EPTPatch 1.3.3 PTR - Page 127
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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong. It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. | ||
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Odogg
United States2 Posts
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Cutlery
Norway565 Posts
Protoss already can expand faster than Z on quite a few maps. Early zealot or stalker pressure forces speedling opening and spine at ramp just to be safe, which protoss can probably expand behind off of 2 gates. Chrono units instead of warp tech, and the food count will probably be higher off of 2 gates than what we are used to off of 3. I feel it completely breaks close spawn. Maybe 3 drone harass to keep the 2gate from going down within reasonable time becomes mandatory, with the possibility of breaking your own game right then and there. Protoss completely dominates close spawn with delaying an expansion off of showing a 4gate, but atleast for 6 minutes I can drone! and FE is favourable to non-FE vs 4gate! Now the unit production must start as soon as 2gate is detected, and can never stop until protoss expands. With such quick stalkers and zealots off of low-budget production buildings, the toss can probably keep my drone count below 15 for 8-9-10 minutes, when he decides to expand. This is much stronger than a 2rax. I can totally see this change getting reverted in patch 1.4 after alot of close spawn qq | ||
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Despicatus
34 Posts
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flyingbangus
United States121 Posts
On April 29 2011 20:15 Despicatus wrote: I really like the shorter Building time for Protoss since this should enable P to pressure the Zerg in the early game and therefore enabeling Protoss to take map control (at least untill Ling Speed is done) and force more units from Zerg in General, because you wont be safe in general untill warpgate is done. Also this will make Hatch first way more risky, since it should be an autoloss against double proxy gates. Yes, Protoss needs more early game options to hurt Zerg. This way, Protoss can enter mid and late game with a much needed advantage, right? So, what is a zerg supposed to do with a protoss that does a gas-less 2 gate pressure while expanding behind it? Or even better, a protoss proxy-gate-into-expand on larger maps where they can easily do a make-shift wall of gateways and/or forges in time to nullify slowlings? You can't even hatch first in ZvP unless you're confident in your drone micro AND you know that the mineral line can't be blocked off by pylons. Now we also have to worry about chronoboosted zealots. somewhere near my base. Sweet! Hmmm, maybe I'll keep on practicing gas-steal-into-2base-baneling-bust. At least I have a 50% chance of winning when there are only 1 or 2 sentries in play. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On April 29 2011 15:48 udgnim wrote: Blizzard already set a precedent with this when they the patch that required a supply depot/pylon to be built before barracks/gateway You can't possibly build a gateway before a pylon. | ||
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SilverJohnny
United States885 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:18 flyingbangus wrote: Yes, Protoss needs more early game options to hurt Zerg. This way, Protoss can enter mid and late game with a much needed advantage, right? So, what is a zerg supposed to do with a protoss that does a gas-less 2 gate pressure while expanding behind it? Or even better, a protoss proxy-gate-into-expand on larger maps where they can easily do a make-shift wall of gateways and/or forges in time to nullify slowlings? You can't even hatch first in ZvP unless you're confident in your drone micro AND you know that the mineral line can't be blocked off by pylons. Now we also have to worry about chronoboosted zealots. somewhere near my base. Sweet! Hmmm, maybe I'll keep on practicing gas-steal-into-2base-baneling-bust. At least I have a 50% chance of winning when there are only 1 or 2 sentries in play. make some spines and slowlings, get ling speed and/or roaches, toss gas (and therefore stalker/sentry) will be later which will allow either speedlings or roaches to harass an expand. A lot of toss will try 2gating every game i'm sure, i'm kind of looking forward to it tbh, since a normal gas/pool or pool/gas should be able to hold it, and you can expand pretty quickly yourself. If you look at it from a perspective other than "omg z so weak what do!?!?" then you'll see its not as huge a deal as many people want to make it. Yes, proxies will be stronger, but if they fail you'll be in just as strong a position as you would have been prepatch. EDIT: looking at your edits I can see that you're just a balance whiner, so nvm. live in your fantasy world where z should be able to hatch first every game in all MU's and never get punished for it, I'll keep playing a real game where actions have consequences. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:18 flyingbangus wrote: Yes, Protoss needs more early game options to hurt Zerg. This way, Protoss can enter mid and late game with a much needed advantage, right? So, what is a zerg supposed to do with a protoss that does a gas-less 2 gate pressure while expanding behind it? Or even better, a protoss proxy-gate-into-expand on larger maps where they can easily do a make-shift wall of gateways and/or forges in time to nullify slowlings? make a roach den and win the game? | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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flyingbangus
