilty of giving a fuck.
Well there it is. I will rant and rave in the future. It's what I've done for my entire life. People usually love it but selectively and for no good reason it's also the reason "I lose respect" or "you have lost a fan today."
There are people on reddit campaigning to call the sponsors of EG and get me fired. Part of me hopes they are successful. I couldn't leave SC2 if I tried. Maybe I need this community to fucking murder me.
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destiny being clueless as always.
Incontrol and Idra speaking common sense truths, that should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
DjWheat being awesome.
Good episode, bring more.
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On October 24 2012 20:14 Sapphire.lux wrote:Thank you!
Thanks. For anyone that still needs the link : )
God damn so many pages .... where are the entertaining strategy debates huh ? : (
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On October 25 2012 02:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:27 TheSir wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:
1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically.
Data please, otherwise this point is useless. And im not convinced the numbers are down, unless someone comes with data im not buying it. go look at individual stream counts and compare them to one year ago. You ahve to be insane not to notice that almost every streamer has fewer viewers that one year ago, and I do not think anyone disputes that (neither did incontrol nor idra). But both think it will be fine, and that Sc2 won't die.
That doesn't say anything unless you have data to back that up. And you dont only need streaming numbers but you also needs the amount of streams and the amount of hours events/people streamed SC2.
Im not sure what is true but im not gonna put this in my opinion because i dont know and probably no one knows. A lot of people bitch and complain atm but i see no one picking it up and do some research. Everybody that went to college or university etc knows how to put some simple deskresearch together were people can do something with, instead everybody just screams this and that.
Just like everybody is screaming, well LoL is doing way better then SC2, well depends how you look at it. In my opinion SC2 does better, they have a better viewer/player ratio as LoL and that as a retail game... And those are facts backup by released data from events. Or just see the amount of viewers now at twitch, LoL only has 2 times more viewers while they have, what like 20million+ more players atm? Yeah LoL is doing amazing in that regard.
And im gonna pull this out of my ass like a lot of people do atm, SC2 is the only game people watch without playing it. (might be true or not but thats my feeling)
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On October 25 2012 02:01 colossusFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 01:31 Lazarusnpx wrote:On October 25 2012 01:11 colossusFTW wrote:On October 25 2012 01:07 Golbat wrote:On October 25 2012 00:43 colossusFTW wrote:On October 25 2012 00:36 vultdylan wrote:On October 25 2012 00:31 colossusFTW wrote:On October 25 2012 00:27 xzidez wrote:
I hate to admit it but destiny is right. Don't you remember the shitstorm that spread through internet like a wildfire when blizzard announced that you had to use real name on the official forums after BNet 2.0 release ?
Its not that blizzard doesn't care. Its that they care even more about the actual $$ they get on the game.. and this crap is the worst PR nightmare they can possible get. There is no way they can avoid it now, similar to when they said you were supposed to use your real name.
