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On October 25 2012 02:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:27 TheSir wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:
1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically.
Data please, otherwise this point is useless. And im not convinced the numbers are down, unless someone comes with data im not buying it. go look at individual stream counts and compare them to one year ago. You ahve to be insane not to notice that almost every streamer has fewer viewers that one year ago, and I do not think anyone disputes that (neither did incontrol nor idra). But both think it will be fine, and that Sc2 won't die.
lol I believe they're asking YOU for the source.. not for you to go tell other people to go find them.
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On October 25 2012 02:32 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:23 wacksteven wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:09 wacksteven wrote:
Wow, so I apparently stopped watching at the wrong time last night...or the right time depending on perspective.
After watching the vod of the rest of the show from last night; I think that a lot of people got a little crazy. Marcus is a passionate individual and will always be. That's why people love him and some people dislike him. Destiny wanted to come on the show and probably against his better judgement djWHEAT brought him on to speak his side of things. Destiny came on and basically continued his rant-post with no real support. The conversation just kind of degrades from there with everyone, tbh. Painuser and IdrA were the voice of reason here. Good job, Taylor and Greg. Geoff was probably trying to be entertaining like he usually is (let's be honest, a lot of people watch him do things cause he's smart and pretty damn funny) and I think he made a few comments that took things too far. If I was Marcus and I had brought someone on my show to speak their mind and then they just outright shit on the hosts and hangup on them - I don't know if I could laugh it off, either.
Now, I think a lot of people failed to recognize that Destiny seems to be speaking more about HIS numbers specifically. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the main revenue for him is his stream. He is a stream personality, more than a pro player of this game. OF COURSE his perspective is one of actual direct stream numbers for himself. Starcraft II as an esport almost doesn't affect him at all. The general casual interest should be his primary concern, which is what he seems to be pushing for Blizzard to fix. The pros probably wouldn't have any affect on the stuff he wants to change. Since he has kind of thrown out the opportunities to get big sponsors through various choices he has made; I don't blame him for not recognizing what is happening on the other end of the spectrum.
IdrA and iNcontroL are pro players with (again, I'm not sure on this, but I'm guessing) most of their income from salary + sponsors? So, their main monetary concerns are in regards to the overall kind of numbers, and not specifically their direct stream numbers? The overall growth of esports and starcraft as an esport should be a huge help to them as more sponsors will be interested, especially in one of the most highly regarded teams. Their point seemed to be is that it is growing still and not in danger. So, while individual streamers (like Destiny) might be taking a hit directly to their streams, it doesn't affect them as much. They want to argue that creating a more balanced game with better esports support is the way to grow the game, along with supporting the players and events - and I think for them, it definitely is.
djWHEAT also directly benefits from the growth of esports overall as he works for Twitch (and herp derp, numbers going up overall) plus the fact that he has been proven to cover multiple games gives him a lot of flexibility.
I don't blame Destiny or other streaming personalities for SC2 for freaking out as his main source of income is being affected by a drop in individual stream numbers, or diversity in games. I feel like that might have been good to specifically point out. 1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically. 2) You are also wrong here. Idra actually kinded sided with destiny, but he don't think anything can be fixed by tweeting. Incontrol talks about how other factors are more important. 3) DJwheat missed the entire point. Proof? Reference? Something? These are all random statements. Numbers for all Starcraft2 streamer are down. But, the overall number of people watching e-sports is up. Mostly because Team Solo Mid switched from Own3d to Twitch. On average the TSM streamer get 20,000 to 30,000 viewers, and there are five of them. The point wheat was missing is that it doesn't matter how many more people are watching e-sports if the game you are supporting is down in numbers. How can you say that because people watching League of Legends that it's good for Starcraft2 if those people are not interested in Starcraft2 at all. As evident by the decline in viewers.
This, so destiny's point is that sc2 viewers are declining and LOL has a lot more viewers. DJwheat then argues that this isn't true because LOL has a lot of viewers...
His reasoning is absolutely insane and makes zero sense. Yet a lot of people (judging from this debate) actually thought viewer counts for sc2 were up because they trust DJWheat....
