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[D] What SC2 is missing? - Page 42

Forum Index > SC2 General
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noidonthinkso
Profile Joined April 2011
Greece9 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-17 20:10:08
April 17 2011 20:10 GMT
#821
obv. its missing LAN. i do not miss anything else
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42381 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-17 20:14:41
April 17 2011 20:14 GMT
#822
mahnini, a question: do you think adding lurker to the game would change SC2 towards something you want to see? Do you think it would work out after all?
"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
Greem
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
730 Posts
April 17 2011 20:14 GMT
#823
I can compare BW with SC2 from strictly spectator point of view, sure i played some, but i only watched for entertainment, to see what real e-sport could feel like. SC2 got " 2 "for a reason, because the previous version were and most importantly IS, successful . So i agree with author that that deep things and dynamics were taken that i agree were important in success of BW. So at least as spectator and only as spectator i can say that BW combats felt kinda more "chessy". They difference may not be drastic , and its not, but author points remains, why take away those more exiting units / mechanics in exchange for what exactly ?

youtube.com/N0rthernL1ght
SlipperySnake
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
248 Posts
April 17 2011 20:20 GMT
#824
I think a lot of times the nostalgia for old games doesn't end up matching up to the reality of how great they were. Basically everything needs to be talked about in its time and I think that is the main problem with this discussion. That doesn't however mean that legitimate suggestions to improve the game should be ignored it just means that what makes an old game good isn't the same as what makes a new game good.

I feel the exact same way when I compare counterstrike 1.6 to well anything. Nothing compared but the damn game is 10 years old. It is kind of depressing because it really does feel like nothing will ever be as good. There have been other incredible shooters that are kind of comparable like TF2 but no matter how many of the good things a game tried to replicate from CS it just wouldn't be good as a modern game. Things like bunnyhopping and jump maps will just never be able to be replaced.

I am not saying you shouldn't try to improve SC2, I mean it is a hell of a sequel but sadly it will just never be the same.
BGrael
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany229 Posts
April 17 2011 20:28 GMT
#825
On April 18 2011 05:20 SlipperySnake wrote:
I think a lot of times the nostalgia for old games doesn't end up matching up to the reality of how great they were. Basically everything needs to be talked about in its time and I think that is the main problem with this discussion. That doesn't however mean that legitimate suggestions to improve the game should be ignored it just means that what makes an old game good isn't the same as what makes a new game good.

I feel the exact same way when I compare counterstrike 1.6 to well anything. Nothing compared but the damn game is 10 years old. It is kind of depressing because it really does feel like nothing will ever be as good. There have been other incredible shooters that are kind of comparable like TF2 but no matter how many of the good things a game tried to replicate from CS it just wouldn't be good as a modern game. Things like bunnyhopping and jump maps will just never be able to be replaced.

I am not saying you shouldn't try to improve SC2, I mean it is a hell of a sequel but sadly it will just never be the same.


I don't want to go back to SC:BW. At least certainly not playing. But there are things SC2 can learn from SC:BW. And those things are true for every RTS. Maybe it will never be the same from a personal point of view for many people. But it certainly can be as good as possbile.
Footler
Profile Joined January 2010
United States560 Posts
April 17 2011 20:28 GMT
#826
On April 18 2011 04:09 mahnini wrote:
i think people need to read beyond the bw comparison and notice that i think certain aspects of bw can be transplanted in sc2 to make it a more entertaining game to play and watch. it's like if i said (i'm pulling this comparison out my ass) halo could be more entertaining if it had the positioning that CS had. then i list CS matches in which position was really important and played a large role in the game, but then everyone gets mad at me for wanting halo to be exactly like CS.

i mean if you think adding more positionally important units like the lurker into the game is making it exactly like BW , that's just incorrect.


