EPT[D] What SC2 is missing? - Page 32
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12023 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:04 mahnini wrote: i am interpreting most of the people who say "give it time" to mean the players will figure something out as opposed to "it will be added eventually". if you believe the latter i don't disagree with you. I personally feel it's a mix of both. It's clear they're adding new units with HoTS just like they did with Broodwar and before then I'm sure players will figure more stuff out. | ||
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:01 Boblion wrote: Do you even know that Sc2 has already got more balance patches than Sc + bw ? Are you counting beta patches? | ||
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tl01234
3 Posts
Stop trying to make SC2 into SC1 you old school, low graphics loving, emo outcast. | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:07 tl01234 wrote: Wow QQ less it's a new game jesus christ. If you don't like it go play SC1. Stop trying to make SC2 into SC1 you old school, low graphics loving, emo outcast. This thread is a discussion on what could make sc2 better and turn it into an even better ESPORT, your post is counterintuitive of what this thread seeks to accomplish, I hope you and your alt(I presume you made an alt just to post this) gets banned. Good day. Also the amount of misinformation in this thread is hilarious, sc2 guys dont talk about bw like you know everything, implying boxer was the best at bw and stuff like that, and bw guys don't just blindy hate sc2. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On April 17 2011 06:07 Frozenhelfire wrote: Anyone in their right mind expects the games to get better with time. The most annoying part about the 'give it time' argument is that no matter how much time you give SC2, there will still be no way for a zerg to micro against colossus. They outrange every ground unit and deal massive, unavoidable damage. I don't know about this colossus damage nerf you are talking about, but I am interested. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2566610#blog Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. This is perhaps the 1.3 patch change that was most discussed by the community and we wanted to take some to time to explain the rationale behind it. Ultimately, there were two reasons we wanted to remove this item. We felt this upgrade reduced strategic choice. When combined with stalker or charge zealot warp-ins, this upgrade made it nearly impossible to do any sort of harassment attack anywhere there was a pylon. We didn’t like the reduction in strategic options, as the opponent could only fight major battles with protoss in the late game. We felt late game protoss splash damage was slightly overpowered. This applies both to high templars and colossi. We felt that if we were to nerf both of these units protoss may end up too weak in the late game. Therefore, we decided to adjust high templars first and see how the game plays out. As we’ve mentioned many times before, we feel it’s safer to take small steps in making balance changes than making drastic changes to an entire race. Blizz has said that Colossus damage is OP, but that this was exacerbated by the ability of Protoss to warp in storms and be un-harrassable. In order to properly adjust the Collosus, they had to make it easier to harass a protoss by attacking where the Colossi weren't, and see how that played out. Even though everyone hates the Colo, there's a fine line between OP and so worthless that toss becomes unplayable, so Blizz felt they needed more data of just the Colo being overpowered before they could decide how to nerf it. That it'll be a nerf to damage specifically is more of an assumption on my part, but they said it was the damage of the Colo that was the OP part, so I think it's a safe assumption. Spine crawlers are good until the first colossus is out. People didn't shy away from static D in BW. I've seen many savior, and other high level zerg games that utilized a lot of sunkens to block bio timing attacks. The static defense is also somewhat weaker than it was in BW. Sure the spines can move, but sunkens didn't have to worry about stimmed marauders flooring it in a few seconds. Sunkens had to worry most about tanks and reavers, both of which required setup time in one way or another. Sunkens also built faster if I'm not mistaken. Don't get me wrong... I think spines will turn out to be more interesting, but units just MELT buildings in SC2 compared to BW. Possibly. We'll see how it plays out as spines become more used. It takes a while for Colossi to kill spines, and if "a while" is "enough time to remax", then it's worth it. If spines/spores DO turn out to be too weak, then they can be buffed. It's not a "fundamental flaw" if they don't serve the role of controlling space well, it's just that they need some numbers increased. Spines and queens as defense (Spanishiwa style) hard counter both 1-base air openings (because Queens are actually really really really strong anti-air, especially for their cost), and sentry FF cheese (because spines and Transfuse don't care about force fields, and the amount of sentries you need gets gigglestomped by a decent number of spines, while being economically sound and safeish against a 4gate. So I expect to see it more and more in ZvP, because Protoss have yet to figure out how to solve it without gambling on a cannon rush not getting