It should be clear by now that DJwheat has no clue what is going on.
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On October 25 2012 02:33 MetalSlug wrote:
You guys need to CALM THE FUCK DOWN. So many pages of this bullshit because kids behave like kids ? These guys are all in their mid twentys... None was hurt (besides butthurt) its all fun and games. God how can anyone take this community serious anymore ? You are the scum that kills Starcraft with all this negativity...
Your post isn't helpful either though..
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On October 25 2012 02:37 Bedrock wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:35 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:27 TheSir wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:
1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically.
Data please, otherwise this point is useless. And im not convinced the numbers are down, unless someone comes with data im not buying it. go look at individual stream counts and compare them to one year ago. You ahve to be insane not to notice that almost every streamer has fewer viewers that one year ago, and I do not think anyone disputes that (neither did incontrol nor idra). But both think it will be fine, and that Sc2 won't die. lol I believe they're asking YOU for the source.. not for you to go tell other people to go find them.
Yeh i tell them they are insane. I am also not going to find sources that we are richer today than 1000 years ago. THis is common knowledge, and it's supposed to be the other way around. The ones who goes against common knowledge should be providing numbers.
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Wow this is something..
SC2 had a meteoric rise and paved the way for esports in this generation along with twitch and own3d. When this was going on like idra and djwheat said, sc2 was the ONLY big major new esports pushing the scene forward. It was THE ESPORT, the chosen one. People had no choice but to watch SC2 because it was the only major title being supported.
Now we have LoL (unfortunately  ) and Dota 2. These games have taken viewership away from SC2, without a doubt. These games have also grown the esports scene as a whole, as wheat said, overall viewership is way up.
At the end of the day the numbers will continue to grow around major events, patches, expansions etc., and then level off. Grow, decline, level, this will happen so long as the esports scene exists. Hopefully, every time we grow and decline and level, the new level is higher than the previous, that is the growth we need.
SC2 still has plenty of viewership to support the game and it's not going anywhere. SC2 might end up being the 3rd highest viewed esport behind Dota and LoL but it will still be a major title.
People need to chill out.
ps: I agree that blizzard has failed sc2 hardcore, and bnet 2.0 is a collossal failure. I've given up any hope for blizzard and I am not defending them whatsoever.
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On October 25 2012 02:33 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:23 wacksteven wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:09 wacksteven wrote:
Wow, so I apparently stopped watching at the wrong time last night...or the right time depending on perspective.
After watching the vod of the rest of the show from last night; I think that a lot of people got a little crazy. Marcus is a passionate individual and will always be. That's why people love him and some people dislike him. Destiny wanted to come on the show and probably against his better judgement djWHEAT brought him on to speak his side of things. Destiny came on and basically continued his rant-post with no real support. The conversation just kind of degrades from there with everyone, tbh. Painuser and IdrA were the voice of reason here. Good job, Taylor and Greg. Geoff was probably trying to be entertaining like he usually is (let's be honest, a lot of people watch him do things cause he's smart and pretty damn funny) and I think he made a few comments that took things too far. If I was Marcus and I had brought someone on my show to speak their mind and then they just outright shit on the hosts and hangup on them - I don't know if I could laugh it off, either.
Now, I think a lot of people failed to recognize that Destiny seems to be speaking more about HIS numbers specifically. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the main revenue for him is his stream. He is a stream personality, more than a pro player of this game. OF COURSE his perspective is one of actual direct stream numbers for himself. Starcraft II as an esport almost doesn't affect him at all. The general casual interest should be his primary concern, which is what he seems to be pushing for Blizzard to fix. The pros probably wouldn't have any affect on the stuff he wants to change. Since he has kind of thrown out the opportunities to get big sponsors through various choices he has made; I don't blame him for not recognizing what is happening on the other end of the spectrum.
