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On April 17 2011 02:23 blamous wrote:
No disrespect, but I'm a little tired of these kinds of discussions.
The reason you are even able to write a thread like this is because BW had a decade of gameplay to get it to where it is right now. I don't disagree with the points made about BW, they are absolutely true. But why not wait until the game is finished and playing for a few years before we decide its not good enough.
The designers are not the people who made BW great, it was the players doing great things with what they had. Don't count on the dev team to make another BW, that is not going to happen. It's going to be up to you and me to do amazing things with the game. And if we can't, then the game will die.
It's as simple as that.
This is true.
The more frequently and dramatically a game is changed, the less time there is for the pros to explore every inch of it. I remember in another topic such as this, GunZ was discussed, and the exploits people had found, and getting good at the exploits became THE game. Still following through on the fundamentals while going through the minor exploit movements became very difficult. They removed this, and the games popularity dropped drastically.
I suppose as far as examples, I heard these same cries of doomsday about the competitive scene with a game I was previously involved in competitively, Super Smash Bros. The Melee community (old) was trying to say that Brawl (new) could never be competitive. And yet, Brawl was taken to a very competitive edge. So much so that the same people that started out playing and had success, are relatively the same people, from melee, into brawl, and from the start of brawl till now. The tournaments still go on weekly despite the doomsday sayers. They all said that Metaknight would win every tournament (forgetting that Jiggly puff had won every major tournament for the better part of over 2 years, and marth/fox all the years before that generally). We have seen a national tournament with the top 8 having 3 sonics, I mean that wasn't predicted by anyone, sonic was seen as a weak character. There are many new varied ways of playing; technical, flow based, reading, buffering inputs constantly, etc.. Some people try to combine all, some focus on one aspect.
The reason why I delve into this is, the arguments appear the same within the Starcraft community, the only difference being, that the Starcraft community is much more organized and intelligent appearing, but yet a lot of the old school are still saying the same thing. Did the actions of players in the first year of SC1 (not BW) impress anyone to the level of year 8 of BW? I would think not. It goes the same for Super Smash, the melee community still continues to add new blood, it's still large, brawl is much larger however, and yet melee gets more and more competitive, and so does brawl. It just how it goes. Usually the people who complained the most, had some sort of emotional connection to melee, some sort of psychological motive, and were not just being objective.
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Canada5565 Posts
- Remove the colossus. It's the easiest, most thoughtless unit to use in the game. It actually kills fun.
- Make it so there is a limit on or you can't use inject larvae/chrono on workers. Limit/remove mules. See, in BW, when you harassed a mineral line it actually mattered. In sc2 if you lose 10 workers you can chrono them back or w.e in like 30 seconds.
There are so few exciting BOOM moments in sc2.
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- Remove the colossus. It's the easiest, most thoughtless unit to use in the game. It actually kills fun.
Personally, I think if the colossus was slower, it would simply be less thoughtless and attractive as opposed to templar.
On April 17 2011 03:02 R0YAL wrote:Great post, well written and even more accurate with your points. Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 09:48 Dusty1337 wrote:
I think SC2 just needs more time. Granted I didn't read the entire post but I read a good amount of it, future expansions might make sc2 even better than bw some day. Theres tons of people saying that sc2 just needs more time and although that may to true to an extent, theres only so much you can do when all the units are hopelessly one dimensional.
Really, you think phoenixes are more one-dimensional than corsairs? Seriously? Stalkers more one-dimensional than dragoons? Roaches even aren't that one-dimensional now that we're seeing a lot more burrow-micro tactics and timings.
Again, now that certain things are easier, that means that pro players will be able to other things at the same time. Players just aren't good enough yet. Burrow-roaching while baneling dropping or transfusing. Blink-microing while storming. Nuking/Emping while setting up mech. And these kinds of crazy things take time.
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On April 17 2011 03:05 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 02:23 blamous wrote:
No disrespect, but I'm a little tired of these kinds of discussions.
The reason you are even able to write a thread like this is because BW had a decade of gameplay to get it to where it is right now. I don't disagree with the points made about BW, they are absolutely true. But why not wait until the game is finished and playing for a few years before we decide its not good enough.
The designers are not the people who made BW great, it was the players doing great things with what they had. Don't count on the dev team to make another BW, that is not going to happen. It's going to be up to you and me to do amazing things with the game. And if we can't, then the game will die.
