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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
On April 30 2011 10:51 MadCatZ wrote: quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset (1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1) I would say no one has passed him yet. MVP is in Code A so yeah... | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On April 30 2011 12:50 sjschmidt93 wrote: I would say no one has passed him yet. MVP is in Code A so yeah... MVP falling to code A was a long time ago during his slump... since then he's won the WC and he's cruising through code A while MC's achievements have been both up and down. Won copenhagen, but also got knocked out of code S by polt, and got knocked out of TSL 3, lost to Ret in NASL. He definitely isn't as clear cut since his 2nd GSL championship when everyone else around seemed to be doing bad. | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
On April 30 2011 10:51 MadCatZ wrote: quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset (1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1) He definitely has some of the best results; 2 GSLs, Dreamhack, Copenhagen.. | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
Foreigners that might come close would be WhiteRa, Dimaga, Naniwa, and Idra, but lets be honest victories in the korean scene are more prestigous than those in the west (at least for now). That being said despite MC being the best SC2 player in the world, he's by no means invincible. He's suffered several defeats in the GSL, TSL, and NASL. I think SC2 is too young for bonjwas, but MC is the closest we've got. | ||
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erin[go]bragh
United States815 Posts
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mytent
United States156 Posts
now.. erm. not so sure. especially not with his most recent sets of results. so to say what he's saying.. i lolled. =] | ||
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moargas
31 Posts
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G3CKO
Canada1430 Posts
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On April 30 2011 12:53 Itsmedudeman wrote: MVP falling to code A was a long time ago during his slump... since then he's won the WC and he's cruising through code A while MC's achievements have been both up and down. Won copenhagen, but also got knocked out of code S by polt, and got knocked out of TSL 3, lost to Ret in NASL. He definitely isn't as clear cut since his 2nd GSL championship when everyone else around seemed to be doing bad. MVP also got knocked out of TSL 3 (earlier than MC, I might add), so I don't know how you thought that would be a fair point to make. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:15 HolyArrow wrote: MVP also got knocked out of TSL 3 (earlier than MC, I might add), so I don't know how you thought that would be a fair point to make. because again that was a long time ago? thought this was obvious... All the losses MVP incurred were during the same period of around 2 weeks where he was in the slump and since then he's looking to be like his old self still too early for bonjwa status though , back when MVP was in his prime it looked like no one could even take a game off him considering he only dropped 1 game in his GSL run and 1 game in his long gainward tournament run, but now it seems like anyone is capable of taking at least a game off him in a boX same with MC when he won his 4th GSL albeit he didn't really beat the best players in that tournament considering there were so many upsets in the ro32 | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts. SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros. I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:17 Itsmedudeman wrote: because again that was a long time ago? thought this was obvious... All the losses MVP occurred were during the same period of around 2 weeks where he was in the slump and since then he's looking to be like his old self So, you're basically saying that getting knocked out of a tournament earlier than a different player somehow works in the favor of the player that got knocked out earlier when you compare their skill levels? What? Oh, and okay, sure - MVP was in a slump then, just as MC could be in a slump now. Still don't see your point - they're both slumping, just at different times. As it stands now, MC and MVP both have two GSL wins (though the WC win I would argue is slightly less laudable than a normal GSL win since it was a shorter tournament), while MC has also had more international success than MVP (though, to be fair, MVP isn't as popular as MC overseas so he doesn't get invited to stuff that MC does). Overall, MC still appears to be in the lead. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:17 Itsmedudeman wrote: still too early for bonjwa status though , back when MVP was in his prime it looked like no one could even take a game off him considering he only dropped 1 game in his GSL run and 1 game in his long gainward tournament run, but now it seems like anyone is capable of taking at least a game off him in a boX same with MC when he won his 4th GSL albeit he didn't really beat the best players in that tournament considering there were so many upsets in the ro32 No one is talking about bonjwas. Don't know where that statement came from. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
I was saying that MC was considered the best player back then, but that was relatively a long time ago where a lot of stuff has happened since then anyways, it's highly debated who is the best right now because even though MC has had more success,because he's been in more tournaments, he certainly isn't looking to be the "superior player" over MVP currently. Just because you take more shots and convert on 40% of them doesn't mean you're as good as the player who shoots less shots but makes 50% realize that MVP hasn't lost a BoX since entering the GSL WCs, and he did relatively well in the GSTL, eventually losing to MMA but getting a 3 kill and 2 kills prior to that | ||
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:23 TedJustice wrote: I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over. But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts. SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros. I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though. Tbh,Flash is like 10000x better than boxer/nada/july when they switched to sc2, whether be it macro/gamesense. Though he would lose here and there due to BO losses and such. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:32 thoradycus wrote: Tbh,Flash is like 10000x better than boxer/nada/july when they switched to sc2, whether be it macro/gamesense. That may be true, but it's still a different game and they'd need to learn a lot more than most people think. At the very least I'd say it would take him a month. | ||
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mikyaJ
1834 Posts
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: -Does the lack of success of  NesTea,  MVP, during their BW careers mean Flash, Jaedong,  Stork and Bisu would dominate SC2 if they switched?MVP was very successful in BW, was in the Top 20 players when he switched. And NesTea wasn't that bad, much, much better than Iron and Clare though | ||
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
On April 30 2011 11:32 infinity2k9 wrote: What's arrogant about it. His statement just consists of facts. I dunno how you can say this. MVP is the technically better player because he would definitely beat the others head to head even if those players were at their peaks. So skillwise alone yes he is the better player. MVP played NaDa in broodwar In october of 2008, in a proleague match and lost. That alone discredits the statement your making that he would "definitely beat the others head to head" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79813 | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:32 Itsmedudeman wrote: different paragraph, different tangent..? I was saying that MC was considered the best player back then, but that was relatively a long time ago where a lot of stuff has happened since then anyways, it's highly debated who is the best right now because even though MC has had more success,because he's been in more tournaments, he certainly isn't looking to be the "superior player" over MVP currently. Just because you take more shots and convert on 40% of them doesn't mean you're as good as the player who shoots less shots but makes 50% Your last paragraph makes a good point with the shots analogy, but I argue that more shots shows a clearer picture. MC has also had plenty of success in international tournaments (getting knocked out by Thorzain's ridiculous TvP isn't something to be ashamed of), especially the LAN tournaments where he has an almost perfect (if not perfect) record, if I recall correctly (I speak of the Dreamhack invitational and Copenhagen, to be specific). It's not like MC is just going to every international tournament around and performing crappy in most of them - he's consistently doing very well, if not winning outright. I don't really count his loss in the NASL because top Koreans overall don't seem to be doing as well in the NASL for some reason, so it wouldn't be fair to single out MC (this could be due to how they have to play matches at 4am, lag issues, or whatever - I've observed a trend of Koreans simply doing worse in international online tournaments than they seem to do at LANs, but that's a discussion for a different topic). | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On April 30 2011 13:38 eXigent. wrote: MVP played NaDa in broodwar In october of 2008, in a proleague match and lost. That alone discredits the statement your making that he would "definitely beat the others head to head" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=79813 how does a game 3 years ago prove anything exactly? talking about when they switched over for SC2 which was like in 2010 | ||
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