IdrA and iNcontroL are pro players with (again, I'm not sure on this, but I'm guessing) most of their income from salary + sponsors? So, their main monetary concerns are in regards to the overall kind of numbers, and not specifically their direct stream numbers? The overall growth of esports and starcraft as an esport should be a huge help to them as more sponsors will be interested, especially in one of the most highly regarded teams. Their point seemed to be is that it is growing still and not in danger. So, while individual streamers (like Destiny) might be taking a hit directly to their streams, it doesn't affect them as much. They want to argue that creating a more balanced game with better esports support is the way to grow the game, along with supporting the players and events - and I think for them, it definitely is.
djWHEAT also directly benefits from the growth of esports overall as he works for Twitch (and herp derp, numbers going up overall) plus the fact that he has been proven to cover multiple games gives him a lot of flexibility.
I don't blame Destiny or other streaming personalities for SC2 for freaking out as his main source of income is being affected by a drop in individual stream numbers, or diversity in games. I feel like that might have been good to specifically point out. 1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically. 2) You are also wrong here. Idra actually kinded sided with destiny, but he don't think anything can be fixed by tweeting. Incontrol talks about how other factors are more important. 3) DJwheat missed the entire point. Proof? Reference? Something? These are all random statements. 1) Eh did you watch the podcast? DJwheat even admitted that those "up-numbers" were not sc2-specific 2) I just stated idra's opinion. Go watch the show for your self. But idra do not think sc2 is growing. He thinks it will be "fine" and there is nothing they can do about it. 3) DO this. Read destiny's post. Now look at every single question djwheat asked destiny. They were all completely irrelevant.
But the argument is that it doesn't matter if sc2 numbers are stagnant and not growing because esport views is up and that is what matters. SC2 will continue to be successful as long as esports is successful because its the only RTS right now.. Thats the argument.. So DJwheat pointing out that the numbers are in fact growing just being spread out over multiple games and a ton of tournaments is a very important and valid point.
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On October 25 2012 02:42 Josh111 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:33 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:23 wacksteven wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:09 wacksteven wrote:
Wow, so I apparently stopped watching at the wrong time last night...or the right time depending on perspective.
After watching the vod of the rest of the show from last night; I think that a lot of people got a little crazy. Marcus is a passionate individual and will always be. That's why people love him and some people dislike him. Destiny wanted to come on the show and probably against his better judgement djWHEAT brought him on to speak his side of things. Destiny came on and basically continued his rant-post with no real support. The conversation just kind of degrades from there with everyone, tbh. Painuser and IdrA were the voice of reason here. Good job, Taylor and Greg. Geoff was probably trying to be entertaining like he usually is (let's be honest, a lot of people watch him do things cause he's smart and pretty damn funny) and I think he made a few comments that took things too far. If I was Marcus and I had brought someone on my show to speak their mind and then they just outright shit on the hosts and hangup on them - I don't know if I could laugh it off, either.
Now, I think a lot of people failed to recognize that Destiny seems to be speaking more about HIS numbers specifically. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the main revenue for him is his stream. He is a stream personality, more than a pro player of this game. OF COURSE his perspective is one of actual direct stream numbers for himself. Starcraft II as an esport almost doesn't affect him at all. The general casual interest should be his primary concern, which is what he seems to be pushing for Blizzard to fix. The pros probably wouldn't have any affect on the stuff he wants to change. Since he has kind of thrown out the opportunities to get big sponsors through various choices he has made; I don't blame him for not recognizing what is happening on the other end of the spectrum.
IdrA and iNcontroL are pro players with (again, I'm not sure on this, but I'm guessing) most of their income from salary + sponsors? So, their main monetary concerns are in regards to the overall kind of numbers, and not specifically their direct stream numbers? The overall growth of esports and starcraft as an esport should be a huge help to them as more sponsors will be interested, especially in one of the most highly regarded teams. Their point seemed to be is that it is growing still and not in danger. So, while individual streamers (like Destiny) might be taking a hit directly to their streams, it doesn't affect them as much. They want to argue that creating a more balanced game with better esports support is the way to grow the game, along with supporting the players and events - and I think for them, it definitely is.
djWHEAT also directly benefits from the growth of esports overall as he works for Twitch (and herp derp, numbers going up overall) plus the fact that he has been proven to cover multiple games gives him a lot of flexibility.