It's as simple as that. This is true. The more frequently and dramatically a game is changed, the less time there is for the pros to explore every inch of it. I remember in another topic such as this, GunZ was discussed, and the exploits people had found, and getting good at the exploits became THE game. Still following through on the fundamentals while going through the minor exploit movements became very difficult. They removed this, and the games popularity dropped drastically. I suppose as far as examples, I heard these same cries of doomsday about the competitive scene with a game I was previously involved in competitively, Super Smash Bros. The Melee community (old) was trying to say that Brawl (new) could never be competitive. And yet, Brawl was taken to a very competitive edge. So much so that the same people that started out playing and had success, are relatively the same people, from melee, into brawl, and from the start of brawl till now. The tournaments still go on weekly despite the doomsday sayers. They all said that Metaknight would win every tournament (forgetting that Jiggly puff had won every major tournament for the better part of over 2 years, and marth/fox all the years before that generally). We have seen a national tournament with the top 8 having 3 sonics, I mean that wasn't predicted by anyone, sonic was seen as a weak character. There are many new varied ways of playing; technical, flow based, reading, buffering inputs constantly, etc.. Some people try to combine all, some focus on one aspect. The reason why I delve into this is, the arguments appear the same within the Starcraft community, the only difference being, that the Starcraft community is much more organized and intelligent appearing, but yet a lot of the old school are still saying the same thing. Did the actions of players in the first year of SC1 (not BW) impress anyone to the level of year 8 of BW? I would think not. It goes the same for Super Smash, the melee community still continues to add new blood, it's still large, brawl is much larger however, and yet melee gets more and more competitive, and so does brawl. It just how it goes. Usually the people who complained the most, had some sort of emotional connection to melee, some sort of psychological motive, and were not just being objective.
i always feel like this idea that things will improve with time is a cop out of an argument. in things concerning builds and timings it is always a relevant point, but how much time is needed before colossus gains setup time? how much time is needed before roaches can effectively hold ground? i understand calling this a fundamental flaw is a huge claim, but saying give it time is completely disregarding my entire post and all the arguments i've presented in a huge general sweep.
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On April 17 2011 03:09 Xxio wrote:
- Remove the colossus. It's the easiest, most thoughtless unit to use in the game. It actually kills fun.
- Make it so there is a limit on or you can't use inject larvae/chrono on workers. Limit/remove mules. See, in BW, when you harassed a mineral line it actually mattered. In sc2 if you lose 10 workers you can chrono them back or w.e in like 30 seconds.
There are so few exciting BOOM moments in sc2.
Colossus is definitely the single most one dimensional unit in the entire game. It doesnt help that a gold level player can micro it to the same degree of a Grand Master player since all you ever need to do with it is back it up and attack some more.
I dont agree with your other points tho. However I wouldnt mind it if mules lasted longer but mined slower, giving the Terran the same resources but over a longer, more vulnerable period of time. Players should actually have choice to which ability to use instead of mule mule mule mule mule...
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I still have high hopes for SC2, but it really depends on these next expansions. That being said, I think many people are overestimating how much time it will take to "solve" the game. There are so many more people experimenting with new build orders and different strategies and play styles. In addition to these larger numbers, the speed at which this information travels across the globe is astounding.
I'm wondering how much time it will take for SC2 to experience the 10 years BW had to develop. If I had to guess, I would say 3 years. The expansions will mess with this time depending on how much they change the game.
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On April 17 2011 03:13 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +- Remove the colossus. It's the easiest, most thoughtless unit to use in the game. It actually kills fun. Personally, I think if the colossus was slower, it would simply be less thoughtless and attractive as opposed to templar. Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:02 R0YAL wrote:Great post, well written and even more accurate with your points. On April 16 2011 09:48 Dusty1337 wrote:
I think SC2 just needs more time. Granted I didn't read the entire post but I read a good amount of it, future expansions might make sc2 even better than bw some day. Theres tons of people saying that sc2 just needs more time and although that may to true to an extent, theres only so much you can do when all the units are hopelessly one dimensional. Really, you think phoenixes are more one-dimensional than corsairs? Seriously? Stalkers more one-dimensional than dragoons? Roaches even aren't that one-dimensional now that we're seeing a lot more burrow-micro tactics and timings. Again, now that certain things are easier, that means that pro players will be able to other things at the same time. Players just aren't good enough yet. Burrow-roaching while baneling dropping or transfusing. Blink-microing while storming. Nuking/Emping while setting up mech. And these kinds of crazy things take time.
