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Great OP, however I think that SC2 will be fixed over time as they start removing the "blob syndrome" that comes from people focusing too heavily on unit composition and less on positioning and tactics. Once the imbalanced units like fungal growth, HTs with ez mode psi storm, collosus with their cliff walking non-friendly siege damage, and possibly nerf the healing range on medivacs or something, can't really think of a T unit that needs nerfing atm. Anyways, once the units are balanced the game will come down to tactics rather than just building up your army and trying to counter your opponents play. I think that Spanishiwa with his massive harass based play is a good example of tactics over unit composition, however there's nothing you can do to combat fungal growth except kill the infestors before it's cast, etc... If you could lift units up from fungal or somehow free them or something it would really make the game a lot more dynamic. Adding a dodge delay mechanic to collosus or have a cloud appear before the psi storm would also be helpful.
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On April 20 2011 14:41 CatNzHat wrote:
Great OP, however I think that SC2 will be fixed over time as they start removing the "blob syndrome" that comes from people focusing too heavily on unit composition and less on positioning and tactics. Once the imbalanced units like fungal growth, HTs with ez mode psi storm, collosus with their cliff walking non-friendly siege damage, and possibly nerf the healing range on medivacs or something, can't really think of a T unit that needs nerfing atm. Anyways, once the units are balanced the game will come down to tactics rather than just building up your army and trying to counter your opponents play. I think that Spanishiwa with his massive harass based play is a good example of tactics over unit composition, however there's nothing you can do to combat fungal growth except kill the infestors before it's cast, etc... If you could lift units up from fungal or somehow free them or something it would really make the game a lot more dynamic. Adding a dodge delay mechanic to collosus or have a cloud appear before the psi storm would also be helpful.
Nerfing any of that stuff would cause the game to be even worse. People need to understand that nerfing doesn't usually do the game much good - all it does is take away options, detracting from game depth and complexity.
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What SC2 is missing for me:
Its missing Art. I'm not talking about the awesome cover art by Samwise , jaw dropping game cinematics, or even the 3-d wireframe art. I'm talking about sitting back and just watching games and saying,"whoa that was awesome". To be clear the game play aspects that I thought that made the Brood War experience so memorable was the ability to do "Art".
Let me clarify what I mean by a few brief examples of the Zerg Art. The aspect of Zerg that I miss the most is Mutalisk Micro control. For those that played broodwar this is the pinnacle of controlling your army in Brood War. With your mutalisks you could maneuver them like a scapel and exert tremenous pressure on your opponent and force them to make mistakes. At its highest levels of 300apm+, I can remember the first time I saw July Zerg do this and said wow thats awesome I want to do that...it was cool to watch, even cooler to learn , and really gave me a feeling of accomplishment with every game. I even still have youtube favorite bookmarks of Sc1 moments where awesomeplayers like Jaedong control multiple groups of mutalisk micro ART. If there was one aspect that I would add to the current game play is this level of ART.
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On April 20 2011 14:25 Nazza wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 12:46 0neder wrote:
My 4th pick would be slower time to supply max, it greatly reduces strategic/tactical options It's interesting that you say this. It take approximately 15 mins to max in TvP in BW. However, this is playing off 3 bases. I think it takes approximately the same amount of time to max in SC2, if not longer. However, expansions are taken relatively later in sc2. Also can you elaborate on reducing strategic/tactical options? BTW, Slayers_Boxer himself said that if SC2 were to succeed, people have to start playing more entertaining games. I mean, yeah, player skill has something to do with it, but there is a skill ceiling that will be reached. After players hit the theoretical skill ceiling, will the games become more entertaining?
Interesting to hear that it takes close to the same amount of time to max out in both games.
I think a main problem in SC2 right now is that a lot of players are afraid to engage in constant, BW-esque aggression throughout the game. Whereas BW players constantly trade armies in continuous engagements, I see too many matches where there is minimal aggression while both players passively max out their balls and engage. It's formulaic. It's boring. It's hurting SC2 as an e-sport.
However, there are quite a few exceptions to the norm emerging in the SC2 scene that do bring hope to this ball-plagued scene. San, July, and more recently Mondragon have shown extremely aggressive, active, yet somewhat scrappy styles that have produced entertaining games and even successful results to a degree. As players become more comfortable leaving their base and engaging in aggression, it should be much harder to accumulate maxed-out balls as armies are constantly traded from all this aggression.
Hopefully, we'll be seeing more Mondragons and fewer Crunchers in the SC2 scene, which should help in producing more entertaining games as well as advancing the metagame in a more desirable direction.