If you truly believe this you need to massively edit your OP as it is riddled with "sc2 needs the ancient BW mechanics that made it so spectacular to watch" because whether you intended to or not your are giving the impression that you believe things like smartcasting need to be removed to make storms more exciting or that zerglings need to have dumber pathing to be more exciting and essentially suggesting game design changes which you prohibit in the disclaimer yourself.

If you believe that all sc2 needs is just more units with setup time and more interesting spellcasters (which I agree with), you failed miserably in making that clear in your OP and by leaving the OP unedited you are allowing this thread to continue to derail into BW vs SC2 thread.
I am The-Sink! Parting bandwagoner before it became a soul train.
Greem
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
730 Posts
April 17 2011 20:31 GMT
#827
On April 18 2011 05:20 SlipperySnake wrote:
I think a lot of times the nostalgia for old games doesn't end up matching up to the reality of how great they were. Basically everything needs to be talked about in its time and I think that is the main problem with this discussion. That doesn't however mean that legitimate suggestions to improve the game should be ignored it just means that what makes an old game good isn't the same as what makes a new game good.

I feel the exact same way when I compare counterstrike 1.6 to well anything. Nothing compared but the damn game is 10 years old. It is kind of depressing because it really does feel like nothing will ever be as good. There have been other incredible shooters that are kind of comparable like TF2 but no matter how many of the good things a game tried to replicate from CS it just wouldn't be good as a modern game. Things like bunnyhopping and jump maps will just never be able to be replaced.

I am not saying you shouldn't try to improve SC2, I mean it is a hell of a sequel but sadly it will just never be the same.


ye , you're right, it won't be the same, but its a sequel and not a completely new game, the feeling and depths should be improved if possible, but last things you do, its remove something, in my opinion.

I'd still play SC2 and ill keep playing, its just as i understand we all wanna play more exiting game.
youtube.com/N0rthernL1ght
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
April 17 2011 20:33 GMT
#828
On April 18 2011 05:28 Footler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2011 04:09 mahnini wrote:
i think people need to read beyond the bw comparison and notice that i think certain aspects of bw can be transplanted in sc2 to make it a more entertaining game to play and watch. it's like if i said (i'm pulling this comparison out my ass) halo could be more entertaining if it had the positioning that CS had. then i list CS matches in which position was really important and played a large role in the game, but then everyone gets mad at me for wanting halo to be exactly like CS.

i mean if you think adding more positionally important units like the lurker into the game is making it exactly like BW , that's just incorrect.


If you truly believe this you need to massively edit your OP as it is riddled with "sc2 needs the ancient BW mechanics that made it so spectacular to watch" because whether you intended to or not your are giving the impression that you believe things like smartcasting need to be removed to make storms more exciting or that zerglings need to have dumber pathing to be more exciting and essentially suggesting game design changes which you prohibit in the disclaimer yourself.

If you believe that all sc2 needs is just more units with setup time and more interesting spellcasters (which I agree with), you failed miserably in making that clear in your OP and by leaving the OP unedited you are allowing this thread to continue to derail into BW vs SC2 thread.

i'm not going to edit out a valid point just because it makes people feel bad. i never said anything about pathing at all. i never suggest direct game design changes.

i don't think i encourage bw vs sc2 discussion in the OP at all, but if you think so please point out some examples.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
cereals
Profile Joined March 2011
United States12 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-17 20:35:37
April 17 2011 20:34 GMT
#829
On April 18 2011 04:26 mahnini wrote:
it's a slightly ironic turnaround in which i'm trying to provide suggestions to improve sc2 and everyone just attacks me for being a bw purist and at the same time argues for the sanctity of sc2 to not be like bw.


If I were to criticize your OP a little, I think you could evaluate on this a little more:

Even staple units were replaced by less interesting, less interactive versions of themselves. Colossus vs reaver? Baneling vs lurker? Viking vs wraith? Thor vs goliath? Phoenix vs corsair? Immortal vs dragoon? Muta vs muta? Hydra vs hydra? There's just no contest.