United States121 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:25 SilverJohnny wrote: make some spines and slowlings, get ling speed and/or roaches, toss gas (and therefore stalker/sentry) will be later which will allow either speedlings or roaches to harass an expand. A lot of toss will try 2gating every game i'm sure, i'm kind of looking forward to it tbh, since a normal gas/pool or pool/gas should be able to hold it, and you can expand pretty quickly yourself. If you look at it from a perspective other than "omg z so weak what do!?!?" then you'll see its not as huge a deal as many people want to make it. Yes, proxies will be stronger, but if they fail you'll be in just as strong a position as you would have been prepatch. EDIT: looking at your edits I can see that you're just a balance whiner, so nvm. live in your fantasy world where z should be able to hatch first every game in all MU's and never get punished for it, I'll keep playing a real game where actions have consequences. LOL I actually try to avoid whining as much as possible. If you look at my post, it was triggered by Despicatus' post about enabling Protoss to pressure Zerg. Like I said, protoss needs more early game options, right? + Show Spoiler + Hell, I literally spend more time analyzing my ZvP replays than actually laddering lately. But hey, if you want to lump me in with the whiners, go right ahead. Oh, I'm not saying a Z should be able to hatch first on all MU's. With the exception of ZvT on a large map (even then, I expect bunker shenanigans), I normally open 14gas/14pool. It's when a Protoss can put down his Nexus before you AND wall-off in time to nullify lings that's got me scratching my head. + Show Spoiler + Do I go for a roach/ling or ling/bling bust and let his sentry micro dictate whether or not I win? Or do I get a quick third (not possible on some maps) and hope that I get enough queens and/or spores AND creep spread to deal with stargate tech? All of this while constantly checking that the nexus isn't cancelled to do a nice 4/5 gate push (most likely with +1 atk). Hopefully I'm wrong, but on larger maps, it seems that proxying 1 gate AND walling off the nat seems to be doable. Force lings and crawlers while happily probing behind wall. | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:35 Playguuu wrote: So can we not even hatch first now or is that just asking to be hardcore punished? You say it like Zerg should be able to auto FE every game without any drawbacks..... | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:58 flyingbangus wrote: LOL I actually try to avoid whining as much as possible. If you look at my post, it was triggered by Despicatus' post about enabling Protoss to pressure Zerg. Like I said, protoss needs more early game options, right? kidding? one of the most threatening early options is nerfed, this will enable Zerg do macro like hard until Warpgates are done, that should give you enough Larva for another Round of Units/Drones. How is P supposed to keep up against a Macrozerg style if we can't even pressure somehow to limit economic growth alittle. | ||
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SC.Shifty
Canada135 Posts
Is the ghost change really a buff? Terran in 80% of most late game situations where alot of back and forth action has occurred, Terran is so extremely mineral deprived, like a 1:10 ratio in minerals to gas. This will make it even harder to dump gas for T in this certain scenario, not like T even dumped gas in ghosts late game anyway. On the other hand, I guess it's a buff in a more standard game where T is comfortable, without stating the obvious Million typos on my phone | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:35 Playguuu wrote: So can we not even hatch first now or is that just asking to be hardcore punished? I love this mentality. Sure why not just give zerg a free expo. Not like it matters or anything.. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On April 29 2011 15:48 udgnim wrote: Blizzard already set a precedent with this when they the patch that required a supply depot/pylon to be built before barracks/gateway Yup, before that patch called Starcraft 1 you could build a Gateway before a pylon.... Forcing depot before rax was not as large of a change as it really only disabled certain cheese, the standard was still depot before rax. I think this change was actually necessary due to the orbital command. With the ability to get a faster OC (and mule), rax before depot was still pretty good economically. I do think good players are upset because this has a bigger effect on the other match-ups than it does in PvP which they didn't feel was broken. I think the pylon range alone would have really fixed the "problem" or maybe (don't know fully about consequences) just not letting pylons power field go up on higher ground. But I really think the whole argument is stupid, some people don't like watching 4-gate vs 4-gate because they don't understand it, but they didn't patch ZvZ in BW because of it. | ||
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Euclid
Canada126 Posts
I love the mentality when T and P players think that an early hatch is some kind of "economic cheese" that deserves to be punished. Zerg needs the extra base just to keep up in production. Get Real. | ||
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SilverJohnny
