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On May 27 2011 05:26 Lokken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:08 Sueco wrote:On May 27 2011 05:02 Lokken wrote:
Zerg gets an AA unit at the same time as terran (1 tech building) and faster than toss(2 tech buildings).
Zerg gets an AA structure at the same time as terran and toss (1 tech building) Queens have a 50 second build time and can only be made one at a time from a $350 building that is also your tech tree. Queens cannot attack to punish greedy air builds. You fail at life and basic comprehension. Perhaps, but I do know the correct cost of the buildings in SC2, so I have that on you. You only 'need' AA early to defend, and Zerg has that, and they can start building it just as 'early' as any of the other races. The cost of the structure is in line with what it can do, and you don't tech with all of your hatches so you can produce queens non-stop if you need to. (Assuming your superior play doesn't involve single base Zerg play) Queens can't attack to punish greedy air builds no, but then I never claimed they could, nor was I responding to a post that made mention of that. The comprehension seems to be a bit lacking on both sides.
Sorry, I think you are still more wrong. You tried to make it seem like early AA is MORE or AS viable for zerg as it is for terran and toss. That is not true at this moment in the game. Building more than 3 queens is quite the investment. Also to BLINDLY build queens is even more risky. So, zergs will not be constantly making queens, and at some point you have to make a lair with one of your hatches. It's also worth noting that queens cannot allow you to be aggressive.
Now lets look at the other races early game options. Marines and stalkers are cheaper, easier to mass, part of almost every toss and terran strategy, and allow you to be aggressive. It's not imbalanced, but early game AA for zerg is the weakest of the three. It's just an aspect of the race.
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On May 27 2011 05:30 Sueco wrote:I can't believe I'm saying this on TL, but hatcheries cost 350 minerals since you lose a drone making them, and drones cost 50 min. If you have two queens and get attacked by two banshees spawned by an easily hidden starport, you pretty much autolose since you won't have energy for transfuse. That's 50 seconds of free reign over your mineral lines before you have the next set of queens which can be easily downed when they spawn. Building multiple blind queens as in the spanishiwa build does not work at tournament levels, something spanishiwa has pretty much acknowledged, since such a high blind mineral investment early in the game in units that are good for nothing but fighting air and spreading creep pretty much puts you behind if they do anything BUT air tech. There's a reason Idra did not use the spanishiwa build in the IPL. It sincerely sounds like you don't play zerg at all.
It sounds like you don't play zerg much if you think the mineral cost of a hatchery is a 'negative' for considering queens as anti-air.
Since all hatcheries are used for is queen production.
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On May 27 2011 05:35 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:26 Lokken wrote:On May 27 2011 05:08 Sueco wrote:On May 27 2011 05:02 Lokken wrote:
Zerg gets an AA unit at the same time as terran (1 tech building) and faster than toss(2 tech buildings).
Zerg gets an AA structure at the same time as terran and toss (1 tech building) Queens have a 50 second build time and can only be made one at a time from a $350 building that is also your tech tree. Queens cannot attack to punish greedy air builds. You fail at life and basic comprehension. Perhaps, but I do know the correct cost of the buildings in SC2, so I have that on you. You only 'need' AA early to defend, and Zerg has that, and they can start building it just as 'early' as any of the other races. The cost of the structure is in line with what it can do, and you don't tech with all of your hatches so you can produce queens non-stop if you need to. (Assuming your superior play doesn't involve single base Zerg play) Queens can't attack to punish greedy air builds no, but then I never claimed they could, nor was I responding to a post that made mention of that. The comprehension seems to be a bit lacking on both sides. Sorry, I think you are still more wrong. You tried to make it seem like early AA is MORE or AS viable for zerg as it is for terran and toss. That is not true at this moment in the game. Building more than 3 queens is quite the investment. Also to BLINDLY build queens is even more risky. So, zergs will not be constantly making queens, and at some point you have to make a lair with one of your hatches. It's also worth noting that queens cannot allow you to be aggressive. Now lets look at the other races early game options. Marines and stalkers are cheaper, easier to mass, part of almost every toss and terran strategy, and allow you to be aggressive. It's not imbalanced, but early game AA for zerg is the weakest of the three. It's just an aspect of the race.
I absolutely agree its the weakest of the 3.
I wasn't trying to say its as viable or dynamic, just saying it became available at the same time.
terran and toss dont have the speedy map control unit that zergs do right away either. there has to be tradeoffs somewhere.