I don't blame Destiny or other streaming personalities for SC2 for freaking out as his main source of income is being affected by a drop in individual stream numbers, or diversity in games. I feel like that might have been good to specifically point out. 1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically. 2) You are also wrong here. Idra actually kinded sided with destiny, but he don't think anything can be fixed by tweeting. Incontrol talks about how other factors are more important. 3) DJwheat missed the entire point. Proof? Reference? Something? These are all random statements. 1) Eh did you watch the podcast? DJwheat even admitted that those "up-numbers" were not sc2-specific 2) I just stated idra's opinion. Go watch the show for your self. But idra do not think sc2 is growing. He thinks it will be "fine" and there is nothing they can do about it. 3) DO this. Read destiny's post. Now look at every single question djwheat asked destiny. They were all completely irrelevant. But the argument is that it doesn't matter if sc2 numbers are stagnant and not growing because esport views is up and that is what matters. SC2 will continue to be successful as long as esports is successful because its the only RTS right now.. Thats the argument.. So DJwheat pointing out that the numbers are in fact growing just being spread out over multiple games and a ton of tournaments is a very important and valid point.
What? How exactly does sc2 benefit by LOL having more viewers and sc2 fewer viewers?
The thing is, DJwheat looks at this from a different perspective. He is just happy that esports is growing, which is fine, but irrelevant in this debate. Destiny wants sc2 to grow, Idra has given up, and Incontrol talked about alot of stuff.
So when people talk about the numbers in this debate, it should be clear that those are sc2-specific (given the context), but it seems DJwheat completely missed that point.
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On October 25 2012 02:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:27 TheSir wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:
1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically.
Data please, otherwise this point is useless. And im not convinced the numbers are down, unless someone comes with data im not buying it. go look at individual stream counts and compare them to one year ago. You ahve to be insane not to notice that almost every streamer has fewer viewers that one year ago, and I do not think anyone disputes that (neither did incontrol nor idra). But both think it will be fine, and that Sc2 won't die.
They did say there will be an influx of viewers when Hots is released. People have other things to watch on Twitch now and they have more options. It doesn’t mean they won’t come back to SC2 when there is a big event.
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Wow, just watched the last episode. Incontrol and Wheat need to grow up, show some tact in an actual debate. Idra was until he got frustrated and told Destiny to go play LoL and Painuser was being coolheaded the entire time. But Jesus, dudes, don't just scream your heads off with personal attacks.
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On October 25 2012 02:46 Hider wrote:The thing is, DJwheat looks at this from a different perspective. He is just happy that esports is growing, which is fine, but irrelevant in this debate. Destiny wants sc2 to grow, Idra has given up, and Incontrol talked about alot of stuff.
Esports growing is NOT irrelevant to this debate, it's pretty fucking key actually. Quit talking out of your ass.
The medium that is used for ALL of these games, is growing. And you call that irrelevant? Does someone really have to take the time to explain to you why that's stupid?
All destiny did was scream and bitch at the highest pitch he could trying to sell everyone his religion. He said himself "Sc2 is not fucking savable"
And you say that's a person that wants sc2 to grow? The only fucking thing destiny is good at is giving up, and this is just more proof of that. You should find a better role model.
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On October 25 2012 02:39 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:37 Bedrock wrote:On October 25 2012 02:35 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:27 TheSir wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:
1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically.
Data please, otherwise this point is useless. And im not convinced the numbers are down, unless someone comes with data im not buying it. go look at individual stream counts and compare them to one year ago. You ahve to be insane not to notice that almost every streamer has fewer viewers that one year ago, and I do not think anyone disputes that (neither did incontrol nor idra). But both think it will be fine, and that Sc2 won't die. lol I believe they're asking YOU for the source.. not for you to go tell other people to go find them. Yeh i tell them they are insane. I am also not going to find sources that we are richer today than 1000 years ago. THis is common knowledge, and it's supposed to be the other way around. The ones who goes against common knowledge should be providing numbers.
not a single thing you just said made any sense.
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On October 25 2012 02:42 Josh111 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:33 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:23 wacksteven wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:09 wacksteven wrote:
Wow, so I apparently stopped watching at the wrong time last night...or the right time depending on perspective.
