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On April 17 2011 01:17 craz3d wrote:
So you enjoy watching people sit in their bases, macro up to 200/200 and then engage and watch one player lose his army in 5 seconds?
This is not what actually happens. That entire line of argument is a strawman fallacy.
The op is simply trying to say that SC2 strategy doesn't involve much around positional play, and that this is largely due to the one dimensional units in SC2. He used BW games as examples to show how having aoe units capable of defending a position efficiently added to the richness of the game, both for spectators and gamers. This has nothing to do with the BW UI. Hell, did you even watch the games posted in the op (in their entirety)?
But he completely neglected the role that fast harassment units play in doing the same thing in SC2.
Instead of spider mines and lurkers controlling movement, SC2 players use hellions and mutalisks and speedlings. Have you not seen a player move two infestors to a corner of the map in order to intercept a fleet of harassing phoenix? Have you not seen mutalisks deny reinforcements, or speedlings dart in to surround blue flame hellions?
I would argue that the BW UI is relevant to this difference, because automated defenses like spider mines and lurkers were necessary. Was it really possible to control fast lings so efficiently that you could catch and surround 4-5 vultures?
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I believe one of the main things that SC2 lacks compared to BW is that the battles end too quickly. I think this is a fundamental problem in this game. Regardless of whether new units are added that dictate the flow of battle, if the main battle ends too quickly and abruptly, then unit micro and positioning don't really matter. This is also probably partly why progamers in SC2 don't really position their units because it matters way less. Of course this makes for very much less impressive play.
I have no idea how Blizzard can fix this problem, lowering the DPS of units or increasing their HP doesn't seem like a very viable choice to me. And no matter how many new units you add into the game, things will probably not change much if battles end in a blink of the eye.
At any rate I believe it doesn't matter much if SC2 feels easier than BW, if unit positioning were to play a much larger role in this game, that would make battles non-one dimensional. That's what I think where the problem with the current game lies.
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I still don't see the issue with smartcasting. So... we have an incredibly awesome and tense spell being used more often? Er... I don't get it. And I was under the impression that psi storm was nerfed because pathing makes all AOE much stronger.
It takes away any "wow" factor when watching the game. When someone throws down 5 storms in BW, you had the type of reaction in the OP (Jangbi vs. Nada) with fangirls screaming. In SC2 when someone throws down 5 storms, it's just meh. There's no amazement and awe because you know he just held down storm and clicked 5 times. The OP is about the "magic" of watching BW as a spectator. Smart casting is a large reason for that magic's absence in SC2.
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It's unfair to compare SC2 to BW games that happened a year ago. Compare it to SC1 games that happened in 2000, the metagame is growing much faster in SC2 than in BW, but it's nowhere near done yet. It's still hung up on flavor of the month builds that change quite rapidly, and until Blizzard finishes balancing it out with expansions.
It's perfectly competent the way it is now and could flourish, but considering there are 2 expansions already fucking announced, it seems like Blizzard is withholding a bunch of ideas so they have stuff to put in them, which is the missing factor you're speaking of.
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On April 17 2011 01:25 deafhobbit wrote:
..a live event, I'll remain unconvinced of the sustainability of the Sc2 scene.
How long was that event after the introduction of original starcraft?
Is sustainability even important? A good game can die when a better one takes it's place.
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I love this thread. I agree with everything the thread opener mentioned.
In my opinion there are several major points which doesnt make SC2 as good as BW:
Like its said in the first post of this thread, the mechanics in SC2 are too easy.
The first thing is that you can select infinite units. When SC2 wasn't out yet I heard something about 24 units in a group so I thought you can select 24 units max. and I was quite happy about that. But then I found out you can select infinite units and only the several groups you selected are divided in 24units. I was shocked. Because it makes it wayyyy to easy to control your big unit ball. I think SC2 needs some sort of selected unit limit, maybe 24 is the perfect number.
The second thing is the AI. It's too good. You can't block by-running hellions or zerglings because the AI is so good that it immediatly finds a way if there's one. That way you can't really block incoming hellions with drones or zerglings because the hellions just sneak around them and drive into your base. It's also hard to block scout probes with drones which was an often used technique in BW.
The third point is the clumping of the units. They ALWAYS create this annoying ball which especially makes splash damage from siege tanks extremly strong. And it's so hard to spread your units. Actually it's almost impossible to spread your units which makes big battles not really attractive because its always one big ball of units vs the other one. In BW there were two big spread-out armys which often covered more space than ur screen could show. That way the battles were way more intense and exciting and also harder to manage for the players.
Last but not least there's smartcast. That makes using spells extreeeeemly easy, especially casting force fields. Although I doubt Blizzard will change this, it's not really exciting to watch well placed storms or force fields because you don't need much skill to be able to do that.
Just my 2 cents 
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On April 17 2011 01:28 deth2munkies wrote:
It's unfair to compare SC2 to BW games that happened a year ago. Compare it to SC1 games that happened in 2000, the metagame is growing much faster in SC2 than in BW, but it's nowhere near done yet. It's still hung up on flavor of the month builds that change quite rapidly, and until Blizzard finishes balancing it out with expansions.
