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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 30 2011 03:13 Euclid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:09 rysecake wrote:On April 30 2011 02:35 Playguuu wrote:
So can we not even hatch first now or is that just asking to be hardcore punished? I love this mentality. I love the mentality when T and P players think that an early hatch is some kind of "economic cheese" that deserves to be punished. Zerg needs the extra base just to keep up in production. Get Real.
You need the extra hatch to keep up with larval count for production. What you don't need is 60+ drones 5 minutes into the game, which for some reason is what most zergs think they're entitled to have. I'm a random player though.
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On April 30 2011 03:13 Euclid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:09 rysecake wrote:On April 30 2011 02:35 Playguuu wrote:
So can we not even hatch first now or is that just asking to be hardcore punished? I love this mentality. I love the mentality when T and P players think that an early hatch is some kind of "economic cheese" that deserves to be punished. Zerg needs the extra base just to keep up in production. Get Real.
It's interesting that you both are so convinced that the answer to the question "should hatch first be a risk?" is so obvious - especially since established pros are unable to agree on the issue. I'm sure you guys understand something they don't.
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On April 30 2011 03:13 Euclid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:09 rysecake wrote:On April 30 2011 02:35 Playguuu wrote:
So can we not even hatch first now or is that just asking to be hardcore punished? I love this mentality. I love the mentality when T and P players think that an early hatch is some kind of "economic cheese" that deserves to be punished. Zerg needs the extra base just to keep up in production. Get Real.
That doesn't mean it should be completely safe vs any cheese or hardcore aggression. And if someone insists on heavy zealot pressure....just get roaches a bit faster.
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On April 30 2011 03:07 SC.Shifty wrote:
I'm not gonna sift through 127 pages, perhaps this has been adressed but:
Is the ghost change really a buff?
Terran in 8"% of most late game situations where alot of back and forth action has occurred, Terran is so extremely mineral deprived, like a 1:10 ratio in minerals to gas.
This will make it even harder to dump gas for T in this certain scenario, not like T even dumped gas in ghosts late game anyway.
On the other hand, I guess it's a buff in a more standard game where T is comfortable, without stating the obvious
I guess it depends on your game style, but for my experience and the majority of games i see i dont think terran is mineral deprived in mid to late and super late game.
Having 2-3 orbitals gives an absurd amount of minerals. Let's say you want 4 ghosts:
600min 600 gas now
800min 400 gas with the new patch
while the extra 200min is not a big deal the amount of gas needed is still high enough to consider it a big vespene investment.
I personally think its a cute buff, i'm happy. 
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 30 2011 03:07 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:58 flyingbangus wrote:
LOL I actually try to avoid whining as much as possible. If you look at my post, it was triggered by Despicatus' post about enabling Protoss to pressure Zerg. Like I said, protoss needs more early game options, right? kidding? one of the most threatening early options is nerfed, this will enable Zerg do macro like hard until Warpgates are done, that should give you enough Larva for another Round of Units/Drones. How is P supposed to keep up against a Macrozerg style if we can't even pressure somehow to limit economic growth alittle.
kidding? Have you seen a Protoss turtle on 2/3 base and not push out until 200/200? IMO it's the MacroToss that needs to be dealt economic damage to prevent the deathball from forming.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 30 2011 03:13 SilverJohnny wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:58 flyingbangus wrote:On April 30 2011 02:25 SilverJohnny wrote:On April 30 2011 02:18 flyingbangus wrote:On April 29 2011 20:15 Despicatus wrote:
I really like the shorter Building time for Protoss since this should enable P to pressure the Zerg in the early game and therefore enabeling Protoss to take map control (at least untill Ling Speed is done) and force more units from Zerg in General, because you wont be safe in general untill warpgate is done. Also this will make Hatch first way more risky, since it should be an autoloss against double proxy gates.