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I read the OP only, and want to say: I fully agree with the part about spells. No spells in BW removed decisions from the other player. There were spells that limited movement, like ensnare and spider mines, but no spells that flat out destroyed micro for the other player. All spells augmented primary units instead, which promoted higher levels of battle micro to skew it in your favor.
I remember back in 2007, I was arguing that infinite unit selection would open up the possibilities for pros to show off even more insane micro. I was thinking of shuttle/reaver micro in particular, being able to mitigate damage more effectively would allow them to be used en masse during battle.
But then we got a game where the primary spells completely end battles from a spectators point of view.
"Oh, 10 forcefields just surrounded all those roaches and hydras. Guess that's the end of that."
or
"Oh, 3 fungals just hit all my marines. Time to sit around and wait for the second wave."
There's no way SC2 would succeed without autocast and infinite unit selection. I think they need to severely augment the spells with the expansions to promote higher levels of micro, rather than destroy their possibility of even existing.
With that and a colossus change, SC2 has a lot of potential. I've yet to watch a pro match of SC2 that has lived up to some of the most memorable moments from BW. It's disappointing, because I want SC2 to become greater than BW ever was, and from a spectator's point of view, there's just no comparison. BW takes the cake.
That said, I still love playing SC2 more than I ever loved playing BW. It would be nice if SC2 was an upgrade in all aspects of ESPORTS, rather than just one. 
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On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 08:36 iNfeRnaL wrote:On April 20 2011 05:55 s3raph wrote:
therefore, this validates the 'wait and see' argument for SC2 because SC2 communities have most likely not yet reached critical mass. Frankly, I don't think it will ever balance out itself before Blizzard doesn't stfu with the patching. BW got good/balanced after Blizzard stopped the patching...Leave that shit to the community Blizzard, we are good at it, you're not. Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash  Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments.
Question:
Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two?
Blizzard's Answer
That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules.
If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc.,
But that's not entirely the point ..
Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community.
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wow wasn't made to be a competitive game, nor is it. The whole competition aspect was forced into it because of the game's popularity and then blizzard was like wtf players want us to "balance" this mmo? Its hardly a fair comparison.
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On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 08:36 iNfeRnaL wrote:On April 20 2011 05:55 s3raph wrote:
therefore, this validates the 'wait and see' argument for SC2 because SC2 communities have most likely not yet reached critical mass. Frankly, I don't think it will ever balance out itself before Blizzard doesn't stfu with the patching. BW got good/balanced after Blizzard stopped the patching...Leave that shit to the community Blizzard, we are good at it, you're not. Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Show nested quote +Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer Show nested quote +That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community.
You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction?
Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid.
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I know this has probably been stated before but sc2 is missing those "OOOOOOOOH SHIT" moments when you don't know if something is going to happen like reavers or spider mines from sc1. Banelings are kinda close but I still dont think it tops a reaver shot or a spider mine landing or not.
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On April 20 2011 15:53 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 08:36 iNfeRnaL wrote:On April 20 2011 05:55 s3raph wrote:
therefore, this validates the 'wait and see' argument for SC2 because SC2 communities have most likely not yet reached critical mass. Frankly, I don't think it will ever balance out itself before Blizzard doesn't stfu with the patching. BW got good/balanced after Blizzard stopped the patching...Leave that shit to the community Blizzard, we are good at it, you're not. Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community. You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction? Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid.
You fail to see the point I'm making, regardless of their dev teams being different they have the same goal. Make the game beginner friendly. They have stated this time and time again that they want new bloods for their game. Aside from a new comer buying the SC2 game, How can Blizzard profit for their games??
If the Skill Cap in SC2 becomes comparable to BW, there will be no more buyers for SC2 if that's the case.
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On April 20 2011 14:56 Meta wrote:
"Oh, 10 forcefields just surrounded all those roaches and hydras. Guess that's the end of that."
or
"Oh, 3 fungals just hit all my marines. Time to sit around and wait for the second wave."
Those are problems that players themselves can fix, you can't blame game design on things like that. Let's not forget Brood War's Statis, Disruption Web and Dark Swarm abilities also removed the ability for a player to control a situation. The metagame still has some serious development distance to go before we start seeing what we've seen in Brood War in Starcraft 2.
Starcraft 2's biggest void to me is patience in the form of people trying to take it too seriously before figuring out how to best play, thinking that they'll have the game worked out within the year, and it's just not happening at even close to the rate people were anticipating it would. This leads to arrogant hordes of players bitching and crying about the game obviously being imbalanced because they're playing perfectly but their X still can't "counter" Y. There are still so, so many strategic avenues not being explored and so many problems being left unsolved because it's easier to ask for a patch than work them out for yourself.
I'd even go so far as to question whether or not all the people crying imbalance even want to play the game. Pro players included.