To me, that's the most "BW vs SC2" you got in your OP. And if you're going to evaluate them, also edit it into your OP, it'll help with the "BW vs SC2" image in your OP people are complaining about.

I'll actually be really happy if you could provide suggestions as to how to improve existing units instead of comparing them to their closest BW equivalent, because i've never played BW, and BW VODS don't really make any sense to me (yes, I casual, I admit).

I hope i'm not asking for too much.

edit: typos
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
April 17 2011 20:35 GMT
#830
On April 18 2011 04:09 mahnini wrote:
i mean if you think adding more positionally important units like the lurker into the game is making it exactly like BW , that's just incorrect.


Terrans have the siege tank, and you said that's good.

Zerg have the spine/spore crawler, which works exactly like you want (long setup time, can create fortified positions, great at defending expos, especially with a queen that has energy). Now, you can say that the Spine Crawler doesn't serve this role well enough, in which case maybe a buff should be considered. But that's not what you said. You said there's a "fundamental flaw" that they units don't exist. They DO exist, they're just not used enough because a.) Metagame or b.) needs moar HP, or c.) a combination of the two (though Spanishiwa is using them more, and I do expect them to catch on. Zero supply units that have 300 HP, do pretty good DPS, and are mobile?) That's not a "fundamental flaw", though.

Protoss is the only race that lacks such a unit, and they shouldn't have one because they have the strongest ball already (they didn't have one in BW, and their static D was weaker).
Footler
Profile Joined January 2010
United States560 Posts
April 17 2011 20:38 GMT
#831
On April 18 2011 05:33 mahnini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2011 05:28 Footler wrote:
On April 18 2011 04:09 mahnini wrote:
i think people need to read beyond the bw comparison and notice that i think certain aspects of bw can be transplanted in sc2 to make it a more entertaining game to play and watch. it's like if i said (i'm pulling this comparison out my ass) halo could be more entertaining if it had the positioning that CS had. then i list CS matches in which position was really important and played a large role in the game, but then everyone gets mad at me for wanting halo to be exactly like CS.

i mean if you think adding more positionally important units like the lurker into the game is making it exactly like BW , that's just incorrect.


If you truly believe this you need to massively edit your OP as it is riddled with "sc2 needs the ancient BW mechanics that made it so spectacular to watch" because whether you intended to or not your are giving the impression that you believe things like smartcasting need to be removed to make storms more exciting or that zerglings need to have dumber pathing to be more exciting and essentially suggesting game design changes which you prohibit in the disclaimer yourself.

If you believe that all sc2 needs is just more units with setup time and more interesting spellcasters (which I agree with), you failed miserably in making that clear in your OP and by leaving the OP unedited you are allowing this thread to continue to derail into BW vs SC2 thread.

i'm not going to edit out a valid point just because it makes people feel bad. i never said anything about pathing at all. i never suggest direct game design changes.

i don't think i encourage bw vs sc2 discussion in the OP at all, but if you think so please point out some examples.


This maybe?

"Psi storm vs psi storm? A psi storm in SC2 is almost meaningless. In BW, the beauty of psi storm was purely because of the mechanics required to cast it."
I am The-Sink! Parting bandwagoner before it became a soul train.
SpectreSOF
Profile Joined July 2010
United States74 Posts
April 17 2011 20:47 GMT
#832
A lot of the things that were brought up in the OP have their roots in SC2's simplified mechanics, especially in regards to spell casters, but frankly I don't see blizzard doing anything to alter that ever. Simply put with smart casting watching a player drop multiple storms during a huge battle will simple never look as impressive knowing how much less work it took to cast them. And on a related note I too lament the presence of "micro-nullifying" spells like force field and fungal growth. When these spells go off there is little for the player on the receiving end of the spell to do other than throw up their hands in disgust.