scouted (I see some Terrans thinking about 5 rax reapers again as a response, but we'll see if that works at a pro level). Even if it's a Sometimes Build, we'll see pro-gamers with 3 spine crawlers lying around, and they'll start thinking about how to use them late game. Spines synergize well with Infestors, too, because mass infestor is weak to drops, but has minerals to spare on the static D. Spines are better against Infantry than Sunkens were, because Spines did 25 damage, and Sunkens did 40 explosive (in SC2 terms: 20, +10 to Medium, +20 to large). Counting the creep colony, Sunkens took 40 real seconds to make, compared to 50 blizzard seconds for Spines, so build time is about the same. Spine crawlers are also slightly cheaper (Spine: 100 Minerals + Drone, Sunken: 75 Minerals for the creep colony, plus 50 to morph it, equals 125 minerals plus drone). Spines can also relocate. Marauders are good against Spines, but a.) They cost about to same (150 vs 100/25), and one spine beats one marauder, or two marauders if you get a good transfuse off), and b.) Marauders aren't the most common units in TvZ Spines may or may not need a buff to serve to space controlling role, but they work well in theory and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them that could be fixed by increasing some numbers. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
Maybe I'm over emphasizing tanks, but I really think that those kinds of games are interesting to watch, and P and Z seem to have less ways to make those kinds of games happen in my opinion. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On April 17 2011 07:31 IntoTheWow wrote: Yeah, and that's why those players are in the ro16 of the TSL and people who micro smoothly like you are not. It might not be my place to say, but is this really worthy posting from a moderator? Seems almost trollish to me, of course he must know that grouping up units by hotkeys is something beneficial in SC2 just as it was in BW. We still see alot of bad micro and unit control i SC2 and one control group-syndrome is something Tastosis mention when it happens in the GSL. After checking some high level matches i've seen alot of games where the players use at least 2-3 unit hotkeys. Many seem to prefer to box-select their units though, as players like Supernova didn't have all his marines in one control group, but had groups for siege tanks and medivacs. | ||
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Pokeymans
Canada6 Posts
When I used to play SC1 I could play all day and have fun. I could play game after game and the time would fly and I would be able to play for hours almost always wanting more. With SC2, even when I have lots of free time I find myself not wanting to play too many games in a row. I will play 3-5, win or lose doesnt matter, and then think to myself "okay that was alright, let me go do something else now". Something about the gameplay doesnt hold me like SC1 did. I actually like the MBS and the improvements to the interface, so thats all good, but something about how the game flows doesnt keep my attention very long. | ||
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aurum510
United States229 Posts
On April 17 2011 07:32 DoubleReed wrote: And watch all those 1A terrans get crushed by infestors, banelings, colossi, and storm. I have never seen 1a armies be just as efficient as multi-control group armies. I have no idea what you're talking about. How about Thors vs Muta? That certainly punishes poorly controlled mutas. Also, as I said before, the control groups does not mean he is 1Aing. He could be controlling units individually without control groups. It's not like that's completely unheard of. All zerg players have lost to 1Aing terran players. You can do just fine 1Aing when you have 30 siege tanks behind you to evaporate everything. Nobody even makes high templar anymore. Why make HTs when you can get colossi which require 4 APM per battle to use. And Infestors usually die after getting 1 fungal growth off (9 range vs 9 range colossi and 13 range tanks). All the games today in the TSL had players 1Aing... Thors vs muta, literally ONE action and my mutas are properly micro'd against thors. Magic box them once and you're good to go. Once you have big stupid starcraft 2 armies where you can't even tell what's going on, you're 1Aing to victory. Sure you may be burrowing some roaches under forcefields or something, but they're all in one control group and you're just pressing R twice. I still count that as 1Aing. Same goes for armies with 20 sentries where you can just close your eyes and press F and left click over and over and win. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:23 aurum510 wrote: All zerg players have lost to 1Aing terran players. You can do just fine 1Aing when you have 30 siege tanks behind you to evaporate everything. Nobody even makes high templar anymore. Why make HTs when you can get colossi which require 4 APM per battle to use. And Infestors usually die after getting 1 fungal growth off (9 range vs 9 range colossi and 13 range tanks). All the games today in the TSL had players 1Aing... Thors vs muta, literally ONE action and my mutas are properly micro'd against thors. Magic box them once and you're good to go. Once you have big stupid starcraft 2 armies where you can't even tell what's going on, you're 1Aing to victory. Sure you may be burrowing some roaches under forcefields or something, but they're all in one control group and you're just pressing R twice. I still count that as 1Aing. Same goes for armies with 20 sentries where you can just close your eyes and press F and left click over and over and win. Exaggerations are cool, bro! 30 siege tanks is 90 supply, sounds a bit far fetched that any terran could mass that amount safely. Colossus needing 4 APM sounds far fetched too. MC made templars against Idra just a few days ago at Dreamhack so that statement is false. Burrowing all roaches isn't really optimal so that's not true either. Claiming that force fields require no though is also blatantly untrue. Great work making a post exaggerating every single thing you could think of in SC2. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