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On April 20 2011 17:17 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 15:53 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 08:36 iNfeRnaL wrote:On April 20 2011 05:55 s3raph wrote:
therefore, this validates the 'wait and see' argument for SC2 because SC2 communities have most likely not yet reached critical mass. Frankly, I don't think it will ever balance out itself before Blizzard doesn't stfu with the patching. BW got good/balanced after Blizzard stopped the patching...Leave that shit to the community Blizzard, we are good at it, you're not. Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community. You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction? Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid. You fail to see the point I'm making, regardless of their dev teams being different they have the same goal. Make the game beginner friendly. They have stated this time and time again that they want new bloods for their game. Aside from a new comer buying the SC2 game, How can Blizzard profit for their games?? If the Skill Cap can be compared to BW, there will be no more buyers for SC2 if that's the case.
So many things are wrong with your comparison about the only thing right is that Blizzard want their games to be played by casual players. You call the PvE community of WoW casuals, even though the game was and still is BASED on PvE and to totally differentiate PvE and PvP abilities this far into the game is a design decision they don't want to make. It has nothing to do with how SC2 devs want to push their game forward (as their campaign/multiplayer is already totally separate entities).
You use statements made by WoW devs to somehow push your argument about SC2. At Blizzcon 2010 the devs of SC2 had a panel where they talked about balance and it was in no way anything comparable to how the WoW team does it. Looking at patches so far they've been very mild compared to the overbuffing and nerfing of WoW classes and abilities.
TLDR: Design and balance choices differ greatly between a PvE/PvP MMO and a competitive RTS.
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On April 20 2011 17:35 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 17:17 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 15:53 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 08:36 iNfeRnaL wrote:On April 20 2011 05:55 s3raph wrote:
therefore, this validates the 'wait and see' argument for SC2 because SC2 communities have most likely not yet reached critical mass. Frankly, I don't think it will ever balance out itself before Blizzard doesn't stfu with the patching. BW got good/balanced after Blizzard stopped the patching...Leave that shit to the community Blizzard, we are good at it, you're not. Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community. You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction? Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid. You fail to see the point I'm making, regardless of their dev teams being different they have the same goal. Make the game beginner friendly. They have stated this time and time again that they want new bloods for their game. Aside from a new comer buying the SC2 game, How can Blizzard profit for their games?? If the Skill Cap can be compared to BW, there will be no more buyers for SC2 if that's the case. So many things are wrong with your comparison about the only thing right is that Blizzard want their games to be played by casual players. You call the PvE community of WoW casuals, even though the game was and still is BASED on PvE and to totally differentiate PvE and PvP abilities this far into the game is a design decision they don't want to make. It has nothing to do with how SC2 devs want to push their game forward (as their campaign/multiplayer is already totally separate entities). You use statements made by WoW devs to somehow push your argument about SC2. At Blizzcon 2010 the devs of SC2 had a panel where they talked about balance and it was in no way anything comparable to how the WoW team does it. Looking at patches so far they've been very mild compared to the overbuffing and nerfing of WoW classes and abilities. TLDR: Design and balance choices differ greatly between a PvE/PvP MMO and a competitive RTS.
So let's compare it to BW balance choices then
How many times did Blizzard patch BW? Not the minor ones but the game changing ones. Now compare that to SC2.
What I'm trying to say is that SC2 is being dumbed down for the casual gamer. They are trying to lower the skill cap. They have successfully done so with the MBS and large control groups.
They don't want SC2 to have a very high skill cap because no one will buy their game if this happens. Like what happened to BW when Koreans started to rape everyone during WCG. I am not comparing the aspects of PvP vs PvE of wow to SC2. I'm comparing their approach regarding their games. THEY ARE DUMBING IT DOWN TO A POINT WHERE A low level player who just playes the game for fun and doesn't really care about going professional can pawn a high level player that is dedicated to the game.
Imagine yourself defeating a Kobe Bryant of Starcraft and you're just a random dude in a basketball court. How would that "Kobe Bryant of Starcraft" feel about his game he passionately love and is dedicated to give high level game.
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On April 20 2011 17:52 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 17:35 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 17:17 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 15:53 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 08:36 iNfeRnaL wrote:
[quote]
Frankly, I don't think it will ever balance out itself before Blizzard doesn't stfu with the patching.
BW got good/balanced after Blizzard stopped the patching...