If we people would just have sucked it up like idra and incontrol is suggesting and doing "what we can" instead of getting all mental over the forums.. we would have been forced to use real names.. And guess what? We don't..,. EXACTLY what the fuck can we do!!?? rhetorical question we can not do jack shit as a community with out blizzard what is the community going to get together in a huge circle jerk and hack blizzard so we can implement the changes we want? the problems ly with blizzard so idra and incontrols point that we as a community can only do what we do is fucking ridiculous we cant do shit about blizzard being fucked only blizzard can. They weren't trying to say that the community can influence what Blizzard is doing, they even said it. They said there is no use trying to coerce Blizzard into changing the game because even after two years of trying to do that, they have had enough of the lack of response on Blizzard's end. It is what the community can do to increase the quality of production of things like tournaments and leagues to increase interest in e-sports that they want to work for. They know they can't change the game that Blizzard makes, but rather the way the public views it and how competition is put out there. BTW clean up your vocabulary. I have seen you on other threads, and it is rather immature. And it doesn't help your case. But if the community can't get blizzard to do anything how is this game to stay alive the entire point here is that getting sponsors and shit isnt going to help THE CASUAL GAMER. Without casual gamers you have no community. Nobody in this thread is a professional gamer we are all casual gamers and while we might be already hooked on starcraft you need new fans we cannot survive forever on the same community we have had for years. The point destiny is making is that you need more casual gamers for a community and at this point in time there is no incentive to play this game unless you are a professional. So when people go on their computer they say holy shit why the fuck would I play sc2 when I could play a user friendly game like dota2 or LoL. The only thing the community CAN do is be the community. We're here for SC2. That's all we can actually do. I wish we could just tweet at Blizzard every time we wanted something to get done, but unfortunately that isn't possible. What you and I can do for starcraft is stick around, support tournaments and players by watching streams and shows and stuff. I haven't played a game of SC2 in months, but I'm still a part of the SC2 community. The community should focus on making the best viewer experience they can, and hopefully that will cause people to come in and see it and stay. So with that logic were just suppose to sit here and let blizzard shit on us and we stay despite getting treated like dogshit? thats is terrible fucking logic. When everyone has switched to LoL itll be to late for blizzard to say we fucked up were going to change that no, we fucking stay here because we love SC2, we either love to watch it or to play it or both, and we will keep nagging blizzard about all this issues. This is NOT a new issue, people been rightfully bitching to blizzard about this since the game came out and if ever they fix everything that is asked we will find new things to ask because we love the game. What the community can do is keep what they are doing and improving on it, try to get more content out there, try to get more people to enjoy the game and help wherever we can. I, and most people on TL i would suppose, am here because i do enjoy SC2, and games will always be restricted by what they are in their true nature. All i am going to do is keep following the scene and the game BECAUSE I ENJOY IT, and people like djwheat, day9, incontrol, tastosis, etc will keep putting out the content because they enjoy doing it and there are still people who care for more then numbers. That is the fault in destiny doomsday prophecy, SC2 started because people enjoyed it, and it will keep going on when people who dont realy enjoy it and just jump on it because it is the trend leave bahahaha Tasteless has already started castin LoL hahahahaha
people have already refuted this, it was purely a gig, like djWheat did with LoL WCS 2. Still, did Tasteless anounce is retirement from SC2 to go cast LoL? dont think so
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On October 25 2012 03:12 monsterDrakar wrote:
destiny being clueless as always.
Incontrol and Idra speaking common sense truths, that should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
DjWheat being awesome.
Good episode, bring more.
This guy gets it. I don't want Geoff to apologise infact I'd be disappointed if he did cos he did fuck all to do so except from butthurt a few people who are more boring and deluded than the people who post on /r/ShitRedditSays
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On October 25 2012 03:09 iNcontroL wrote:
I am not sorry for my rant. It was a fucking joke. I am not sorry for high-fiving.. it was a fucking joke. The only thing I regret is having ever responded to this community. 2GD talks about my dead mother watching me masturbate and calls me a cunt on air and it's "Oh 2GD!" Want to know the difference? You guys know god damn well he doesn't give a fuck. I am guilty of giving a fuck.
Ummm, for one I get the impression that 2GD is an actual player in terms of e-sports propagation/has deep knowledge of professional gaming while you're...an entertainer.
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On October 25 2012 03:09 iNcontroL wrote:
LOOK
I gave an amazingly over the top animated rant. It was offensive and it was mean. But it was directed at Destiny. Why is this different? Well, Destiny fucking dishes it out more so than anyone else. He doesn't make points without mocking others.. I get that: I am the same way. I felt like pretending to shit in my hand and doing a randy savage impression would make it pretty clear I was hamming it up pretty good. I in no way shape or form think this makes it "ok" or alright.. it's obscene and rude. BUT GUESS WHAT? Me ranting about fat girls wearing flip flops is mean/rude. Me ranting about horses IS mean and rude. Me comparing Artosis to a frog that eats shit off the ground IS mean and rude. I have ALWAYS joked this way. And NO this doesn't change anything.. I don't hate Destiny at all. I don't even dislike the guy.. I think he is fucking hilarious and I watch his stream frequently because I enjoy it. But I sure as fuck didn't agree with what he was saying so rather than give a straight laced boring speech I went into "rant mode" which has always been an "incontrol special" or w/e.