Grand scheme of things. Just because a mage in WoW has a million abilities doesnt make it less one dimensional.
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On April 17 2011 03:19 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:13 DoubleReed wrote:- Remove the colossus. It's the easiest, most thoughtless unit to use in the game. It actually kills fun. Personally, I think if the colossus was slower, it would simply be less thoughtless and attractive as opposed to templar. On April 17 2011 03:02 R0YAL wrote:Great post, well written and even more accurate with your points. On April 16 2011 09:48 Dusty1337 wrote:
I think SC2 just needs more time. Granted I didn't read the entire post but I read a good amount of it, future expansions might make sc2 even better than bw some day. Theres tons of people saying that sc2 just needs more time and although that may to true to an extent, theres only so much you can do when all the units are hopelessly one dimensional. Really, you think phoenixes are more one-dimensional than corsairs? Seriously? Stalkers more one-dimensional than dragoons? Roaches even aren't that one-dimensional now that we're seeing a lot more burrow-micro tactics and timings. Again, now that certain things are easier, that means that pro players will be able to other things at the same time. Players just aren't good enough yet. Burrow-roaching while baneling dropping or transfusing. Blink-microing while storming. Nuking/Emping while setting up mech. And these kinds of crazy things take time. Grand scheme of things. Just because a mage in WoW has a million abilities doesnt make it less one dimensional.
Uhm. It's not about the number of abilities. Stalkers are still way more interesting than dragoons and personally I think Phoenixes are still more interesting than corsairs, even when you consider they have the same amount of abilities and phoenix can attack while moving. And come on, Shuttles are certainly more one-dimensional than Warp Prisms. This is total Nostalgia-Glasses talking.
The Grand Scheme of things implies that there will be more impressive play with tons more going on than in BW. Things are easier, so more things can be done at the same time. It's a good thing, not a bad thing.
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On April 17 2011 03:13 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:05 Aberu wrote:On April 17 2011 02:23 blamous wrote:
No disrespect, but I'm a little tired of these kinds of discussions.
The reason you are even able to write a thread like this is because BW had a decade of gameplay to get it to where it is right now. I don't disagree with the points made about BW, they are absolutely true. But why not wait until the game is finished and playing for a few years before we decide its not good enough.
The designers are not the people who made BW great, it was the players doing great things with what they had. Don't count on the dev team to make another BW, that is not going to happen. It's going to be up to you and me to do amazing things with the game. And if we can't, then the game will die.
It's as simple as that. This is true. The more frequently and dramatically a game is changed, the less time there is for the pros to explore every inch of it. I remember in another topic such as this, GunZ was discussed, and the exploits people had found, and getting good at the exploits became THE game. Still following through on the fundamentals while going through the minor exploit movements became very difficult. They removed this, and the games popularity dropped drastically. I suppose as far as examples, I heard these same cries of doomsday about the competitive scene with a game I was previously involved in competitively, Super Smash Bros. The Melee community (old) was trying to say that Brawl (new) could never be competitive. And yet, Brawl was taken to a very competitive edge. So much so that the same people that started out playing and had success, are relatively the same people, from melee, into brawl, and from the start of brawl till now. The tournaments still go on weekly despite the doomsday sayers. They all said that Metaknight would win every tournament (forgetting that Jiggly puff had won every major tournament for the better part of over 2 years, and marth/fox all the years before that generally). We have seen a national tournament with the top 8 having 3 sonics, I mean that wasn't predicted by anyone, sonic was seen as a weak character. There are many new varied ways of playing; technical, flow based, reading, buffering inputs constantly, etc.. Some people try to combine all, some focus on one aspect. The reason why I delve into this is, the arguments appear the same within the Starcraft community, the only difference being, that the Starcraft community is much more organized and intelligent appearing, but yet a lot of the old school are still saying the same thing. Did the actions of players in the first year of SC1 (not BW) impress anyone to the level of year 8 of BW? I would think not. It goes the same for Super Smash, the melee community still continues to add new blood, it's still large, brawl is much larger however, and yet melee gets more and more competitive, and so does brawl. It just how it goes. Usually the people who complained the most, had some sort of emotional connection to melee, some sort of psychological motive, and were not just being objective. i always feel like this idea that things will improve with time is a cop out of an argument. in things concerning builds and timings it is always a relevant point, but how much time is needed before colossus gains setup time? how much time is needed before roaches can effectively hold ground? i understand calling this a fundamental flaw is a huge claim, but saying give it time is completely disregarding my entire post and all the arguments i've presented in a huge general sweep.