But maybe we'll have new places to look for player mechanics to shine through. SC2 units propensity to bunch up more could be one such place. Perhaps in the future it will become vitally important for pros to manually control their armies as though there was still a 12 unit selection limit for the purposes of keeping an army spread out to avoid devastating AoE units and abilities. Maybe not.

As for map control, I feel its still in the game, just in a different form. Especially for Zerg, the spreading and denying of creep tumors is vital. Where there is creep present a Zerg army can be also present in very short order. Not to mention we really haven't seen much Nydus worm play for some reason, and its something that arguably strongly undermines the idea of ground based map control. Protoss on the other hand almost completely circumvents map control in general. Where there is a pylon there is a Protoss army in the making, add to that toss has blink and cliff walking colossi makes trying to apply map control as we know it from BW very difficult. Terran probably still has the form of map control most familiar from BW, but then again Terran still has the siege tank from BW. But faced with the increased mobility of the other two armies, presence of sensor towers and the fact that tanks now cost 3 supply means there are fewer tanks on the field to effectively cover areas where T wants control and is much better for T to make better use of map awareness to concentrate their defenses.
The road to victory is a path paved with blood and corpses
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
April 17 2011 20:58 GMT
#833
Great post mahnini. I Agree with all this stuff mostly. I don't know what else to add really, except that zerg got an especially short-end of a stick when it comes to ability use and map presence also. No more lurkers, and only 1 spell commonly cast (even then, it's not so common), only 1 to 3 others somewhat used. Zerg play out most of their games without casting a single spell, or possibly even using any ability (aside from detonate and inject).

Protoss I'd say isn't too different in a map presence sense from starcraft 1 in my opinion. Reavers weren't any more of a siege unit than colossus were. They were almost always used with shuttles which made them even more mobile— the main difference with reavers is that they actually took good skill to use well, and could do so much damage with good skill, or none at all with bad skill; colossus is just mostly an a-move unit that even has longer range and faster speed I think it's one of the bigger problems with starcraft 2 with regards to units/gameplay (another is the corruptor, which has a terrible special ability, and is a unit with extremely narrow use).
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-17 21:00:48
April 17 2011 20:59 GMT
#834
On April 18 2011 05:33 mahnini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2011 05:28 Footler wrote:
On April 18 2011 04:09 mahnini wrote:
i think people need to read beyond the bw comparison and notice that i think certain aspects of bw can be transplanted in sc2 to make it a more entertaining game to play and watch. it's like if i said (i'm pulling this comparison out my ass) halo could be more entertaining if it had the positioning that CS had. then i list CS matches in which position was really important and played a large role in the game, but then everyone gets mad at me for wanting halo to be exactly like CS.

i mean if you think adding more positionally important units like the lurker into the game is making it exactly like BW , that's just incorrect.


If you truly believe this you need to massively edit your OP as it is riddled with "sc2 needs the ancient BW mechanics that made it so spectacular to watch" because whether you intended to or not your are giving the impression that you believe things like smartcasting need to be removed to make storms more exciting or that zerglings need to have dumber pathing to be more exciting and essentially suggesting game design changes which you prohibit in the disclaimer yourself.

If you believe that all sc2 needs is just more units with setup time and more interesting spellcasters (which I agree with), you failed miserably in making that clear in your OP and by leaving the OP unedited you are allowing this thread to continue to derail into BW vs SC2 thread.

i'm not going to edit out a valid point just because it makes people feel bad. i never said anything about pathing at all. i never suggest direct game design changes.

i don't think i encourage bw vs sc2 discussion in the OP at all, but if you think so please point out some examples.



Have you noticed that during SC2 battle commentators can't say anything other than, "SO MUCH STUFF IS DYING!!", it's because there's nothing for players to do during fights other than pull back damaged units. There's no clutch psi storms, elegant spine dodging, ruthless zealot bombing, flyby reavers, or gross surrounds. It's a variation of 1a vs another variation of 1a.


