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On April 24 2011 09:12 ReketSomething wrote:
Reading nesteas interview made me upset. What a pansy. I never liked nestea or people that complain like Bisu and Nestea is no difference. True champs are like jaedong. You dont complain about random bullshit but fight to overcome. Saying theres not much left he can do is retarded. Theres always more to do, especially as zerg, the race that you could probably have 1000 apm and not run out of things to do because of the mechanics.
Jaedong has stated in interviews that he's been upset with the state of certain matchup's. He doesn't come right out and complain about balance or anything, but he certainly has made it known before that he feels like he's fighting an uphill battle vs certain races.
Even players who are regarded as being extremely mentally tough still have their moments of doubt, and BW is a heck of a lot better off right now than SC2. Nestea has earned the right to speak his mind about this imo. You obviously don't have to agree with him, but he's a highly respected Zerg.
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United States187 Posts
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On April 24 2011 09:48 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 09:12 ReketSomething wrote:
Reading nesteas interview made me upset. What a pansy. I never liked nestea or people that complain like Bisu and Nestea is no difference. True champs are like jaedong. You dont complain about random bullshit but fight to overcome. Saying theres not much left he can do is retarded. Theres always more to do, especially as zerg, the race that you could probably have 1000 apm and not run out of things to do because of the mechanics. Jaedong has stated in interviews that he's been upset with the state of certain matchup's. He doesn't come right out and complain about balance or anything, but he certainly has made it known before that he feels like he's fighting an uphill battle vs certain races. Even players who are regarded as being extremely mentally tough still have their moments of doubt, and BW is a heck of a lot better off right now than SC2. Nestea has earned the right to speak his mind about this imo. You obviously don't have to agree with him, but he's a highly respected Zerg.
Well, to be fair the BW pros can hardly expect a balance patch from Blizzard :\ I don't like that Pros complain about balance because it leads to a lot of whiners feeling validated. But yeah, who am I to talk? Still, I think Blizzard needs to let things settle more before patching
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Jaedong has never said anything like that... even when the interviewer prompts a question like that about a certain map he says it doesn't matter.
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On April 24 2011 10:04 windsupernova wrote:
I don't like that Pros complain about balance because it leads to a lot of whiners feeling validated.
I mean I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but maybe that means some of their concerns are valid and the valid concerns shouldn't just be hit with the day9 brush of disapproval? I mean obviously people are going to whine regardless, but it's just as bad to disregard everything, especially when it's not just random TL forum poster #90210 and is someone who is probably more objectively correct.
I mean i'm not good enough at SC2 to have an opinion and the only zerg I even enjoy watching right now is Spanishiwa and I hope that elements of his style lead to a zerg revolution. I just think it's way too easy to assume that Idra/Nestea/FruitDealer/Morrow/any other top level zerg who's voiced balance concerns repeatedly are not trying to innovate, when in all likelihood they've tried everything, or at the very least some of them have and have decided that whatever it is, isn't viable.
Also balancing doesn't mean a patch necessarily, we can already see how hugely maps effect the dominance of certain races, maybe we need a map with no ledges at all and just one gigantic open area in the middle and maybe that'll fix everything for zerg, but then maps would be awfully boring.
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Took like BW what? A few years before it was really balance? I think we'll see more improvements as time goes on.
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From a viewer's perspective, its becoming really difficult to deny that protoss is favored in ZvP. Comparatively, ZvT and TvP are quite balanced but ZvP can look really gross. Whether thats because of a lack of understanding or imbalance is still up for discussion but the current state is P favored.
Ive read and watched quite a few interviews and it seems like the korean scene feels the same way. (Squirtle, july, fruitdealer, nestea etc etc. It seems like the playxp interviewer seems to bring up zerg's struggles in every zerg interview lol)
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United States187 Posts
On April 24 2011 10:25 billyX333 wrote:
... It seems like the playxp interviewer seems to bring up zerg's struggles in every zerg interview lol
I agree, there is some interviewer bias. Every time I translate, I feel like the guy is leading the players on to say the there is something wrong with the balance.