Leave that shit to the community Blizzard, we are good at it, you're not. Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community. You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction? Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid. You fail to see the point I'm making, regardless of their dev teams being different they have the same goal. Make the game beginner friendly. They have stated this time and time again that they want new bloods for their game. Aside from a new comer buying the SC2 game, How can Blizzard profit for their games?? If the Skill Cap can be compared to BW, there will be no more buyers for SC2 if that's the case. So many things are wrong with your comparison about the only thing right is that Blizzard want their games to be played by casual players. You call the PvE community of WoW casuals, even though the game was and still is BASED on PvE and to totally differentiate PvE and PvP abilities this far into the game is a design decision they don't want to make. It has nothing to do with how SC2 devs want to push their game forward (as their campaign/multiplayer is already totally separate entities). You use statements made by WoW devs to somehow push your argument about SC2. At Blizzcon 2010 the devs of SC2 had a panel where they talked about balance and it was in no way anything comparable to how the WoW team does it. Looking at patches so far they've been very mild compared to the overbuffing and nerfing of WoW classes and abilities. TLDR: Design and balance choices differ greatly between a PvE/PvP MMO and a competitive RTS. So let's compare it to BW balance choices then How many times did Blizzard patch BW? Not the minor ones but the game changing ones. Now compare that to SC2. What I'm trying to say is that SC2 is being dumbed down for the casual gamer. They are trying to lower the skill cap. They have successfully done so with the MBS and large control groups. They don't want SC2 to have a very high skill cap because no one will buy their game if this happens. Like what happened to BW when Koreans started to rape everyone during WCG. I am not comparing the aspects of PvP vs PvE of wow to SC2. I'm comparing their approach regarding their games. THEY ARE DUMBING IT DOWN TO A POINT WHERE A low level player who just playes the game for fun and doesn't really care about going professional can pawn a high level player that is dedicated to the game. Imagine yourself defeating a Kobe Bryant of Starcraft and you're just a random dude in a basketball court. How would that "Kobe Bryant of Starcraft" feel about his game he passionately love and is dedicated to give high level game.
MBS and large control groups whine is so SC2 beta. I'd like to post that animated MBS video but i wont due to thread derailment.
Ok so now SC2 is so dumbed down that low level players own professionals. Have you ever even watched any tournaments? The best of the best stay on top, not due to luck but due to being a better player. Your posts are hyperbole and exaggerations galore, if MC/MVP are the current Kobe Bryants of SC2 i challenge you to find ONE "low level player who plays the game for fun" that wont be completely destroyed.
Also you're the one who brought up PvE vs PvP. You are obviously a old WoW PvPer as you call everyone else playing a PvE based MMO a casual. Your opinions are not facts and a MMO needs to appeal to a much larger crowd than a RTS does.
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On April 20 2011 18:03 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 17:52 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 17:35 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 17:17 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 15:53 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:[quote] Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community. You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction? Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid. You fail to see the point I'm making, regardless of their dev teams being different they have the same goal. Make the game beginner friendly. They have stated this time and time again that they want new bloods for their game. Aside from a new comer buying the SC2 game, How can Blizzard profit for their games?? If the Skill Cap can be compared to BW, there will be no more buyers for SC2 if that's the case. So many things are wrong with your comparison about the only thing right is that Blizzard want their games to be played by casual players. You call the PvE community of WoW casuals, even though the game was and still is BASED on PvE and to totally differentiate PvE and PvP abilities this far into the game is a design decision they don't want to make. It has nothing to do with how SC2 devs want to push their game forward (as their campaign/multiplayer is already totally separate entities). You use statements made by WoW devs to somehow push your argument about SC2. At Blizzcon 2010 the devs of SC2 had a panel where they talked about balance and it was in no way anything comparable to how the WoW team does it. Looking at patches so far they've been very mild compared to the overbuffing and nerfing of WoW classes and abilities. TLDR: Design and balance choices differ greatly between a PvE/PvP MMO and a competitive RTS. So let's compare it to BW balance choices then How many times did Blizzard patch BW? Not the minor ones but the game changing ones. Now compare that to SC2. What I'm trying to say is that SC2 is being dumbed down for the casual gamer. They are trying to lower the skill cap. They have successfully done so with the MBS and large control groups. They don't want SC2 to have a very high skill cap because no one will buy their game if this happens. Like what happened to BW when Koreans started to rape everyone during WCG. I am not comparing the aspects of PvP vs PvE of wow to SC2. I'm comparing their approach regarding their games. THEY ARE DUMBING IT DOWN TO A POINT WHERE A low level player who just playes the game for fun and doesn't really care about going professional can pawn a high level player that is dedicated to the game. Imagine yourself defeating a Kobe Bryant of Starcraft and you're just a random dude in a basketball court. How would that "Kobe Bryant of Starcraft" feel about his game he passionately love and is dedicated to give high level game. MBS and large control groups whine is so SC2 beta. I'd like to post that animated MBS video but i wont due to thread derailment. Ok so now SC2 is so dumbed down that low level players own professionals. Have you ever even watched any tournaments? The best of the best stay on top, not due to luck but due to being a better player. Your posts are hyperbole and exaggerations galore, if MC/MVP are the current Kobe Bryants of SC2 i challenge you to find ONE "low level player who plays the game for fun" that wont be completely destroyed. Also you're the one who brought up PvE vs PvP. You are obviously a old WoW PvPer as you call everyone else playing a PvE based MMO a casual. Your opinions are not facts and a MMO needs to appeal to a much larger crowd than a RTS does.