This? Seems very much like opinion based "BW vs SC2" to me. There's sick ling counters to pure stalker builds, baneling bombs, forcefielding baneling bombs to keep them from his units, great reinforcement intercepts, multipronged zerg swarms, elegant marine vs baneling micro, Thorzain vs Tyler strike cannons (hope to se more of them), EMP's vs Feedback, Mech terran hellion micro against Protoss deathball, Phoenix sniping ghosts and much more. Saying it's just 1a vs 1a is hyperbole and leads to people getting annoyed by the, to me at least, obvious BW bias of the OP.
Cranberries
Profile Joined July 2010
Wales567 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-17 21:12:27
April 17 2011 21:07 GMT
#835
It's missing diverse quarter and semi finals and finals in most cases.

Ergo, it's missing zerg.

By the way, it's an actual fact. The game does miss some degree of diversity. Nearly every single match up is dumbed down to 1 player using 1 strategy.

PVZ : Protoss turtles for deathball, or tries to cheese.
PVT: Protoss turtles for deathball
PVP: 4 gate > blink, 3 gate > robo

ZVT: Muta/Ling/Bane > Infestor + Brood mix
ZVP: Roach/Infestor/Brood mix
ZVZ: high early game aggression or 2/3 base roach/infestor mix

TVT: tank/marine~
TVP: Bio w/ late mech
TVZ: tank/marine~
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
April 17 2011 21:08 GMT
#836
On April 18 2011 05:59 karpo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2011 05:33 mahnini wrote:
On April 18 2011 05:28 Footler wrote:
On April 18 2011 04:09 mahnini wrote:
i think people need to read beyond the bw comparison and notice that i think certain aspects of bw can be transplanted in sc2 to make it a more entertaining game to play and watch. it's like if i said (i'm pulling this comparison out my ass) halo could be more entertaining if it had the positioning that CS had. then i list CS matches in which position was really important and played a large role in the game, but then everyone gets mad at me for wanting halo to be exactly like CS.

i mean if you think adding more positionally important units like the lurker into the game is making it exactly like BW , that's just incorrect.


If you truly believe this you need to massively edit your OP as it is riddled with "sc2 needs the ancient BW mechanics that made it so spectacular to watch" because whether you intended to or not your are giving the impression that you believe things like smartcasting need to be removed to make storms more exciting or that zerglings need to have dumber pathing to be more exciting and essentially suggesting game design changes which you prohibit in the disclaimer yourself.

If you believe that all sc2 needs is just more units with setup time and more interesting spellcasters (which I agree with), you failed miserably in making that clear in your OP and by leaving the OP unedited you are allowing this thread to continue to derail into BW vs SC2 thread.

i'm not going to edit out a valid point just because it makes people feel bad. i never said anything about pathing at all. i never suggest direct game design changes.

i don't think i encourage bw vs sc2 discussion in the OP at all, but if you think so please point out some examples.


Show nested quote +

Have you noticed that during SC2 battle commentators can't say anything other than, "SO MUCH STUFF IS DYING!!", it's because there's nothing for players to do during fights other than pull back damaged units. There's no clutch psi storms, elegant spine dodging, ruthless zealot bombing, flyby reavers, or gross surrounds. It's a variation of 1a vs another variation of 1a.


This? Seems very much like opinion based "BW vs SC2" to me. There's sick ling counters to pure stalker builds, baneling bombs, forcefielding baneling bombs to keep them from his units, great reinforcement intercepts, multipronged zerg swarms, elegant marine vs baneling micro, Thorzain vs Tyler strike cannons (hope to se more of them), EMP's vs Feedback, Mech terran hellion micro against Protoss deathball, Phoenix sniping ghosts and much more. Saying it's just 1a vs 1a is hyperbole and leads to people getting annoyed by the, to me at least, obvious BW bias of the OP.