It's perfectly competent the way it is now and could flourish, but considering there are 2 expansions already fucking announced, it seems like Blizzard is withholding a bunch of ideas so they have stuff to put in them, which is the missing factor you're speaking of.
The evolution of the metagame is irrelevant. The mechanical level of players in 2000 was 10% of that of players now. Is SC2 the same way? That's one of the reasons for this discussion.
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"I still don't see the issue with smartcasting. So... we have an incredibly awesome and tense spell being used more often? Er... I don't get it. And I was under the impression that psi storm was nerfed because pathing makes all AOE much stronger."
"Ball" pathing + smart-casting = Storm becomes imbalanced.
Pretty obvious...
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On April 17 2011 01:27 Stoids wrote:Show nested quote +I still don't see the issue with smartcasting. So... we have an incredibly awesome and tense spell being used more often? Er... I don't get it. And I was under the impression that psi storm was nerfed because pathing makes all AOE much stronger. It takes away any "wow" factor when watching the game. When someone throws down 5 storms in BW, you had the type of reaction in the OP (Jangbi vs. Nada) with fangirls screaming. In SC2 when someone throws down 5 storms, it's just meh. There's no amazement and awe because you know he just held down storm and clicked 5 times. The OP is about the "magic" of watching BW as a spectator. Smart casting is a large reason for that magic's absence in SC2.
That's nonsensical. If you engage an army with 5 HT and let them storm with impunity, you've already lost the fight. I don't see why dodging storms is so much more impressive than having enough map and game awareness to get in an EMP before the engagement, or to send in small portions of your army to snipe some of the templar. If anything, smartcasting makes templar more of a threat, and makes defeating them more reliant on timing and game sense than simply the ability to micro out of a storm.
EDIT: I have to add that this mentality really bothers me. This thread is full of myopic reasoning and facetious arguments. How can one have a reasonable discussion comparing two games when one game is reduced to a caricature? SC2 is not "1a vs 1a", at least not the SC2 I see on the GSL and TSL and Dreamhack and MLG.
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On April 17 2011 01:27 Stoids wrote:Show nested quote +I still don't see the issue with smartcasting. So... we have an incredibly awesome and tense spell being used more often? Er... I don't get it. And I was under the impression that psi storm was nerfed because pathing makes all AOE much stronger. It takes away any "wow" factor when watching the game. When someone throws down 5 storms in BW, you had the type of reaction in the OP (Jangbi vs. Nada) with fangirls screaming. In SC2 when someone throws down 5 storms, it's just meh. There's no amazement and awe because you know he just held down storm and clicked 5 times. The OP is about the "magic" of watching BW as a spectator. Smart casting is a large reason for that magic's absence in SC2.
But people keep saying how insanely quick battles happen in SC2. If somebody blink-microed WHILE storming during a battle, that would be impressive right? Would that get the fangirls screaming?
I simply do not the reasoning behind there being a "low skill ceiling." Smartcasting just means we can do more things than just storming.
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On April 17 2011 01:28 skythra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 01:25 deafhobbit wrote:
..a live event, I'll remain unconvinced of the sustainability of the Sc2 scene. How long was that event after the introduction of original starcraft? Is sustainability even important? A good game can die when a better one takes it's place.
That would be 2005, about 7 years after the game launched, and about 5 after the proscene really got kicking. Plenty of events before then drew numbers greater than any Sc2 event has been able to get.
And yes, sustainability matters. If we want esports to be treated seriously, games need to have longevity. You didn't see the NBA shut down and move on when Slamball came out, why should esports leagues change games when sequels come out? The ONLY possibly valid argument for this is improved graphics, but we are rapidly approaching the point of effective photo-realism, so in a few years that argument will be worthless as well. If we want esports to be just another type of sport (like they are in Korea) games can't change every few years when a developer decides to cash in on the success of their franchise.
Put it this way, imagine all your dreams come true. Sc2 becomes massively successful, the expansions fix all it's problems, and it starts to get mainstream coverage. Then, in 2020, Blizzard releases Sc3 and it's just objectively bad. Not like with Sc2, where it's different from BW and there's debate as to whether or not the changes were a good thing, but absolutely terrible. If we have set the precedent that people should switch games as new ones come out, what happens then?
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Great post. I wish blizzard didn't make this game so noob friendly i think it would be alot better if it was like bw and really hard to play.
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I feel like the biggest point of contention is the "Siege unit" differences.
Siege tanks vs Lurkers vs Reavers
Siege tanks vs ...? I'm not even sure what to put here. vs Colossi
Siege tanks are still siege tanks, no beef there.
Colossi are awfully mobile for being a siege unit, like whoa - I think this may be indirectly behind more colossus-bitching than their power/splash. Reavers, unlike lurkers and siege tanks, didn't have to "set up" before attacking, but they were sooo slow that they were always paired with shuttles, which was a really neat dynamic. (The best reaver upgrade is shuttle speed!)