After watching the vod of the rest of the show from last night; I think that a lot of people got a little crazy. Marcus is a passionate individual and will always be. That's why people love him and some people dislike him. Destiny wanted to come on the show and probably against his better judgement djWHEAT brought him on to speak his side of things. Destiny came on and basically continued his rant-post with no real support. The conversation just kind of degrades from there with everyone, tbh. Painuser and IdrA were the voice of reason here. Good job, Taylor and Greg. Geoff was probably trying to be entertaining like he usually is (let's be honest, a lot of people watch him do things cause he's smart and pretty damn funny) and I think he made a few comments that took things too far. If I was Marcus and I had brought someone on my show to speak their mind and then they just outright shit on the hosts and hangup on them - I don't know if I could laugh it off, either.
Now, I think a lot of people failed to recognize that Destiny seems to be speaking more about HIS numbers specifically. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the main revenue for him is his stream. He is a stream personality, more than a pro player of this game. OF COURSE his perspective is one of actual direct stream numbers for himself. Starcraft II as an esport almost doesn't affect him at all. The general casual interest should be his primary concern, which is what he seems to be pushing for Blizzard to fix. The pros probably wouldn't have any affect on the stuff he wants to change. Since he has kind of thrown out the opportunities to get big sponsors through various choices he has made; I don't blame him for not recognizing what is happening on the other end of the spectrum.
IdrA and iNcontroL are pro players with (again, I'm not sure on this, but I'm guessing) most of their income from salary + sponsors? So, their main monetary concerns are in regards to the overall kind of numbers, and not specifically their direct stream numbers? The overall growth of esports and starcraft as an esport should be a huge help to them as more sponsors will be interested, especially in one of the most highly regarded teams. Their point seemed to be is that it is growing still and not in danger. So, while individual streamers (like Destiny) might be taking a hit directly to their streams, it doesn't affect them as much. They want to argue that creating a more balanced game with better esports support is the way to grow the game, along with supporting the players and events - and I think for them, it definitely is.
djWHEAT also directly benefits from the growth of esports overall as he works for Twitch (and herp derp, numbers going up overall) plus the fact that he has been proven to cover multiple games gives him a lot of flexibility.
I don't blame Destiny or other streaming personalities for SC2 for freaking out as his main source of income is being affected by a drop in individual stream numbers, or diversity in games. I feel like that might have been good to specifically point out. 1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically. 2) You are also wrong here. Idra actually kinded sided with destiny, but he don't think anything can be fixed by tweeting. Incontrol talks about how other factors are more important. 3) DJwheat missed the entire point. Proof? Reference? Something? These are all random statements. 1) Eh did you watch the podcast? DJwheat even admitted that those "up-numbers" were not sc2-specific 2) I just stated idra's opinion. Go watch the show for your self. But idra do not think sc2 is growing. He thinks it will be "fine" and there is nothing they can do about it. 3) DO this. Read destiny's post. Now look at every single question djwheat asked destiny. They were all completely irrelevant. But the argument is that it doesn't matter if sc2 numbers are stagnant and not growing because esport views is up and that is what matters. SC2 will continue to be successful as long as esports is successful because its the only RTS right now.. Thats the argument.. So DJwheat pointing out that the numbers are in fact growing just being spread out over multiple games and a ton of tournaments is a very important and valid point.
Halo, Counter Strike, and Call of Duty are THE FPS games, and they aren't immune from getting dropped by tournaments. Just because there is only one RTS doesn't mean it is safe from the chopping block. If there are no viewers it will die.
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On October 25 2012 02:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:35 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:27 TheSir wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:
1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically.
Data please, otherwise this point is useless. And im not convinced the numbers are down, unless someone comes with data im not buying it. go look at individual stream counts and compare them to one year ago. You ahve to be insane not to notice that almost every streamer has fewer viewers that one year ago, and I do not think anyone disputes that (neither did incontrol nor idra). But both think it will be fine, and that Sc2 won't die. They did say there will be an influx of viewers when Hots is released. People have other things to watch on Twitch now and they have more options. It doesn’t mean they won’t come back to SC2 when there is a big event.