i will edit out the 1a vs 1a. the rest can be discussed with civility. by bw vs sc2 i dont mean you can't compare and contrast the two games, i mean you can't do stupid crap like call bw an old clickfest and call sc2 a dumbed down super newb game. i like to think that we can discuss the differences without delving into ridiculous bickering.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
AphureA
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1 Post
April 17 2011 21:11 GMT
#837
To give my 2 cents, as a Warcraft 3 player I always saw Brood War to be a bit like Chess. It was awesome watching this elongated game of players trying to out-maneuver one another, doing interesting forks and and unique gambits. The whole game was about trying to make the perfect set up. It feels like that with Starcraft 2, they looked at Chess and said; "Isn't it great in Chess how the players trade like 6 pieces in a row and one comes out ahead? Let's make a game about that." They took away all the foreplay, and that's what made it good.
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-17 21:20:10
April 17 2011 21:14 GMT
#838
On April 18 2011 05:35 Ribbon wrote:
Zerg have the spine/spore crawler, which works exactly like you want (long setup time, can create fortified positions, great at defending expos, especially with a queen that has energy). Now, you can say that the Spine Crawler doesn't serve this role well enough, in which case maybe a buff should be considered.
Spine/spore crawlers are not map control units. They are early game defense units. They have range 7 so they get out-ranged by colossus and siege tanks by the mid game, and because they are armored they also get dominated by marauders and immortals and void rays. They can also only be placed on creep, but because they are only useful early game anyway so that isn't even a big factor.
On April 18 2011 05:47 SpectreSOF wrote:
we really haven't seen much Nydus worm play for some reason, and its something that arguably strongly undermines the idea of ground based map control

it hasn't bee used much because it's not that good. The biggest issue is the combination of time it takes to build along with it's armor/health.
If a player spots a nydus worm building when it's already halfway done, they can pull 9 workers and STILL kill it in time. Good players have buildings all around their area to keep an eye out for attacks, it completely denies nydus worms since all you need is a few units fresh out from the production facility — or just workers even — to kill the worm.Nydus networks and worms also cost a lot. Just 1 worm costs more than transport tech for overlords, the only downside with overlords is it takes a bit longer to get.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
karpo
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden1998 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-17 21:23:07
April 17 2011 21:14 GMT
#839
On April 18 2011 06:08 mahnini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2011 05:59 karpo wrote:
On April 18 2011 05:33 mahnini wrote:
On April 18 2011 05:28 Footler wrote:
On April 18 2011 04:09 mahnini wrote:
i think people need to read beyond the bw comparison and notice that i think certain aspects of bw can be transplanted in sc2 to make it a more entertaining game to play and watch. it's like if i said (i'm pulling this comparison out my ass) halo could be more entertaining if it had the positioning that CS had. then i list CS matches in which position was really important and played a large role in the game, but then everyone gets mad at me for wanting halo to be exactly like CS.

i mean if you think adding more positionally important units like the lurker into the game is making it exactly like BW , that's just incorrect.


If you truly believe this you need to massively edit your OP as it is riddled with "sc2 needs the ancient BW mechanics that made it so spectacular to watch" because whether you intended to or not your are giving the impression that you believe things like smartcasting need to be removed to make storms more exciting or that zerglings need to have dumber pathing to be more exciting and essentially suggesting game design changes which you prohibit in the disclaimer yourself.

If you believe that all sc2 needs is just more units with setup time and more interesting spellcasters (which I agree with), you failed miserably in making that clear in your OP and by leaving the OP unedited you are allowing this thread to continue to derail into BW vs SC2 thread.

i'm not going to edit out a valid point just because it makes people feel bad. i never said anything about pathing at all. i never suggest direct game design changes.

i don't think i encourage bw vs sc2 discussion in the OP at all, but if you think so please point out some examples.