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On May 27 2011 05:37 Lokken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:30 Sueco wrote:
300 minerals
I can't believe I'm saying this on TL, but hatcheries cost 350 minerals since you lose a drone making them, and drones cost 50 min. with two hatcheries, the AA is more than enough If you have two queens and get attacked by two banshees spawned by an easily hidden starport, you pretty much autolose since you won't have energy for transfuse. That's 50 seconds of free reign over your mineral lines before you have the next set of queens which can be easily downed when they spawn. Building multiple blind queens as in the spanishiwa build does not work at tournament levels, something spanishiwa has pretty much acknowledged, since such a high blind mineral investment early in the game in units that are good for nothing but fighting air and spreading creep pretty much puts you behind if they do anything BUT air tech. There's a reason Idra did not use the spanishiwa build in the IPL. It sincerely sounds like you don't play zerg at all. It sounds like you don't play zerg much if you think the mineral cost of a hatchery is a 'negative' for considering queens as anti-air. Since all hatcheries are used for is queen production.
Ever heard of "Lair"? Just give it up man. Uninformed opinions are not a crime you know.
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On May 27 2011 05:40 Sueco wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:37 Lokken wrote:On May 27 2011 05:30 Sueco wrote:
300 minerals
I can't believe I'm saying this on TL, but hatcheries cost 350 minerals since you lose a drone making them, and drones cost 50 min. with two hatcheries, the AA is more than enough If you have two queens and get attacked by two banshees spawned by an easily hidden starport, you pretty much autolose since you won't have energy for transfuse. That's 50 seconds of free reign over your mineral lines before you have the next set of queens which can be easily downed when they spawn. Building multiple blind queens as in the spanishiwa build does not work at tournament levels, something spanishiwa has pretty much acknowledged, since such a high blind mineral investment early in the game in units that are good for nothing but fighting air and spreading creep pretty much puts you behind if they do anything BUT air tech. There's a reason Idra did not use the spanishiwa build in the IPL. It sincerely sounds like you don't play zerg at all. It sounds like you don't play zerg much if you think the mineral cost of a hatchery is a 'negative' for considering queens as anti-air. Since all hatcheries are used for is queen production. Ever heard of "Lair"? Just give it up man. Uninformed opinions are not a crime you know.
So you morph every one of your hatcheries into a lair(at the exact same time)? Or do you always go lair on one base?
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On May 27 2011 05:40 Sueco wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:37 Lokken wrote:On May 27 2011 05:30 Sueco wrote:
300 minerals
I can't believe I'm saying this on TL, but hatcheries cost 350 minerals since you lose a drone making them, and drones cost 50 min. with two hatcheries, the AA is more than enough If you have two queens and get attacked by two banshees spawned by an easily hidden starport, you pretty much autolose since you won't have energy for transfuse. That's 50 seconds of free reign over your mineral lines before you have the next set of queens which can be easily downed when they spawn. Building multiple blind queens as in the spanishiwa build does not work at tournament levels, something spanishiwa has pretty much acknowledged, since such a high blind mineral investment early in the game in units that are good for nothing but fighting air and spreading creep pretty much puts you behind if they do anything BUT air tech. There's a reason Idra did not use the spanishiwa build in the IPL. It sincerely sounds like you don't play zerg at all. It sounds like you don't play zerg much if you think the mineral cost of a hatchery is a 'negative' for considering queens as anti-air. Since all hatcheries are used for is queen production. Ever heard of "Lair"? Just give it up man. Uninformed opinions are not a crime you know.
Either start pming each other, or give it a rest. This is starting to turn into a pointless argument
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mod edit: are you seriously spoiling the story of HotS?
User was warned for this post
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Canada13414 Posts
On May 26 2011 23:26 Sobba wrote:
From playing the old blizzard rts games i think we will see 1 caster unit for each race. And perhaps 1 more unit. Id like to see another top tier unit that is very situational. A unit that wont win you every game but sometimes if u can do it just right (mothership comes to mind) can turn the tide.
No man I've read interviews where they state certain units were a mistake. They never said exactly which units were a mistake but lets be honest here the Mothership is one of those mistake units.
On May 27 2011 05:48 VIB wrote:
mod edit: are you seriously spoiling the story of HotS?
Source?