Oh yeh, well so did Destiny in a sense and I agree with destiny. There will be a small increase for some time, but this will merely extend the life of Sc2 rather than expand on it. Some old viewers will come back, but there will not be a lot of new viewers (why would they come and watch HOTS when they didn't watch sc2). It's possible that if HOTS was an absolutely game breaking expansion, sc2 viewerships could increase over a longer time period, but given the current unit changes in HOTS, it will merely have a short-time effect (as destiny argued), and I don't think Idra disagrees with this view.
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On October 25 2012 02:48 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:39 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:37 Bedrock wrote:On October 25 2012 02:35 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:27 TheSir wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:
1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically.
Data please, otherwise this point is useless. And im not convinced the numbers are down, unless someone comes with data im not buying it. go look at individual stream counts and compare them to one year ago. You ahve to be insane not to notice that almost every streamer has fewer viewers that one year ago, and I do not think anyone disputes that (neither did incontrol nor idra). But both think it will be fine, and that Sc2 won't die. lol I believe they're asking YOU for the source.. not for you to go tell other people to go find them. Yeh i tell them they are insane. I am also not going to find sources that we are richer today than 1000 years ago. THis is common knowledge, and it's supposed to be the other way around. The ones who goes against common knowledge should be providing numbers. not a single thing you just said made any sense.
what exactly didn't you understand? Do you disagree that it is common knowledge that sc2 viewerships is declining?
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On October 25 2012 02:48 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:46 Hider wrote:The thing is, DJwheat looks at this from a different perspective. He is just happy that esports is growing, which is fine, but irrelevant in this debate. Destiny wants sc2 to grow, Idra has given up, and Incontrol talked about alot of stuff. Esports growing is NOT irrelevant to this debate, it's pretty fucking key actually. Quit talking out of your ass. The medium that is used for ALL of these games, is growing. And you call that irrelevant? Does someone really have to take the time to explain to you why that's stupid? All destiny did was scream and bitch at the highest pitch he could trying to sell everyone his religion. He said himself "Sc2 is not fucking savable" And you say that's a person that wants sc2 to grow? The only fucking thing destiny is good at is giving up, and this is just more proof of that. You should find a better role model.
what?
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On October 25 2012 02:48 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:42 Josh111 wrote:On October 25 2012 02:33 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:23 wacksteven wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:09 wacksteven wrote:
Wow, so I apparently stopped watching at the wrong time last night...or the right time depending on perspective.
After watching the vod of the rest of the show from last night; I think that a lot of people got a little crazy. Marcus is a passionate individual and will always be. That's why people love him and some people dislike him. Destiny wanted to come on the show and probably against his better judgement djWHEAT brought him on to speak his side of things. Destiny came on and basically continued his rant-post with no real support. The conversation just kind of degrades from there with everyone, tbh. Painuser and IdrA were the voice of reason here. Good job, Taylor and Greg. Geoff was probably trying to be entertaining like he usually is (let's be honest, a lot of people watch him do things cause he's smart and pretty damn funny) and I think he made a few comments that took things too far. If I was Marcus and I had brought someone on my show to speak their mind and then they just outright shit on the hosts and hangup on them - I don't know if I could laugh it off, either.
Now, I think a lot of people failed to recognize that Destiny seems to be speaking more about HIS numbers specifically. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the main revenue for him is his stream. He is a stream personality, more than a pro player of this game. OF COURSE his perspective is one of actual direct stream numbers for himself. Starcraft II as an esport almost doesn't affect him at all. The general casual interest should be his primary concern, which is what he seems to be pushing for Blizzard to fix. The pros probably wouldn't have any affect on the stuff he wants to change. Since he has kind of thrown out the opportunities to get big sponsors through various choices he has made; I don't blame him for not recognizing what is happening on the other end of the spectrum.