Have you noticed that during SC2 battle commentators can't say anything other than, "SO MUCH STUFF IS DYING!!", it's because there's nothing for players to do during fights other than pull back damaged units. There's no clutch psi storms, elegant spine dodging, ruthless zealot bombing, flyby reavers, or gross surrounds. It's a variation of 1a vs another variation of 1a.


This? Seems very much like opinion based "BW vs SC2" to me. There's sick ling counters to pure stalker builds, baneling bombs, forcefielding baneling bombs to keep them from his units, great reinforcement intercepts, multipronged zerg swarms, elegant marine vs baneling micro, Thorzain vs Tyler strike cannons (hope to se more of them), EMP's vs Feedback, Mech terran hellion micro against Protoss deathball, Phoenix sniping ghosts and much more. Saying it's just 1a vs 1a is hyperbole and leads to people getting annoyed by the, to me at least, obvious BW bias of the OP.

i will edit out the 1a vs 1a. the rest can be discussed with civility. by bw vs sc2 i dont mean you can't compare and contrast the two games, i mean you can't do stupid crap like call bw an old clickfest and call sc2 a dumbed down super newb game. i like to think that we can discuss the differences without delving into ridiculous bickering.


I still think that your list of cool BW stuff is a moot point due to there being loads of cool SC2 stuff happening in games also like some of the stuff i listed. I guess there's alot of games where players just attack eachother, but it seems like we see that less and less as the players improve. That list bugs me cause it more or less reads "Please reply with counter argument in favor of SC2!", it might just be me though.

I agree with the positional play and slowing down game pace and i hope we get more of those kinds of abilities/units in the expansions.

Also:


The sweet irony is that, if multiple unit selection was implemented in BW, battles would still be more interesting and impressive than SC2 battles simply because of unit dynamics. You can't just 1a BW units and have then attack at full effectiveness.


Hyperbole and untrue. This also adds to the BW vs SC2 flames cause you more or less just state that BW battles are better than SC2 AND that 1A is great in SC2. Attack-move in SC2 is more or less NEVER the best thing to do. It's never the most effective way to attack even if it's deathball vs deathball.

You've been given several points from me and other posters about this, do you still think your OP doesn't encourage BW vs SC2 discussion?
Skew
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States1019 Posts
April 17 2011 21:18 GMT
#840
On April 18 2011 05:38 Footler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2011 05:33 mahnini wrote:
On April 18 2011 05:28 Footler wrote:
On April 18 2011 04:09 mahnini wrote:
i think people need to read beyond the bw comparison and notice that i think certain aspects of bw can be transplanted in sc2 to make it a more entertaining game to play and watch. it's like if i said (i'm pulling this comparison out my ass) halo could be more entertaining if it had the positioning that CS had. then i list CS matches in which position was really important and played a large role in the game, but then everyone gets mad at me for wanting halo to be exactly like CS.

i mean if you think adding more positionally important units like the lurker into the game is making it exactly like BW , that's just incorrect.


If you truly believe this you need to massively edit your OP as it is riddled with "sc2 needs the ancient BW mechanics that made it so spectacular to watch" because whether you intended to or not your are giving the impression that you believe things like smartcasting need to be removed to make storms more exciting or that zerglings need to have dumber pathing to be more exciting and essentially suggesting game design changes which you prohibit in the disclaimer yourself.

If you believe that all sc2 needs is just more units with setup time and more interesting spellcasters (which I agree with), you failed miserably in making that clear in your OP and by leaving the OP unedited you are allowing this thread to continue to derail into BW vs SC2 thread.

i'm not going to edit out a valid point just because it makes people feel bad. i never said anything about pathing at all. i never suggest direct game design changes.

i don't think i encourage bw vs sc2 discussion in the OP at all, but if you think so please point out some examples.


This maybe?

"Psi storm vs psi storm? A psi storm in SC2 is almost meaningless. In BW, the beauty of psi storm was purely because of the mechanics required to cast it."


So you get excited watching people play checkers, that's nice.

Great post.
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