You will understand what I mean when SC2 has 1231092380948 Balance Patches under it's belt.
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On April 20 2011 18:08 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 18:03 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 17:52 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 17:35 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 17:17 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 15:53 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:[quote] Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community. You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction? Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid. You fail to see the point I'm making, regardless of their dev teams being different they have the same goal. Make the game beginner friendly. They have stated this time and time again that they want new bloods for their game. Aside from a new comer buying the SC2 game, How can Blizzard profit for their games?? If the Skill Cap can be compared to BW, there will be no more buyers for SC2 if that's the case. So many things are wrong with your comparison about the only thing right is that Blizzard want their games to be played by casual players. You call the PvE community of WoW casuals, even though the game was and still is BASED on PvE and to totally differentiate PvE and PvP abilities this far into the game is a design decision they don't want to make. It has nothing to do with how SC2 devs want to push their game forward (as their campaign/multiplayer is already totally separate entities). You use statements made by WoW devs to somehow push your argument about SC2. At Blizzcon 2010 the devs of SC2 had a panel where they talked about balance and it was in no way anything comparable to how the WoW team does it. Looking at patches so far they've been very mild compared to the overbuffing and nerfing of WoW classes and abilities. TLDR: Design and balance choices differ greatly between a PvE/PvP MMO and a competitive RTS. So let's compare it to BW balance choices then How many times did Blizzard patch BW? Not the minor ones but the game changing ones. Now compare that to SC2. What I'm trying to say is that SC2 is being dumbed down for the casual gamer. They are trying to lower the skill cap. They have successfully done so with the MBS and large control groups. They don't want SC2 to have a very high skill cap because no one will buy their game if this happens. Like what happened to BW when Koreans started to rape everyone during WCG. I am not comparing the aspects of PvP vs PvE of wow to SC2. I'm comparing their approach regarding their games. THEY ARE DUMBING IT DOWN TO A POINT WHERE A low level player who just playes the game for fun and doesn't really care about going professional can pawn a high level player that is dedicated to the game. Imagine yourself defeating a Kobe Bryant of Starcraft and you're just a random dude in a basketball court. How would that "Kobe Bryant of Starcraft" feel about his game he passionately love and is dedicated to give high level game. MBS and large control groups whine is so SC2 beta. I'd like to post that animated MBS video but i wont due to thread derailment. Ok so now SC2 is so dumbed down that low level players own professionals. Have you ever even watched any tournaments? The best of the best stay on top, not due to luck but due to being a better player. Your posts are hyperbole and exaggerations galore, if MC/MVP are the current Kobe Bryants of SC2 i challenge you to find ONE "low level player who plays the game for fun" that wont be completely destroyed. Also you're the one who brought up PvE vs PvP. You are obviously a old WoW PvPer as you call everyone else playing a PvE based MMO a casual. Your opinions are not facts and a MMO needs to appeal to a much larger crowd than a RTS does. You will understand what I mean when SC2 has 1231092380948 Balance Patches under it's belt.
You still believe that WoW is any indicator of what will happen to SC2? There's been a year and all we've seen are pretty minor tweaks. WoW had huge sweeping buffs and nerfs in that time.
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On April 20 2011 17:52 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 17:35 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 17:17 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 15:53 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 08:36 iNfeRnaL wrote:
[quote]
Frankly, I don't think it will ever balance out itself before Blizzard doesn't stfu with the patching.
BW got good/balanced after Blizzard stopped the patching...