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On May 27 2011 05:37 Lokken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:30 Sueco wrote:
300 minerals
I can't believe I'm saying this on TL, but hatcheries cost 350 minerals since you lose a drone making them, and drones cost 50 min. with two hatcheries, the AA is more than enough If you have two queens and get attacked by two banshees spawned by an easily hidden starport, you pretty much autolose since you won't have energy for transfuse. That's 50 seconds of free reign over your mineral lines before you have the next set of queens which can be easily downed when they spawn. Building multiple blind queens as in the spanishiwa build does not work at tournament levels, something spanishiwa has pretty much acknowledged, since such a high blind mineral investment early in the game in units that are good for nothing but fighting air and spreading creep pretty much puts you behind if they do anything BUT air tech. There's a reason Idra did not use the spanishiwa build in the IPL. It sincerely sounds like you don't play zerg at all. It sounds like you don't play zerg much if you think the mineral cost of a hatchery is a 'negative' for considering queens as anti-air. Since all hatcheries are used for is queen production.
You didn't address his point at all. His point is:
Mass queen is a blind counter to only air tech. You are behind if they go with macro or another form of push.
And no, not "all hatcheries are used for is queen production" (terrific grammar btw).
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On May 27 2011 05:59 julianto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:37 Lokken wrote:On May 27 2011 05:30 Sueco wrote:
300 minerals
I can't believe I'm saying this on TL, but hatcheries cost 350 minerals since you lose a drone making them, and drones cost 50 min. with two hatcheries, the AA is more than enough If you have two queens and get attacked by two banshees spawned by an easily hidden starport, you pretty much autolose since you won't have energy for transfuse. That's 50 seconds of free reign over your mineral lines before you have the next set of queens which can be easily downed when they spawn. Building multiple blind queens as in the spanishiwa build does not work at tournament levels, something spanishiwa has pretty much acknowledged, since such a high blind mineral investment early in the game in units that are good for nothing but fighting air and spreading creep pretty much puts you behind if they do anything BUT air tech. There's a reason Idra did not use the spanishiwa build in the IPL. It sincerely sounds like you don't play zerg at all. It sounds like you don't play zerg much if you think the mineral cost of a hatchery is a 'negative' for considering queens as anti-air. Since all hatcheries are used for is queen production. You didn't address his point at all. His point is: Mass queen is a blind counter to only air tech. You are behind if they go with macro or another form of push. And no, not "all hatcheries are used for is queen production" (terrific grammar btw).
Lets finish the discussion here. He is entitled to his opinion and clearly no arguments will sway it.
You get the point, and I assume most people do. That's all I expected.
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On May 27 2011 05:48 VIB wrote:
spoiler post.
Fucking spoiler that shit.
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On May 27 2011 06:08 ShallNoiseUpon wrote:Fucking spoiler that shit. Dude it's in the article in the front page that Kerrigan dies, did you not read the freaking front page?
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Queen can never replace the hydras at tier 1 because blizzard did bot design the queen as a combat unit, this is why it is the most creep bound unit. It is a macro/base defense unit. Hydras also are more than just anti air, they have the same range and damage vs ground this makes it a unit that can perform better in a wide variety situations.
Also what's wrong with zerg having 2 units that shoot up at hatch tech? Protoss have both sentry and stalker. Nothing wrong there right?
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On May 27 2011 06:35 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:08 ShallNoiseUpon wrote:On May 27 2011 05:48 VIB wrote:
spoiler post. Fucking spoiler that shit. Dude it's in the article in the front page that Kerrigan dies, did you not read the freaking front page?
Which article? I read the Kotaku and SCLegacy ones, but I can't find anything on + Show Spoiler +
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On May 27 2011 06:35 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:08 ShallNoiseUpon wrote:On May 27 2011 05:48 VIB wrote:
spoiler post. Fucking spoiler that shit. Dude it's in the article in the front page that Kerrigan dies, did you not read the freaking front page?
Think you should read it again bro.
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On May 27 2011 06:41 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:35 VIB wrote:On May 27 2011 06:08 ShallNoiseUpon wrote:On May 27 2011 05:48 VIB wrote:
spoiler post. Fucking spoiler that shit. Dude it's in the article in the front page that Kerrigan dies, did you not read the freaking front page? Think you should read it again bro.