IdrA and iNcontroL are pro players with (again, I'm not sure on this, but I'm guessing) most of their income from salary + sponsors? So, their main monetary concerns are in regards to the overall kind of numbers, and not specifically their direct stream numbers? The overall growth of esports and starcraft as an esport should be a huge help to them as more sponsors will be interested, especially in one of the most highly regarded teams. Their point seemed to be is that it is growing still and not in danger. So, while individual streamers (like Destiny) might be taking a hit directly to their streams, it doesn't affect them as much. They want to argue that creating a more balanced game with better esports support is the way to grow the game, along with supporting the players and events - and I think for them, it definitely is.
djWHEAT also directly benefits from the growth of esports overall as he works for Twitch (and herp derp, numbers going up overall) plus the fact that he has been proven to cover multiple games gives him a lot of flexibility.
I don't blame Destiny or other streaming personalities for SC2 for freaking out as his main source of income is being affected by a drop in individual stream numbers, or diversity in games. I feel like that might have been good to specifically point out. 1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically. 2) You are also wrong here. Idra actually kinded sided with destiny, but he don't think anything can be fixed by tweeting. Incontrol talks about how other factors are more important. 3) DJwheat missed the entire point. Proof? Reference? Something? These are all random statements. 1) Eh did you watch the podcast? DJwheat even admitted that those "up-numbers" were not sc2-specific 2) I just stated idra's opinion. Go watch the show for your self. But idra do not think sc2 is growing. He thinks it will be "fine" and there is nothing they can do about it. 3) DO this. Read destiny's post. Now look at every single question djwheat asked destiny. They were all completely irrelevant. But the argument is that it doesn't matter if sc2 numbers are stagnant and not growing because esport views is up and that is what matters. SC2 will continue to be successful as long as esports is successful because its the only RTS right now.. Thats the argument.. So DJwheat pointing out that the numbers are in fact growing just being spread out over multiple games and a ton of tournaments is a very important and valid point. Halo, Counter Strike, and Call of Duty are THE FPS games, and they aren't immune from getting dropped by tournaments. Just because there is only one RTS doesn't mean it is safe from the chopping block. If there are no viewers it will die.
As long as SC2 is the only RTS it's very unlikely that there will be no viewers. At most a little less.
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On October 25 2012 02:53 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 02:48 Urasim wrote:On October 25 2012 02:42 Josh111 wrote:On October 25 2012 02:33 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:23 wacksteven wrote:On October 25 2012 02:16 Hider wrote:On October 25 2012 02:09 wacksteven wrote:
Wow, so I apparently stopped watching at the wrong time last night...or the right time depending on perspective.
After watching the vod of the rest of the show from last night; I think that a lot of people got a little crazy. Marcus is a passionate individual and will always be. That's why people love him and some people dislike him. Destiny wanted to come on the show and probably against his better judgement djWHEAT brought him on to speak his side of things. Destiny came on and basically continued his rant-post with no real support. The conversation just kind of degrades from there with everyone, tbh. Painuser and IdrA were the voice of reason here. Good job, Taylor and Greg. Geoff was probably trying to be entertaining like he usually is (let's be honest, a lot of people watch him do things cause he's smart and pretty damn funny) and I think he made a few comments that took things too far. If I was Marcus and I had brought someone on my show to speak their mind and then they just outright shit on the hosts and hangup on them - I don't know if I could laugh it off, either.
Now, I think a lot of people failed to recognize that Destiny seems to be speaking more about HIS numbers specifically. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the main revenue for him is his stream. He is a stream personality, more than a pro player of this game. OF COURSE his perspective is one of actual direct stream numbers for himself. Starcraft II as an esport almost doesn't affect him at all. The general casual interest should be his primary concern, which is what he seems to be pushing for Blizzard to fix. The pros probably wouldn't have any affect on the stuff he wants to change. Since he has kind of thrown out the opportunities to get big sponsors through various choices he has made; I don't blame him for not recognizing what is happening on the other end of the spectrum.
IdrA and iNcontroL are pro players with (again, I'm not sure on this, but I'm guessing) most of their income from salary + sponsors? So, their main monetary concerns are in regards to the overall kind of numbers, and not specifically their direct stream numbers? The overall growth of esports and starcraft as an esport should be a huge help to them as more sponsors will be interested, especially in one of the most highly regarded teams. Their point seemed to be is that it is growing still and not in danger. So, while individual streamers (like Destiny) might be taking a hit directly to their streams, it doesn't affect them as much. They want to argue that creating a more balanced game with better esports support is the way to grow the game, along with supporting the players and events - and I think for them, it definitely is.
djWHEAT also directly benefits from the growth of esports overall as he works for Twitch (and herp derp, numbers going up overall) plus the fact that he has been proven to cover multiple games gives him a lot of flexibility.