Leave that shit to the community Blizzard, we are good at it, you're not. Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community. You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction? Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid. You fail to see the point I'm making, regardless of their dev teams being different they have the same goal. Make the game beginner friendly. They have stated this time and time again that they want new bloods for their game. Aside from a new comer buying the SC2 game, How can Blizzard profit for their games?? If the Skill Cap can be compared to BW, there will be no more buyers for SC2 if that's the case. So many things are wrong with your comparison about the only thing right is that Blizzard want their games to be played by casual players. You call the PvE community of WoW casuals, even though the game was and still is BASED on PvE and to totally differentiate PvE and PvP abilities this far into the game is a design decision they don't want to make. It has nothing to do with how SC2 devs want to push their game forward (as their campaign/multiplayer is already totally separate entities). You use statements made by WoW devs to somehow push your argument about SC2. At Blizzcon 2010 the devs of SC2 had a panel where they talked about balance and it was in no way anything comparable to how the WoW team does it. Looking at patches so far they've been very mild compared to the overbuffing and nerfing of WoW classes and abilities. TLDR: Design and balance choices differ greatly between a PvE/PvP MMO and a competitive RTS. So let's compare it to BW balance choices then How many times did Blizzard patch BW? Not the minor ones but the game changing ones. Now compare that to SC2. What I'm trying to say is that SC2 is being dumbed down for the casual gamer. They are trying to lower the skill cap. They have successfully done so with the MBS and large control groups. They don't want SC2 to have a very high skill cap because no one will buy their game if this happens. Like what happened to BW when Koreans started to rape everyone during WCG. I am not comparing the aspects of PvP vs PvE of wow to SC2. I'm comparing their approach regarding their games. THEY ARE DUMBING IT DOWN TO A POINT WHERE A low level player who just playes the game for fun and doesn't really care about going professional can pawn a high level player that is dedicated to the game.Imagine yourself defeating a Kobe Bryant of Starcraft and you're just a random dude in a basketball court. How would that "Kobe Bryant of Starcraft" feel about his game he passionately love and is dedicated to give high level game.
Yeah.
Wait, no.
That's idiotic.
That's not true in Starcraft II, it's not true in Brood War, it's not true in World of Warcraft, it's not true in Red Alert 3, it's not true in Super Puzzle Fighter II, it's not true in Super Smash Brothers Brawl, and it's not true in Team Fortress II.
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On April 20 2011 17:52 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 17:35 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 17:17 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 15:53 karpo wrote:On April 20 2011 15:31 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 14:40 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 14:30 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 11:49 AlBundy wrote:On April 20 2011 11:33 aimaimaim wrote:On April 20 2011 08:36 iNfeRnaL wrote:
[quote]
Frankly, I don't think it will ever balance out itself before Blizzard doesn't stfu with the patching.
BW got good/balanced after Blizzard stopped the patching...
Leave that shit to the community Blizzard, we are good at it, you're not. Yes! YES! YES!Every time I see about SC2 whine about their game being imbalanced, I blame Blizzard! Korean BW proscene is what it is now because of the players. PLAYERS BALANCE THE GAMES! MAPS ARE THERE TO ADD MORE BALANCE! This will be like WOW where they balance their PvP for PvE and STILL want to cater to new players. If BLIZZARD will stop spoon feeding noobs, we can have this SKILL CAP!Read this so that you, SC2 groupies will know what BW is missing .. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213263 Dude, being a BW fanboy is cool and all, I love BW too, but I have to step in. The bolded part is totally wrong and baseless. Comparing wow balance to sc2 balance is nonsensical and misleading for the people who read this thread. We all know from Blizzcon 2010 that the two are 100% different and unrelated. edit; also yes, indeed, sc2 is missing JD, bisu and Flash Their approach is the same. Dumb the game so that it's beginner friendly. If people cook something new and innovative, gaining the upper hand, the receiving end of this play will whine and whine until they get blizzard to patch and nerf it to kingdom come. Making the game bland and .. well dumb. Oh yeah? do you have a source? Or are you pulling this statement out of your ass? You won't convince me with speculation. I'm talking about actual facts so please go and watch sc2 panels @ Blizzcon 2k10 before spouting such negative comments. Question: Considering how often changes meant to balance PVE performance for certain classes then creates imbalance in their performance in PVP, and vice verse, have the developers ever considered completely separating the two? Blizzard's Answer That’s a common solution proposed by our active forum participants for whom balance may be the single most important concern when they play. You have to put yourself in the mind of a new player just trying to pick up the game though. Already there are a bewildering array of class abilities and talents, many with their own idiosyncrasies or special rules. Now you have to virtually double that if you want all of the player spells to have a PvE and a PvP tooltip. We prefer solutions like resilience and diminishing returns on crowd control that are more global rules rather than virtually every ability having a PvE vs. a PvP coefficient. We want it to feel like one game with a unified set of rules. If you don't understood the point of this. Some PvE stuff affects the PvP aspect of the game. Which is implied in the statement