Yes, Protoss needs more early game options to hurt Zerg. This way, Protoss can enter mid and late game with a much needed advantage, right? So, what is a zerg supposed to do with a protoss that does a gas-less 2 gate pressure while expanding behind it? Or even better, a protoss proxy-gate-into-expand on larger maps where they can easily do a make-shift wall of gateways and/or forges in time to nullify slowlings? You can't even hatch first in ZvP unless you're confident in your drone micro AND you know that the mineral line can't be blocked off by pylons. Now we also have to worry about chronoboosted zealots. somewhere near my base. Sweet! Hmmm, maybe I'll keep on practicing gas-steal-into-2base-baneling-bust. At least I have a 50% chance of winning when there are only 1 or 2 sentries in play. make some spines and slowlings, get ling speed and/or roaches, toss gas (and therefore stalker/sentry) will be later which will allow either speedlings or roaches to harass an expand. A lot of toss will try 2gating every game i'm sure, i'm kind of looking forward to it tbh, since a normal gas/pool or pool/gas should be able to hold it, and you can expand pretty quickly yourself. If you look at it from a perspective other than "omg z so weak what do!?!?" then you'll see its not as huge a deal as many people want to make it. Yes, proxies will be stronger, but if they fail you'll be in just as strong a position as you would have been prepatch. EDIT: looking at your edits I can see that you're just a balance whiner, so nvm. live in your fantasy world where z should be able to hatch first every game in all MU's and never get punished for it, I'll keep playing a real game where actions have consequences. LOL I actually try to avoid whining as much as possible. If you look at my post, it was triggered by Despicatus' post about enabling Protoss to pressure Zerg. Like I said, protoss needs more early game options, right? + Show Spoiler +Hell, I literally spend more time analyzing my ZvP replays than actually laddering lately. But hey, if you want to lump me in with the whiners, go right ahead. Oh, I'm not saying a Z should be able to hatch first on all MU's. With the exception of ZvT on a large map (even then, I expect bunker shenanigans), I normally open 14gas/14pool. It's when a Protoss can put down his Nexus before you AND wall-off in time to nullify lings that's got me scratching my head. + Show Spoiler +Do I go for a roach/ling or ling/bling bust and let his sentry micro dictate whether or not I win? Or do I get a quick third (not possible on some maps) and hope that I get enough queens and/or spores AND creep spread to deal with stargate tech? All of this while constantly checking that the nexus isn't cancelled to do a nice 4/5 gate push (most likely with +1 atk). Hopefully I'm wrong, but on larger maps, it seems that proxying 1 gate AND walling off the nat seems to be doable. Force lings and crawlerswhile happily probing behind wall. Sorry, it did come across as a bit whiny though, what with the talk about having to allin to get a 50% winrate and such. I play random, and from the toss side of the MU, if I don't FFE currently I feel way behind, and FFE isn't doable on some maps, so yeah. being able to have the threat of 2gate will help reduce that pressure, especially on maps like Xel'naga or some of the other ladder maps where FFE is near impossible to hold. but if I do 2gate there are some severe weaknesses associated with it, such as the possibility of roach busts or sling runbys before i get a decent sentry count. Hell if my 2gate does little-no damage i'd be way behind to the point where a Z could expand again and do a little pressure at my front. Toss is really limited in early game options now as it stands, I think having 2gate there is pretty good for a lot of reasons. As for the Z side, I think you're overthinking it a bit and imagining that toss can do a lot more than they can. If you see a toss 2gate you know, I repeat KNOW, that he'll have delayed tech. You could roach bust, hydra bust, expand, tech, basically whatever as soon as you hold the 2gate, and be basically safe from a lot of other openers. Plus if he's 2gating, your ovie will have free reign in his base longer, allowing you to see what tech path he's thinking of going. I don't think any sort of proxy shenanigans will be too strong, seeing as how the costs involved and the lack of tech will be more detrimental 1 pylo + 1gate + 1zeal is 350 mins another pylo at home, plus a forge, cannon, and gate to wall off + nex is 1050!! this is assuming he proxies 1gate, makes 1 zeal from it, and in the mean time is immediately throwing up a nex and all the other stuff, and that he cuts probes and doesn't gas. thats quite a bit of money for trying to deny a hatch first, and looking at the raw math it hardly seems worth it when a few slowlings + queen can stop it and the z can expo/counter easily before sentries are out in any meaningful number. I guess the TL;DR would basically be that we don't know how it will play out, but P having a really strong early game pressure option like 2rax for terran or 10pool for z is good for the game and there is a ton of strat involved in it that people aren't thinking about imo. EDIT: Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:13 Euclid wrote:On April 30 2011 03:09 rysecake wrote:On April 30 2011 02:35 Playguuu wrote:
So can we not even hatch first now or is that just asking to be hardcore punished? I love this mentality. I love the mentality when T and P players think that an early hatch is some kind of "economic cheese" that deserves to be punished LOL. Zerg needs the extra base just to keep up in production. Get Real. lol, this isn't sc1. z doesn't have to really have that hatch nearly as badly since we have these cool units called queens that give us more larva than another hatch would, and they're cheaper! revolutionary, right! besides, what a boring game it would be when z can hatch first every single game and no one else can do anything about it.