I am not sorry for my rant. It was a fucking joke. I am not sorry for high-fiving.. it was a fucking joke. The only thing I regret is having ever responded to this community. 2GD talks about my dead mother watching me masturbate and calls me a cunt on air and it's "Oh 2GD!" Want to know the difference? You guys know god damn well he doesn't give a fuck. I am guilty of giving a fuck.
Well there it is. I will rant and rave in the future. It's what I've done for my entire life. People usually love it but selectively and for no good reason it's also the reason "I lose respect" or "you have lost a fan today."
There are people on reddit campaigning to call the sponsors of EG and get me fired. Part of me hopes they are successful. I couldn't leave SC2 if I tried. Maybe I need this community to fucking murder me.
At least you are getting a raise.
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On October 25 2012 03:12 monsterDrakar wrote:
destiny being clueless as always.
Incontrol and Idra speaking common sense truths, that should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
DjWheat being awesome.
Good episode, bring more.
This.
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I wonder how much of all this is caused by Destiny noticing his own stream views are down and assuming the whole ship was sinking.
On October 25 2012 03:09 iNcontroL wrote:
LOOK
I gave an amazingly over the top animated rant. It was offensive hilarious and it was mean witty. But And it was rightly directed at Destiny.
Fixed it.
Wheat's rant in the pajama pants when Destiny left was fucking badass. Fucking love DJWheat
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On October 25 2012 03:16 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 03:09 iNcontroL wrote:
I am not sorry for my rant. It was a fucking joke. I am not sorry for high-fiving.. it was a fucking joke. The only thing I regret is having ever responded to this community. 2GD talks about my dead mother watching me masturbate and calls me a cunt on air and it's "Oh 2GD!" Want to know the difference? You guys know god damn well he doesn't give a fuck. I am guilty of giving a fuck.
Ummm, for one I get the impression that 2GD is an actual player in terms of e-sports propagation/has deep knowledge of professional gaming while you're...an entertainer.
wow man.......just wow....If that's the impression you get from 2gd, then your perception is fucked to all hell. Of all the things someone could say after starting a post off with a passive aggressive "ummmm" this has got to take the cake for most ignorant.
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On October 25 2012 03:16 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 03:09 iNcontroL wrote:
I am not sorry for my rant. It was a fucking joke. I am not sorry for high-fiving.. it was a fucking joke. The only thing I regret is having ever responded to this community. 2GD talks about my dead mother watching me masturbate and calls me a cunt on air and it's "Oh 2GD!" Want to know the difference? You guys know god damn well he doesn't give a fuck. I am guilty of giving a fuck.
Ummm, for one I get the impression that 2GD is an actual player in terms of e-sports propagation/has deep knowledge of professional gaming while you're...an entertainer.
You're kidding right ? 2gd gives such little fucks that he doesn't even watch the games of his own fucking tournament
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On October 25 2012 03:17 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 03:16 Taku wrote:On October 25 2012 03:09 iNcontroL wrote:
I am not sorry for my rant. It was a fucking joke. I am not sorry for high-fiving.. it was a fucking joke. The only thing I regret is having ever responded to this community. 2GD talks about my dead mother watching me masturbate and calls me a cunt on air and it's "Oh 2GD!" Want to know the difference? You guys know god damn well he doesn't give a fuck. I am guilty of giving a fuck.
Ummm, for one I get the impression that 2GD is an actual player in terms of e-sports propagation/has deep knowledge of professional gaming while you're...an entertainer. wow man.......just wow....If that's the impression you get from 2gd, then your perception is fucked to all hell.
Have you watched his post-TI2 thing, particularly on what Valve did right and what people need to do in order to make "esports" happen? Then again this is the SC2 section so I probably shouldn't expect it lol, since I don't think he takes sc2 seriously compared to dota2.
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EPT