above. These special rules are the ones the PvP community hate. They want a specific talent tree, game rules, etc., But that's not entirely the point .. Think of it this way. WoW has been very successful. You would think that Blizzard would make money by making Team leagues using the PvP community. You could also assume that if Blizzard do this, there is without a doubt that there will be a huge viewership in these televised leagues or even in a GSL-like internet stream! But no, they would still cater to the PvE community. THE CASUAL community. You are comparing a PvE centric MMO to a competitive RTS. You don't see the HUGE difference in player base and game direction? Blizzard has completely different developers AND game ideas for WoW and SC2. Comparing how to balance and develop these games is just stupid. You fail to see the point I'm making, regardless of their dev teams being different they have the same goal. Make the game beginner friendly. They have stated this time and time again that they want new bloods for their game. Aside from a new comer buying the SC2 game, How can Blizzard profit for their games?? If the Skill Cap can be compared to BW, there will be no more buyers for SC2 if that's the case. So many things are wrong with your comparison about the only thing right is that Blizzard want their games to be played by casual players. You call the PvE community of WoW casuals, even though the game was and still is BASED on PvE and to totally differentiate PvE and PvP abilities this far into the game is a design decision they don't want to make. It has nothing to do with how SC2 devs want to push their game forward (as their campaign/multiplayer is already totally separate entities). You use statements made by WoW devs to somehow push your argument about SC2. At Blizzcon 2010 the devs of SC2 had a panel where they talked about balance and it was in no way anything comparable to how the WoW team does it. Looking at patches so far they've been very mild compared to the overbuffing and nerfing of WoW classes and abilities. TLDR: Design and balance choices differ greatly between a PvE/PvP MMO and a competitive RTS. So let's compare it to BW balance choices then How many times did Blizzard patch BW? Not the minor ones but the game changing ones. Now compare that to SC2. What I'm trying to say is that SC2 is being dumbed down for the casual gamer. They are trying to lower the skill cap. They have successfully done so with the MBS and large control groups. They don't want SC2 to have a very high skill cap because no one will buy their game if this happens. Like what happened to BW when Koreans started to rape everyone during WCG. I am not comparing the aspects of PvP vs PvE of wow to SC2. I'm comparing their approach regarding their games. THEY ARE DUMBING IT DOWN TO A POINT WHERE A low level player who just playes the game for fun and doesn't really care about going professional can pawn a high level player that is dedicated to the game. Imagine yourself defeating a Kobe Bryant of Starcraft and you're just a random dude in a basketball court. How would that "Kobe Bryant of Starcraft" feel about his game he passionately love and is dedicated to give high level game.
Interestingly enough, youre talking about balance PATCHES, and yet MBS and large control groups have absolutely nothing to do with patches. They were in the game from the beginning. Maybe you just have a problem with SC2 as a whole rather than the balance team?
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On April 20 2011 14:45 Persev wrote:
What SC2 is missing for me:
Its missing Art. I'm not talking about the awesome cover art by Samwise , jaw dropping game cinematics, or even the 3-d wireframe art. I'm talking about sitting back and just watching games and saying,"whoa that was awesome". To be clear the game play aspects that I thought that made the Brood War experience so memorable was the ability to do "Art".
Let me clarify what I mean by a few brief examples of the Zerg Art. The aspect of Zerg that I miss the most is Mutalisk Micro control. For those that played broodwar this is the pinnacle of controlling your army in Brood War. With your mutalisks you could maneuver them like a scapel and exert tremenous pressure on your opponent and force them to make mistakes. At its highest levels of 300apm+, I can remember the first time I saw July Zerg do this and said wow thats awesome I want to do that...it was cool to watch, even cooler to learn , and really gave me a feeling of accomplishment with every game. I even still have youtube favorite bookmarks of Sc1 moments where awesomeplayers like Jaedong control multiple groups of mutalisk micro ART. If there was one aspect that I would add to the current game play is this level of ART.
This. Pure "Art".
When you stare down an Art masterpiece, you are inspired, fascinated, and captured.
It is not Mona Lisa if all top artists can draw it. It is the uniqueness that creates the Art.
In all big sport, you have Art performed by top athletes:
- Jordan's fade-away. Kareem's skyhook.
- Messi's speed dribbing.
- Nadal's top spin.
- Pacquiao's speed Southpaw.
In SC2, it is rare to find uniqueness (e.g. MC's FF). Every match resembles each other and you cannot tell the difference who is playing if the player's names are not shown.
In BW, we have progamers well-known for their uniqueness: Boxer's marine micro, JD's mutas, Bisu's multitasking, Fantasy's vultures, Flash's starsense, etc. A good example is that in recent allstar match, even the progamers play a prank on us to switch their ID and races, we BW fans were able to recognize, only after few minutes of watching, that there's something wrong and not the same player playing. This is what makes BW legend.
I blame this on the intelligent game engine. The movement, pathing, casting and interface are simply too good and outdone what human can do. In BW, you can never have the zergling surround like in SC2 even with 1000 APM. Same goes in any other games that if you have a general best OP weapon, you'll see everyone is using it on every server and that takes out the uniqueness. The current SC2 engine is that OP weapon, it makes machine (artificial) factors outweigh human factors.