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On April 24 2011 10:22 nhat wrote:
Took like BW what? A few years before it was really balance? I think we'll see more improvements as time goes on.
People always say this but it's fucking stupid and annoying, you CANNOT compare any aspect of the game to BW at the time. Back then people sucked, all the way up to the top level. Pro's were 100 APM. People literally didn't even have the mechanics to execute strategies that are vital to the balance, things like defilers were not even standard for many years. That's no longer the case, players have come into SC2 WITH 11 years of BW experience to back it up it's not a whole new game it's a sequel. No strategy is out of reach.
Not to mention people didn't even have replays back then, while today strategies spread within days. There's so many people immediately playing competitively that literally every possibility is being tested; innovation is already being limited to very slight changes to build orders. People were not doing this kind of serious refining and tweaking builds for ages in BW.
Plus even after all of this, BW isn't balanced. It's T > Z > P > T, from overall winrates and just what we generally know (a good way to see this is the lack of specialists for certain matchups in the proscene; you got dozens of zergs who are best at zvp, but extremely rare theres a zvt'er) but it's accepted as good enough because you can overcome balance with skill. Not to mention balance at lower levels, in the foreigner scene there was always more Z and P than T. And down at D levels P is certainly easier than T. So aiming for BW balance is not the goal at all.
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Fruitdealer's so boss. Let's go WonGi!!!!
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On April 24 2011 10:36 Phosgene wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 10:25 billyX333 wrote:
... It seems like the playxp interviewer seems to bring up zerg's struggles in every zerg interview lol I agree, there is some interviewer bias. Every time I translate, I feel like the guy is leading the players on to say the there is something wrong with the balance.
that might be true, but at the end of the day they're probably speaking truthfully or at least the interviewer is trying to get the truth out of them rather than some sort of polite lie to not seem like a whiner
in any case, I'm sure blizzard hears some of the feedback from the players and uses it to make changes so in the end it's ok
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Thanks for translation! Good read
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Nestea and fruitdealer interviews are always so...depressing lol.
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Australia4865 Posts
- Is protoss the obstacle for you this season?
I don’t think that depends so much on the races, but on the map pool.
So...can anyone give me an example of a map that evens out PvZ?
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On April 24 2011 11:02 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +- Is protoss the obstacle for you this season?
I don’t think that depends so much on the races, but on the map pool.
So...can anyone give me an example of a map that evens out PvZ? Im not sure but nestea always has complained about maps no matter what. I do not think anyone is sure what the perfect map is but the current pool is definitely better, but its something he has always been outspoken about.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
No narrow chokes, no small pathways, no wide open natural, long rush distance, 3rd closer to natural, no rocks, multiple watch towers, not many cliffs, no gold expo. neutral creep on some parts of the part.
These are kind of the stuff that helps make a map zerg favored.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:
No narrow chokes, no small pathways, no wide open natural, long rush distance, 3rd closer to natural, no rocks, multiple watch towers, not many cliffs, no gold expo. neutral creep on some parts of the part.
These are kind of the stuff that helps make a map zerg favored.
3rd close to natural is a bad thing for zerg. 3rd needs to be hard to take. Or else protoss can easily take a 3rd base and mass up 200/200.
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Australia4865 Posts
On April 24 2011 11:07 Gunman_csz wrote:
No narrow chokes, no small pathways, no wide open natural, long rush distance, 3rd closer to natural, no rocks, multiple watch towers, not many cliffs, no gold expo. neutral creep on some parts of the part.
These are kind of the stuff that helps make a map zerg favored.
heh, so Tal'Darim without the natural being on high ground?
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Even though Fruit will probably lose to Nestea, I'm glad he finally made it out of the group stages in a GSL.
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its funny how people tell idra to stfu about balance and that other zergs dont complain, but here are 2 of the best zergs in the world who also feel that zerg needs some changes
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EPT