Maybe you should. From the article
focus on Sarah Kerrigan and the Zerg legions - Blizzard has stated that the campaign will explore "what it means to be Zerg" Pretty obvious that Kerrigan dies. Just like in the bw campaign when I was playing with her and got her killed like 10 times per mission.
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By the way, a lot of people are focusing on what new units they will add. Remember that the new UPGRADES to old units change things as well.
Like in Brood War, Goliaths became an anti-air BEAST with the range upgrade that was introduced in Brood War. And Ultralisks got their armor upgrade in BW as well. Theres a lot of potential upgrades they could add to the game to spice things up.
Personally I'd like to see something that makes Reapers more used in the mid/late game.
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On May 27 2011 05:59 julianto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 05:37 Lokken wrote:On May 27 2011 05:30 Sueco wrote:
300 minerals
I can't believe I'm saying this on TL, but hatcheries cost 350 minerals since you lose a drone making them, and drones cost 50 min. with two hatcheries, the AA is more than enough If you have two queens and get attacked by two banshees spawned by an easily hidden starport, you pretty much autolose since you won't have energy for transfuse. That's 50 seconds of free reign over your mineral lines before you have the next set of queens which can be easily downed when they spawn. Building multiple blind queens as in the spanishiwa build does not work at tournament levels, something spanishiwa has pretty much acknowledged, since such a high blind mineral investment early in the game in units that are good for nothing but fighting air and spreading creep pretty much puts you behind if they do anything BUT air tech. There's a reason Idra did not use the spanishiwa build in the IPL. It sincerely sounds like you don't play zerg at all. It sounds like you don't play zerg much if you think the mineral cost of a hatchery is a 'negative' for considering queens as anti-air. Since all hatcheries are used for is queen production. You didn't address his point at all. His point is: Mass queen is a blind counter to only air tech. You are behind if they go with macro or another form of push. And no, not "all hatcheries are used for is queen production" (terrific grammar btw).
I didn't address his 'point' because it was irrelevant to my statement, which only stated you can get anti-air at the same time as the other races. He brought up mass queens, and then started arguing about it like I made some kind of claim about its offensive viability. 3-4 queens isn't mass queens. The point that queens aren't a viable aggressive unit that can shoot up is a wonderful statement that no-one was arguing, yet he kept harping on.
You also have no sarcasm detector or the ability to read English. It was a sarcastic statement that claimed that the only purpose of dropping 300 minerals on hatcheries was to produce queens. Obviously the structure is used for far more than that so using its cost as a reason against extra queens was ridiculous.
To stay somewhat on topic, and not re-hash the spoiler QQing, I wouldn't mind seeing a hatch tech offensive unit that shoots up, I just wonder how it would fit in. Would it have to be a glass cannon type of unit since the roach is the tank?
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On May 27 2011 07:41 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 06:41 Karthane wrote:On May 27 2011 06:35 VIB wrote:On May 27 2011 06:08 ShallNoiseUpon wrote:On May 27 2011 05:48 VIB wrote:
spoiler post. Fucking spoiler that shit. Dude it's in the article in the front page that Kerrigan dies, did you not read the freaking front page? Think you should read it again bro. Maybe you should. From the article Show nested quote +focus on Sarah Kerrigan and the Zerg legions - Blizzard has stated that the campaign will explore "what it means to be Zerg" Pretty obvious that Kerrigan dies. Just like in the bw campaign when I was playing with her and got her killed like 10 times per mission.
...so because they say the campaign will explore "what it means to be Zerg" you are jumping to the conclusion that kerrigan dies.
I don't see it, and i'd advise that you don't go spreading that around because it's vague at best.
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On May 27 2011 08:18 Ocedic wrote:
By the way, a lot of people are focusing on what new units they will add. Remember that the new UPGRADES to old units change things as well.
Like in Brood War, Goliaths became an anti-air BEAST with the range upgrade that was introduced in Brood War. And Ultralisks got their armor upgrade in BW as well. Theres a lot of potential upgrades they could add to the game to spice things up.
Personally I'd like to see something that makes Reapers more used in the mid/late game.
I think someone(maybe Browder) said they plan on un-nerfing the reaper in HotS. If they're making nitro packs tech lab tech again, I assume this means they're either giving Z T1 hydras or buffing queens/spines significantly.
EDIT: I found the interview: http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/04/browder-hints-at-heart-of-the-swarm-updates-emphasises-importance-of-e-sports/
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