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So I'm new to actually playing RTS games against other people. Before SC2 the most I did was link 2 computers via serial cable when I was 12 to play WC2 and some WC3 tower defense with housemates at uni. I don't think I even finished the original SC (and I certainly never played the BW expansion).
I say this to point out that I don't have the years of SCBW experience that many of you here will have, so I lack the knowledge of what made that game so popular, and so don't have it ingrained in me that SCBW is just better. I'm also a Silver League scrub, so my insights are certainly not geared towards playing the game (since I really have no clue what it's like to play at a high level). I'm concerning myself purely with what it's like to watch the game.
I decided to check out some SCBW VODs on youtube, as well as the SC2BW project VODs, and what I've seen is that there are a couple of things that were present in SCBW that are different/lacking in SC2. My impressions may not be entirely accurate (since I don't have the decade of experience of SCBW) but this is what jumped out to me.
1) Time Taken to Max
SCBW games seem to take a lot longer to reach max army, meaning that a lot of smaller engagements are the norm, rather than a few larger ones, especially in the early-to-mid game. This seems to give players a lot more scope to react to scouting information (since even if they lose the engagement, the resources and food lost are relatively small).
2) Tactical Options
SCBW seems to have a lot of units or abilities that make battles way more interesting to watch. A few Lurkers or Tanks can completely close an area down to ground units. Plague can make an overwhelming force of marines useless for a short period, buying time to get some reinforcements to the battle.
As Day[J] often says, it's very difficult to hold an area in SC2. I think this encourages less interesting tactics, beacause players know that they can eventually just push straight through, say, a Siege Tank line.
3) Pace and Swings
SCBW just feels like that little bit slower. Not in terms of how much is happening (there are dops and pushes all over the place, all the time), but in terms of how long it takes individual things to happen. Individual fights seem to take a long time, with units being microed back to keep them alive far more than happens in SC2. 1A Syndrome is a lot more prevalent in SC2. The tactical options that do exist in SC2 seem more focused on stopping an engagement from dragging out. FF can stop people running away or reinforcing, Fungal Growth, EMP and Banelings are designed to deal damage to a lot of units fast, quickening the pace of the engagement.
As well as the engagements themselves being over relatively quicklyin SC2, you can also often walk from base to base in 30-45 seconds, get a drop across the map in half that time, and generally change the entire flow of the game really quickly by taking out a mineral line or a few key production buildings.
NASL Week 1 Spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Just watch DDE v NaDa game 3 in week 1 of the NASL - DDE is well ahead and NaDa does a drop, taking out half of DDEs main base (including 7 barracks) in about 1 minute. 3 minutes later, NaDa has won the game, despite DDE looking like he was going to roll NaDa at the 23 minute mark.
In SCBW it seems that even if you do a drop or a push, it doesn't change things as much as quickly, so your opponent has time to react and you have to have something else planned to gain an advantage.
Conversely, if you're behind, in SCBW it's not all over. Because it takes a while for your opponent to kill you off, you have time to rally, to do something that will slowly turn the tides (and the tactical options mentioned earlier really come into play at this point).
Because of these things, SCBW games seem to last a lot longer than SC2 games.
4) Deathballs
It's obviously far easier in SC2 to get a deathball running, because the units clump together a lot better due to the improved pathfinding and infinite control groups. SCBW fights, by necessity, are vastly more spread-out affairs. This promotes a more cerebral playstyle. Players have to think more about how to best spread their units, how many they can attack a given area with, which units are best used where, and so on. In SC2 even top pros often just build up that deathball (perhaps with a drop or 2 somewhere else, and/or a small defensive force left behind to stop drops) and push through every confined space known to man. Sure, concaves and splash are important, but a single fight in SCBW could span 2 or 3 bases worth of map space.
Conclusion
A number of things seem to conspire to make SC2 games somewhat less interesting to watch than SCBW games, but what's really 'missing' is a good reason to play differently. SC2 encourages players to play in a way that is effective, but dull to watch.
There is a thread (Analysis of Macro) suggesting that reducing the mineral mining rate would benefit the game, and I have to say I'm tempted to agree. It would certainly slow the game down, and should encourage people to expand more, which would make deathballing more dangerous, as you could lose a valuable expansion if all your army is in one place and your opponent attacks elsewhere.
I honestly don't think mechanics are much of an issue. Having to click on gateways or High Templars individually doesn't make the game more interesting to watch. I'd rather watch a game where the best players were the ones who had good game sense and decision making than a game where the best players were just the ones with the fastest hands.
tl;dr - The game needs to reward non-deathball play a lot more than it does.
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EPT