Good point on the mineral count - it does add up, something I didn't consider. While a single timely zealot can easily kill drones or deny mining on a hatch first zerg, drones *can* be microed 1 by 1 until lings and/or queens pop out.
I disagree though with not needing a second hatch, unless you're doing a 1base all-in.
Anyway, I should stop posting in this thread. All that time thinking and typing are better off used watching replays =)
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This is such an amazing patch, everything looks perfect, and i am saying this as a protoss player, who understands the imbalance of the 4gate.
one thing i don't understand is the ghost buff. i mean WTF?!!? it's obvious HTs needed to get nerfed, but in all honesty they got nerfed way too hard... and now ghosts are getting a buff? i rarely find a situation where i want to use hts nowadays, and i will literally just never use them unless its super meta game now.
also, this is gonna make phoenix openings that much worse, which is kinda fine since it doesn't need to be a standard opening, but hts are the only other endgame besides collosi, and i'm tired of colli, every race just prepares for them blindly now.
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I really worry about this patch for Protoss...it would seem like making units for toss out of gateways is so much more of a risk than it is for other races, both Terran and Zerg have more units but they are weak...a stalker at 2 mins in the game is like a third of your army..making a zealot 30 seconds ago as compared to a sentry 30 mins ago could really cost you the game...and honestly a 4 gates will still happen it will just be slightly less potent as the units will have to run across the map rather than warp in right on the spot...I see this working in pvp, not workin in the other match ups
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for Toss, its worth noting that Sentries can, in theory, come out even faster now. Even beyond Zealot cheese, thats something to be excited about--with Sentries, each second earlier you get them, the better they are.
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On April 30 2011 03:40 flyingbangus wrote:
kidding? Have you seen a Protoss turtle on 2/3 base and not push out until 200/200? IMO it's the MacroToss that needs to be dealt economic damage to prevent the deathball from forming.
you don't realize why this is so are you?
a Protoss can't afford to trade armies in a macro game against a smart zerg who trades gas cheap units against high gas units from Protoss. You will never be able to safely secure a 3rd/4rd with low unit counts thus beeing outmacrod in the end anyway with inferior army and tech cause you will need to constantly replace gas high units.
if we could play less turtle, while beeing successful we would, but we can't cause our units need to be together to be cost effective at all.
This obviously limits us in playing either over defensiv or offensiv.
If Zerg Production/Larva mechanic wasn't as insane as it is we wouldn't be forced to so hard timing attacks or Deathball all-ins. But it is how it is by design.
the moment Zerg players adapt to this Protoss will again have a very hard time competeing in PvZ
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On April 30 2011 04:18 Werk wrote:
I really worry about this patch for Protoss...it would seem like making units for toss out of gateways is so much more of a risk than it is for other races, both Terran and Zerg have more units but they are weak...a stalker at 2 mins in the game is like a third of your army..making a zealot 30 seconds ago as compared to a sentry 30 mins ago could really cost you the game...and honestly a 4 gates will still happen it will just be slightly less potent as the units will have to run across the map rather than warp in right on the spot...I see this working in pvp, not workin in the other match ups
units are popping out a lot faster, so those units u mentioned that can cost u the game are only going to be there faster, this is a good thing for toss (especially against early pools, 6 pools and ten pools are really hard to deal with if microed correctly, but now ur early game units get out faster).
I always feel like during the earliest stages of the game i'm super confined to my base as toss, this might even give room for some early pressure (not game ending, but pressure atleast).
and all that it means is that 4gates aren't going to be stupidly deadly. ruined pvp, and while it's defend-able, i still think it's too powerful against the other races. 4gate is still an option, but ur probably going to make more probes while warp research finishes, so it will be less all in, less powerful, and less cheesey, this will probably even demote a few nubs that deserve it. too bad they'll have to learn to play 
still hts endangered last patch, after this one they'll be as obscure as the carrier =(
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On April 30 2011 04:32 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:40 flyingbangus wrote:
kidding? Have you seen a Protoss turtle on 2/3 base and not push out until 200/200? IMO it's the MacroToss that needs to be dealt economic damage to prevent the deathball from forming.
you don't realize why this is so are you? a Protoss can't afford to trade armies in a macro game against a smart zerg who trades gas cheap units against high gas units from Protoss. You will never be able to safely secure a 3rd/4rd with low unit counts thus beeing outmacrod in the end anyway with inferior army and tech cause you will need to constantly replace gas high units. if we could play less turtle, while beeing successful we would, but we can't cause our units need to be together to be cost effective at all. This obviously limits us in playing either over defensiv or offensiv. If Zerg Production/Larva mechanic wasn't as insane as it is we wouldn't be forced to so hard timing attacks or Deathball all-ins. But it is how it is by design. the moment Zerg players adapt to this Protoss will again have a very hard time competeing in PvZ
Zerg use more gas than protoss. That doesn't mean they cost more gas (they don't; except the hive units) but it means the zerg need to outnumber the protoss (and still lose ) then replenish again and again and again.