And zerg has no real substitute for lurkers. Sure, you can use burrowed banelings, but unlike lurkers, if you burrow banelings and they're detected, they do nothing. whereas against burrowed lurkers, the opponent still has to be careful even if they're advancing with detection.
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On April 17 2011 01:25 deafhobbit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 01:00 karpo wrote:On April 17 2011 00:55 deafhobbit wrote:On April 17 2011 00:40 Hoodlum wrote:
First off, loved the right up...
In my opinion, being only a diamond player with no real mechanics to speak of, love the direction of SC2... If you haven't noticed the spectators of BW were few and far between.. Um, if you haven't noticed, even regular BW events draw much larger crowds than Sc2 events do, and I've never seen even the largest Sc2 events come close to the numbers that Starleague or Proleague finals can draw. In korea. I think it was D9 who said that back in BW EU/US players would jump at the chance to win a $200 tournament, so the spectators of BW outside of korea wasn't that big. SC2 on the other hand is massive. Dreamhack could have easily filled a arena twice or four times the size of the one they used. Yes, in Korea, the only country in the world where esports are institutionalized. They are broadcast on TWO different tv channels, have numerous shows that relate to the scene (analysis shows, BNET attack and it's copies, Hyungjoon becomes a progamer, etc), and where, here's the kicker, people who don't game follow esports. Right now, esports anywhere else is just a bunch of people who love video games watching people play them. There's nothing wrong with that, i watch high level Counterstrike and love it, but there's a big difference between that and what we see in korea. Where crowds of cheering fans stuff aircraft hangers + Show Spoiler +Show up during near record heat waves to watch proleague finals outside on a beach. + Show Spoiler +Until i see over 120,000 people attending a live event, I'll remain unconvinced of the sustainability of the Sc2 scene.
You gotta admit though that the beach event was great and the ending of it was better just because of FBH going all baller and making a wonderful performance out of winning that tourney was the greatest thing to watch.
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I agree with most of the things, what i dont agree with is the need to always go back to BW, and always saying multicast is bad, or always giving hints to change storm as it was before.
Saying this I do think that SC2 needs more units like lurkers, mines, siege tanks, etc, unis with "spells" or abilities that requires time to setup, and if you do it properly then it will create wonders in damage, and not just A-Move units.
Hopefully Blizzard knows about this and they will add them on the next expansions, hopefully we can have something like what lurkers, corsairs, medics did for SC1 on BW, im almost certain they will, right now SC2 has a lot of units with DPS related and now its about tweaking units like the raven, overseer, etc so they are useful + adding new ones that create spells that has great reward with micro or positioning.
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Great post.
I myself have pondered quite alot if reducing all damage and unit speed (maybe some more than others? ) in sc2 could bring out something extra. Making stuff like colossorum, immortals and tanks & maybe marauders reaaaal slow while keeping many "basic" units such as hellions, marines, roaches, zealots relatively fast would make army management way more complicated and buff the defenders advantage.
And the lack of defenders advantage in sc2 (other than TvT) has always made me cringe quite alot.
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I think this discussion is great, and the article itself was just pure awesomness. But seeing as we dont have a complete game yet, I don think this discussion can go further then saying it feels dumbed down, but has potential ahead of it that we haven't seen so far. WHich when it comes I think personally the discussion of it being less exciting the BW or less demonsional will cease. Since we have 2 expansions of units and balance changes maps testing expermenting strats and new things ahead of us.
Yes it can be the greatest thing ever, or it can fail. Let us get on the trip and see where it lands a couple of years ahead of us
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Fantastic post.
I could only hope someone from Blizzard reads this at some point.
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Canada13379 Posts
On April 17 2011 01:52 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Great post.
I myself have pondered quite alot if reducing all damage and unit speed (maybe some more than others? ) in sc2 could bring out something extra. Making stuff like colossorum, immortals and tanks & maybe marauders reaaaal slow while keeping many "basic" units such as hellions, marines, roaches, zealots relatively fast would make army management way more complicated and buff the defenders advantage.
And the lack of defenders advantage in sc2 (other than TvT) has always made me cringe quite alot.
If Colossus as a unit was slower it would probably be really good actually as you would need to be more careful about protecting them with stalkers as you traversed a map. Maybe if there was a stop-and-set function to the colossus it would also be better. Somewhat like siege mode since they are a siege unit. But a slow down and set mode might defeat the purpose of the Colossus being a more mobile siege unit.
The colossus is an example. I don't mean to mention balance or anything like that but something about the speed of units as you mentioned is in part a problem compared to BW. With the speed of units reinforcements and engagements can end too fast.
Then again, another issue is low damage output vs. High damage output when comparing the counter concept. I feel that the change to Siege Tanks back in the first patch was problematic since now in TvT siege tanks can be attacked by marines stimming in and the siege line just melts. I always thought siege tanks should control space better than they currently do.
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omg, I was waiting for a thread like this in FOREVER. seriously.
I've always had this thought that StarCraft 1 was 10000 times more fun to spectate pros play than in Sc2. It's extremely boring in SC2 in comparison.
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