People could argue bias against me but i'd be very very happy to see an RTS video that compares to this: and i'd love to see it whatever game it was. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:32 infinity2k9 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + By the way one thing i almost forgot; all anyone has to do in the micro argument is to post the Flash vs Bisu on HBR video as argument against anything SC2 provides. Cause that is seriously incredible stuff on both sides, like amazing. Probably my favourite game in terms of micro, maybe Jaedong Vs Leta on Outsider being a good second to it (Wraith vs muta at it's best). If you can watch those and still say SC2 is as good i don't know what to say to you to be honest... you're just set in one mindset i guess. People could argue bias against me but i'd be very very happy to see an RTS video that compares to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqsSrWZciY0 and i'd love to see it whatever game it was. I've played my fair share of SC BW but that video really doesn't impress me. Know why? Cause it's just alot of stuff happening to me. I guess it's very, very hard to do but to me it doesn't look interesting at all. I believe that it's hard for many non hardcore BW fans to appreciate stuff like the video you posted. Just to make a comparison, something like this is easy to tell that it's hard as hell and impressive. I just don't feel impressed watching that BW vid. | ||
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Jukebox Joe
United Kingdom358 Posts
The one thing I wish SC2 took from BW is the length of battles. BW had long, running battles, and the majority of SC2 at the minute is big build up followed by a big 10 second battle that decides it. Again, this is something that could change with time. Just watched the Spanishwa v Cruncher game and that had a pretty decent ongoing battle with the 4gate. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
Great, great post. Well written, you showed your point very well i must say. Thanks Might have been asked before, but what do you think mahnini: would adding lurker(for example) change the game towards something you are missing while watching SC2? | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
The colossus is a very boring unit that could've been very interesting with just changes to numbers. If the colossus moved and fired at 50% the rate it currently does I think it would be a much more interesting unit (with a damage increas to make it the same overall dps). If the rate of fire were slow enough it could make it very easy to micro out of - but the point is that while doing that you're taking damage from the death ball of stalkers. It would still retain mobility in a form of being able to go up and down cliffs, but it would force the protoss to either position very well or use warp prisms in a similar fashion to reaver and shuttle micro. The one thing I really miss in sc2 is zerglings. SC2 Zerglings are so useless compared to their sc1 equivalent and it really makes zvp have a much different feel. They attack absurdly slow and seem to deal 0 damage to anything. Zerglings were a huge part of why PvZ could feel very imbalanced towards the zerg... the issue is twofold, really. Stalkers do extra damage to light, meaning they actually are good vs lings while dragoons vs zerglings is a complete no contest... the ball composition toss are aiming for is just mass stalkers and a few collossus. Zerg has no real answer to this besides a perfect unit composition vs it. It seems to discourage toss from having to think about unit composition - if zerg gets buffed in some fashion, I would really prefer to see lings get buffed as opposed to some weird t3 or t2.5 buff. Forcefields are another major issue - but they are a major issue that can really be handled in four ways. They could be removed from the game, have numbers tweaked, or be unplaceable on ramps. The number tweaking may be better - it lasts an absurd amount of time and i dont know how many games i've played where i had to wait at someone's ramp while they forcefield it 5-6x in a row. Rare is the battle that ever outlasts a forcefield... which kind of signals that yes, they last far too long. Removing them from the game seems like a last resort option. Making them unplaceable on a ramp would solve certain issues but ignore many others. (The way this would essentially be handled is that you would make it only possible to place forcefields in buildable spots. So you could create a wall-in with 3 forcefields rather than 1. A fourth way is to allow the opposing player to destroy the forcefields. Give them 30 shields or some other quantity and make them not be targeted by the ai. This makes them just as good in large engagements and still potent but makes them counterable by something other than air units or burrow roaches... which move too slow to really be effective vs forcefield. Of course, the numbers on this could be altered a lot. | ||