It adds up to the point where zerg has absolutely no gas at all even when sitting on 6 bases. I've seen this in so many prolevel tournaments and experienced it myself.
Again, just because the protoss units in average have higher gas cost doens't mean they use more gas in the end. Also they cost more gas for a reason, they are much stronger units than zerg.
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On April 30 2011 03:21 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:13 Euclid wrote:On April 30 2011 03:09 rysecake wrote:On April 30 2011 02:35 Playguuu wrote:
So can we not even hatch first now or is that just asking to be hardcore punished? I love this mentality. I love the mentality when T and P players think that an early hatch is some kind of "economic cheese" that deserves to be punished. Zerg needs the extra base just to keep up in production. Get Real. It's interesting that you both are so convinced that the answer to the question "should hatch first be a risk?" is so obvious - especially since established pros are unable to agree on the issue. I'm sure you guys understand something they don't.
Most zergs do hatch first in every matchup except zvz on close rush maps.
Its just pro protoss/terran will block expos and force you to pool.
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i play zerg and this is all nice changes, i wont say rank , iccup level or which name of mine is in some esl ladder.
The z vs p matchup is rather fair void the fact of the threat of warpgate allins, 4gate, 3ate robo etc. All of which require gas! Around 14food,
Were just going to have to respond via roaches/banes or cralwer all can work of 9drones for constant production. A 9scout will see at correct time.
Dont confuse the simple fact, protos has to pressure you otherwise, boom!
Later warpgates means you can scout and have map travel distance to defend.
Map are larger alot larger.
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when archons are massive,one archon per one warp prism?
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On April 30 2011 07:57 Cryhavoc wrote:
when archons are massive,one archon per one warp prism?
I'm sure the capacity has to do with the food of the unit, not its classification
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On April 30 2011 05:00 R3N wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 04:32 freetgy wrote:On April 30 2011 03:40 flyingbangus wrote:
kidding? Have you seen a Protoss turtle on 2/3 base and not push out until 200/200? IMO it's the MacroToss that needs to be dealt economic damage to prevent the deathball from forming.
you don't realize why this is so are you? a Protoss can't afford to trade armies in a macro game against a smart zerg who trades gas cheap units against high gas units from Protoss. You will never be able to safely secure a 3rd/4rd with low unit counts thus beeing outmacrod in the end anyway with inferior army and tech cause you will need to constantly replace gas high units. if we could play less turtle, while beeing successful we would, but we can't cause our units need to be together to be cost effective at all. This obviously limits us in playing either over defensiv or offensiv. If Zerg Production/Larva mechanic wasn't as insane as it is we wouldn't be forced to so hard timing attacks or Deathball all-ins. But it is how it is by design. the moment Zerg players adapt to this Protoss will again have a very hard time competeing in PvZ Zerg use more gas than protoss. That doesn't mean they cost more gas (they don't; except the hive units) but it means the zerg need to outnumber the protoss (and still lose ) then replenish again and again and again. It adds up to the point where zerg has absolutely no gas at all even when sitting on 6 bases. I've seen this in so many prolevel tournaments and experienced it myself. Again, just because the protoss units in average have higher gas cost doens't mean they use more gas in the end. Also they cost more gas for a reason, they are much stronger units than zerg.
I would argue that this isn't true in any situation until endgame. As I'm certain you know, playing Zerg, Corruptors are simply garbage against Colossi. However, they are quite expensive on gas (the same amount as a muta I believe) but have no use except to straight-up attack the Colossus. You really need about 4 per Colossus to bring them down in any sort of reasonable fashion, so I could easily see how Zerg needs more gas endgame.
However, before that 200/200 composition, Protoss is probably going to have more gas invested in the army than Zerg. 8 Roaches will trade with a huge advantage to the Roaches against 5 Stalkers, yet the 5 Stalkers cost 50 gas more and 25 minerals more. Hydras behind Roaches will trade well against most armies without Sentries (and Sentries cost ridiculous amounts of gas to have in large numbers).