I don't blame Destiny or other streaming personalities for SC2 for freaking out as his main source of income is being affected by a drop in individual stream numbers, or diversity in games. I feel like that might have been good to specifically point out. 1) No you are wrong. Everyone's number's is down. DJ wheat manipulated/didn't understand the point of the entire discussion when he said they were up, because he was refferring to esports and not sc2 specifically. 2) You are also wrong here. Idra actually kinded sided with destiny, but he don't think anything can be fixed by tweeting. Incontrol talks about how other factors are more important. 3) DJwheat missed the entire point. Proof? Reference? Something? These are all random statements. 1) Eh did you watch the podcast? DJwheat even admitted that those "up-numbers" were not sc2-specific 2) I just stated idra's opinion. Go watch the show for your self. But idra do not think sc2 is growing. He thinks it will be "fine" and there is nothing they can do about it. 3) DO this. Read destiny's post. Now look at every single question djwheat asked destiny. They were all completely irrelevant. But the argument is that it doesn't matter if sc2 numbers are stagnant and not growing because esport views is up and that is what matters. SC2 will continue to be successful as long as esports is successful because its the only RTS right now.. Thats the argument.. So DJwheat pointing out that the numbers are in fact growing just being spread out over multiple games and a ton of tournaments is a very important and valid point. Halo, Counter Strike, and Call of Duty are THE FPS games, and they aren't immune from getting dropped by tournaments. Just because there is only one RTS doesn't mean it is safe from the chopping block. If there are no viewers it will die. As long as SC2 is the only RTS it's very unlikely that there will be no viewers. At most a little less.
I definitely agree. Sc2 will maintain a decent niche, as it differentiates it self from the moba games. However, that doesn't mean it won't decline (though I think Destiny is overly pessimitic regarding the negative growth rate).
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I'm on Incontrol, Idra and Wheat's side. Destiny's fanbase will support him unconditionally, but notice how the people supporting destiny in this thread have like 19 posts. I do too, but these doomsayers probably won't be a part of the sc scene next week, they'll be following whatever drama's out there.
Long live SC
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On October 25 2012 02:46 Hider wrote:
What? How exactly does sc2 benefit by LOL having more viewers and sc2 fewer viewers?
The thing is, DJwheat looks at this from a different perspective. He is just happy that esports is growing, which is fine, but irrelevant in this debate. Destiny wants sc2 to grow, Idra has given up, and Incontrol talked about alot of stuff.
So when people talk about the numbers in this debate, it should be clear that those are sc2-specific (given the context), but it seems DJwheat completely missed that point.
I giggled at little at the part about claiming Destiny wants sc2 to grow.
More on point though, I think you completely missed the point. They openly stated that numbers are down for SC2 currently and that with the expansion coming out you will see them go back up. The point he made about the nonstop growth of e-sports is that the viewership is still out there, it's just not currently on wings of liberty due to it being more difficult/not free to play/a little stale. To prove any of it, all you really have to do is wait and see.
Also did you by chance catch the Live on Three where Scoots laid it out nicely about viewer numbers ratio to number of active players? I would assume overall numbers matters more than percentage of players, in terms of viewership to most sponsors, but it's interesting none the less.
I feel like a lot of the people ragequit this episode of ITG the same time Destiny did, because they seem to be missing out on quite a bit of what happened.
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On October 25 2012 02:55 MacNaughty wrote:
I'm on Incontrol, Idra and Wheat's side. Destiny's fanbase will support him unconditionally, but notice how the people supporting destiny in this thread have like 19 posts. I do too, but these doomsayers probably won't be a part of the sc scene next week, they'll be following whatever drama's out there.
Long live SC
The sooner him and his cult leave the scene and move on to w/e he will inevitably fail at next, the better
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EPT