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Apoth
England194 Posts
 Although I think many of these things will be resolved purely over time. We have two expansions to go. If we loook at vanilla Starcraft 8 months or even a few years after release, no-one had really gotten that far. Obviously, Starcraft 2 is being explored at an increased rate because of the great size of the community and past experience, we undoubtely have miles to go. One of the contributing factors to your point here i believe is something Day9 once pulled attention to. He said he could have 3 lurkers at a ramp and due to pathing stop infinity marines. Pathing in starcraft 2 is so wonderful and smooth, pushing into a fortified position becomes easier than in BW, possiblywith the expetion of 20 odd siege tanks and mass force field play, which so far we are yet to solve due to the strength of forcefields and the smart shooting of the new siege tanks. Battles may not last as long, but in some games (for examples see assaults on golds on Xel Naga) still require immense positioning and posturing. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:37 karpo wrote: I've played my fair share of SC BW but that video really doesn't impress me. Know why? Cause it's just alot of stuff happening to me. I guess it's very, very hard to do but to me it doesn't look interesting at all. I believe that it's hard for many non hardcore BW fans to appreciate stuff like the video you posted. If you can't appreciate it how can you even appreciate anything in Starcraft? Do you appreciate someone just going a certain unit combo and attack moving or what? Obviously it has tons of casual appeal cause you can hear the audience members actually impressed at whats going on, and BW in Korea has tons of non-playing fans. Watch the dragoon control. You think they are auto moving back and targeting those mines? All while he is macroing more units at the same time. Its blatantly obvious what is happening, the sprites and everything that is happening (prehaps besides Dark Swarm) is very obvious in BW. To deny it and claim you have no idea what is going on, despite being an SC2 viewer, is being deliberately ignorant. I can tell what's going on in any RTS vod cause of my BW viewing experience, to claim you have no idea why this is impressive is just bullshitting to support your viewpoint. The people who just keep claiming 'time will solve things' for a over a year now are the most funny. How exactly will a unit like the Thor for example gain some kind of unique micro opportunity? In case you hadn't notice things are not like 2000 BW. People have the mechanics to do absolutely anything possible in this game from the outset; In 2000 people couldn't even control defilers effectively due to lack of APM. | ||
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aurum510
United States229 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:31 karpo wrote: Exaggerations are cool, bro! 30 siege tanks is 90 supply, sounds a bit far fetched that any terran could mass that amount safely. Colossus needing 4 APM sounds far fetched too. MC made templars against Idra just a few days ago at Dreamhack so that statement is false. Burrowing all roaches isn't really optimal so that's not true either. Claiming that force fields require no though is also blatantly untrue. Great work making a post exaggerating every single thing you could think of in SC2. 3 factory terran takes 7.5 minutes game time to get 30 tanks... It's not an exaggeration. It happens in every ZvT. Watch some Jinro ZvT games and see what you find. And MC making HTs once in all the games you've ever seen him play means nothing. And I just watched Morrow select ALL his roaches and burrow them in EVERY game he played. Find me a screencap of the games today where he only burrow some of them. You need to burrow all of them to make room for the back ones or they will just unburrow on the wrong side of the forcefield. And forcefields don't require any skill to use at all. My grandma can use forcefield just as effectively as MC. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On April 17 2011 08:44 infinity2k9 wrote: If you can't appreciate it how can you even appreciate anything in Starcraft? Do you appreciate someone just going a certain unit combo and attack moving or what? Obviously it has tons of casual appeal cause you can hear the audience members actually impressed at whats going on, and BW in Korea has tons of non-playing fans. Watch the dragoon control. You think they are auto moving back and targeting those mines? All while he is macroing more units at the same time. Its blatantly obvious what is happening, the sprites and everything that is happening (prehaps besides Dark Swarm) is very obvious in BW. To deny it and claim you have no idea what is going on, despite being an SC2 viewer, is being deliberately ignorant. I can tell what's going on in any RTS vod cause of my BW viewing experience, to claim you have no idea why this is impressive is just bullshitting to support your viewpoint. I kinda understand what he's doing but it just isn't that interesting to me. I get no "WOW!" factor out of it, sorry if that offends you but that's how it is. | ||
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