A 3-gate expand, for Protoss, spends about 500-800 gas on units, while a Zerg army that can defeat it costs far less (if you spend 800 gas on Roaches, you'll have 32 of them, which will kick the crap out of 8 sentries and 2 Zealots). Until supply becomes an issue, Zerg is usually able to trade with less gas than their Protoss opponents.
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On April 30 2011 04:38 SxYSpAz wrote:
still hts endangered last patch, after this one they'll be as obscure as the carrier =(
Please explain. This patch is a direct buff to HT usage against Terran. I believe that it is a very wise compensation for removing the amulet.
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On April 30 2011 08:44 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 04:38 SxYSpAz wrote:
still hts endangered last patch, after this one they'll be as obscure as the carrier =( Please explain. This patch is a direct buff to HT usage against Terran. I believe that it is a very wise compensation for removing the amulet.
i don't kno how this helps HTs at all, i think they over nerfed HTs really hard, and now ghosts cost 200/100 instead of 150/150, which IMO, and i think most ppl would agree, is a buff. Terran is a lot more mineral heavy than gas heavy since they have mules, so it's really tailored to a terrans resources, they don't have to worry about sacking tech time, upgrades or other gas heavy units to get ghosts out
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On April 30 2011 08:11 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 05:00 R3N wrote:On April 30 2011 04:32 freetgy wrote:On April 30 2011 03:40 flyingbangus wrote:
kidding? Have you seen a Protoss turtle on 2/3 base and not push out until 200/200? IMO it's the MacroToss that needs to be dealt economic damage to prevent the deathball from forming.
you don't realize why this is so are you? a Protoss can't afford to trade armies in a macro game against a smart zerg who trades gas cheap units against high gas units from Protoss. You will never be able to safely secure a 3rd/4rd with low unit counts thus beeing outmacrod in the end anyway with inferior army and tech cause you will need to constantly replace gas high units. if we could play less turtle, while beeing successful we would, but we can't cause our units need to be together to be cost effective at all. This obviously limits us in playing either over defensiv or offensiv. If Zerg Production/Larva mechanic wasn't as insane as it is we wouldn't be forced to so hard timing attacks or Deathball all-ins. But it is how it is by design. the moment Zerg players adapt to this Protoss will again have a very hard time competeing in PvZ Zerg use more gas than protoss. That doesn't mean they cost more gas (they don't; except the hive units) but it means the zerg need to outnumber the protoss (and still lose ) then replenish again and again and again. It adds up to the point where zerg has absolutely no gas at all even when sitting on 6 bases. I've seen this in so many prolevel tournaments and experienced it myself. Again, just because the protoss units in average have higher gas cost doens't mean they use more gas in the end. Also they cost more gas for a reason, they are much stronger units than zerg. I would argue that this isn't true in any situation until endgame. As I'm certain you know, playing Zerg, Corruptors are simply garbage against Colossi. However, they are quite expensive on gas (the same amount as a muta I believe) but have no use except to straight-up attack the Colossus. You really need about 4 per Colossus to bring them down in any sort of reasonable fashion, so I could easily see how Zerg needs more gas endgame. However, before that 200/200 composition, Protoss is probably going to have more gas invested in the army than Zerg. 8 Roaches will trade with a huge advantage to the Roaches against 5 Stalkers, yet the 5 Stalkers cost 50 gas more and 25 minerals more. Hydras behind Roaches will trade well against most armies without Sentries (and Sentries cost ridiculous amounts of gas to have in large numbers). A 3-gate expand, for Protoss, spends about 500-800 gas on units, while a Zerg army that can defeat it costs far less (if you spend 800 gas on Roaches, you'll have 32 of them, which will kick the crap out of 8 sentries and 2 Zealots). Until supply becomes an issue, Zerg is usually able to trade with less gas than their Protoss opponents.
I would argue that gas is an extremly hard to get resource for Zerg in the early game. You can only afford 1 gas before having 30 or so drones unless you want to go all-in on one base. And most 1-base all-ins can easily be stopped by P and T.
I don't have an issue with the late game as Zerg and I think its rather balanced if both get there with decent economy. I do think Protoss has far better timings to kill Zerg before late game though and this patch doesn't change anything. Essentially 4wg was traded for 1g exp, 2g or 2g + tech timings. In fact 4wg will still be an option but will come later, imagine a 2-gate rush followed up with a 4wg.
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Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%.
lol I remember this guy started arguing with me once on how Salvage was not overpowered and will never be nerfed, ah biased Terrans just got proved wrong. I am going to have to relearn PvP all over again, they took out both the Korean 4 gate and made 4 gate not the standard build anymore.
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EPT