United States885 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:58 flyingbangus wrote: LOL I actually try to avoid whining as much as possible. If you look at my post, it was triggered by Despicatus' post about enabling Protoss to pressure Zerg. Like I said, protoss needs more early game options, right? + Show Spoiler + Hell, I literally spend more time analyzing my ZvP replays than actually laddering lately. But hey, if you want to lump me in with the whiners, go right ahead. Oh, I'm not saying a Z should be able to hatch first on all MU's. With the exception of ZvT on a large map (even then, I expect bunker shenanigans), I normally open 14gas/14pool. It's when a Protoss can put down his Nexus before you AND wall-off in time to nullify lings that's got me scratching my head. + Show Spoiler + Do I go for a roach/ling or ling/bling bust and let his sentry micro dictate whether or not I win? Or do I get a quick third (not possible on some maps) and hope that I get enough queens and/or spores AND creep spread to deal with stargate tech? All of this while constantly checking that the nexus isn't cancelled to do a nice 4/5 gate push (most likely with +1 atk). Hopefully I'm wrong, but on larger maps, it seems that proxying 1 gate AND walling off the nat seems to be doable. Force lings and crawlerswhile happily probing behind wall. Sorry, it did come across as a bit whiny though, what with the talk about having to allin to get a 50% winrate and such. I play random, and from the toss side of the MU, if I don't FFE currently I feel way behind, and FFE isn't doable on some maps, so yeah. being able to have the threat of 2gate will help reduce that pressure, especially on maps like Xel'naga or some of the other ladder maps where FFE is near impossible to hold. but if I do 2gate there are some severe weaknesses associated with it, such as the possibility of roach busts or sling runbys before i get a decent sentry count. Hell if my 2gate does little-no damage i'd be way behind to the point where a Z could expand again and do a little pressure at my front. Toss is really limited in early game options now as it stands, I think having 2gate there is pretty good for a lot of reasons. As for the Z side, I think you're overthinking it a bit and imagining that toss can do a lot more than they can. If you see a toss 2gate you know, I repeat KNOW, that he'll have delayed tech. You could roach bust, hydra bust, expand, tech, basically whatever as soon as you hold the 2gate, and be basically safe from a lot of other openers. Plus if he's 2gating, your ovie will have free reign in his base longer, allowing you to see what tech path he's thinking of going. I don't think any sort of proxy shenanigans will be too strong, seeing as how the costs involved and the lack of tech will be more detrimental 1 pylo + 1gate + 1zeal is 350 mins another pylo at home, plus a forge, cannon, and gate to wall off + nex is 1050!! this is assuming he proxies 1gate, makes 1 zeal from it, and in the mean time is immediately throwing up a nex and all the other stuff, and that he cuts probes and doesn't gas. thats quite a bit of money for trying to deny a hatch first, and looking at the raw math it hardly seems worth it when a few slowlings + queen can stop it and the z can expo/counter easily before sentries are out in any meaningful number. I guess the TL;DR would basically be that we don't know how it will play out, but P having a really strong early game pressure option like 2rax for terran or 10pool for z is good for the game and there is a ton of strat involved in it that people aren't thinking about imo. EDIT: On April 30 2011 03:13 Euclid wrote: I love the mentality when T and P players think that an early hatch is some kind of "economic cheese" that deserves to be punished LOL. Zerg needs the extra base just to keep up in production. Get Real. lol, this isn't sc1. z doesn't have to really have that hatch nearly as badly since we have these cool units called queens that give us more larva than another hatch would, and they're cheaper! revolutionary, right! besides, what a boring game it would be when z can hatch first every single game and no one else can do anything about it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 30 2011 03:09 rysecake wrote: I love this mentality. Sure why not just give zerg a free expo. Not like it matters or anything.. Zerg - What do you mean I have to build defending units before I can safely expand?!?!?! Protoss -... Terran - I could have swore I taught him that...my bad. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On April 29 2011 17:50 Cutlery wrote: should they remove close spawns because of the potential of 2gate? in close metal/slag pits/temple it's similar to proxy gating in strength, and alot safer than building proxy. Protoss already can expand faster than Z on quite a few maps. Early zealot or stalker pressure forces speedling opening and spine at ramp just to be safe, which protoss can probably expand behind off of 2 gates. Chrono units instead of warp tech, and the food count will probably be higher off of 2 gates than what we are used to off of 3. I feel it completely breaks close spawn. Maybe 3 drone harass to keep the 2gate from going down within reasonable time becomes mandatory, with the possibility of breaking your own game right then and there. Protoss completely dominates close spawn with delaying an expansion off of showing a 4gate, but atleast for 6 minutes I can drone! and FE is favourable to non-FE vs 4gate! Now the unit production must start as soon as 2gate is detected, and can never stop until protoss expands. With such quick stalkers and zealots off of low-budget production buildings, the toss can probably keep my drone count below 15 for 8-9-10 minutes, when he decides to expand. This is much stronger than a 2rax. I can totally see this change getting reverted in patch 1.4 after alot of close spawn qq yes, resoundingly yes. close pos. is so dumb trying to play a normal game, so i just go something high aggression. | ||
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ckukner
Turkey54 Posts
On April 28 2011 11:05 Bensio wrote: The only nerf that should be bestowed upon fungal is it should be a missile again, as a zerg player myself, its just stupid that i fungal, and there is nothing the opponent can do, no matter how gosu he is about the fact his army is sitting there. Dodge fungals pls  And no matter how gosu the zerg player is he can't do anything against mass forcefields. What is your point? | ||
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