Isn't it obvious that when players can stop focusing on hammering out builds and timings they will be able to focus more on the exciting things that will set them apart from other players? This takes time to happen, especially when the game is getting patches every 2-3 months.
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The funny thing is, imagine if you gave BW today and told them to balance it based on the player base we have now. Everything would be changed, Terran probably buffed for the lower level players for sure. I know obviously this isn't about balance but it shows the change of direction they are going nowadays.
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Thesis: There is so much untapped potential in SC2.
I facepalm every time I see a pro level game with BOTH PLAYERS turtling at their natural expansion. There is ALWAYS an opportunity for harassing and pushing and fighting over land and expansions.
Zerg players could randomly put 4 Blings in an Overlord and drop at the opponents mineral line.
They could get 8 Blings and do a two pronged drop in the opponents third and main.
I really feel that Warp Prisms will become a standard unit in high level play. They allow for so much versatility, harass, scouting, and surprise. You don't have to use them in-conjunction with DTs... Warp Prisms don't even cost any gas and come from a building that you already have. Use it.
Terran have barely scratched the surface on use of their spell casters because they have gotten stuck in rut of using bio and mech only. Why aren't Terran's always getting at least one Ghost in TvP? Where are the PDDs? PDDs potentially force High Templar to Feedback them. We've lost out on all of that micro and strategy just because they feel safer turtling at their natural with tanks and bunkers.
All of the suggestions above don't cost game breaking amounts of time or money in game. Two Ravens are 400 gas. If 400 gas mid/late game is "game breaking" you've got issues. Overlord Drop research is 200 gas, it should be upgraded far more often. Warp Prisms are just 200 minerals...
Wait for the game to develop and for players to realize how strong PDD and Warp Prisms and and all of Zerg's flying supply depots being dropships really is.
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On April 17 2011 03:36 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:19 R0YAL wrote:On April 17 2011 03:13 DoubleReed wrote:- Remove the colossus. It's the easiest, most thoughtless unit to use in the game. It actually kills fun. Personally, I think if the colossus was slower, it would simply be less thoughtless and attractive as opposed to templar. On April 17 2011 03:02 R0YAL wrote:Great post, well written and even more accurate with your points. On April 16 2011 09:48 Dusty1337 wrote:
I think SC2 just needs more time. Granted I didn't read the entire post but I read a good amount of it, future expansions might make sc2 even better than bw some day. Theres tons of people saying that sc2 just needs more time and although that may to true to an extent, theres only so much you can do when all the units are hopelessly one dimensional. Really, you think phoenixes are more one-dimensional than corsairs? Seriously? Stalkers more one-dimensional than dragoons? Roaches even aren't that one-dimensional now that we're seeing a lot more burrow-micro tactics and timings. Again, now that certain things are easier, that means that pro players will be able to other things at the same time. Players just aren't good enough yet. Burrow-roaching while baneling dropping or transfusing. Blink-microing while storming. Nuking/Emping while setting up mech. And these kinds of crazy things take time. Grand scheme of things. Just because a mage in WoW has a million abilities doesnt make it less one dimensional. Uhm. It's not about the number of abilities. Stalkers are still way more interesting than dragoons and personally I think Phoenixes are still more interesting than corsairs, even when you consider they have the same amount of abilities and phoenix can attack while moving. And come on, Shuttles are certainly more one-dimensional than Warp Prisms. This is total Nostalgia-Glasses talking. The Grand Scheme of things implies that there will be more impressive play with tons more going on than in BW. Things are easier, so more things can be done at the same time. It's a good thing, not a bad thing.
don't think of it as what role X unit plays in Y army. think of it as what role does X unit have on Y players play. in terms of it's relationship with different units the dragoon is far more diverse even though it has no abilities, this may be in part because of the other units but the point still stands.
On April 17 2011 03:38 Footler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:13 mahnini wrote:On April 17 2011 03:05 Aberu wrote:On April 17 2011 02:23 blamous wrote:
No disrespect, but I'm a little tired of these kinds of discussions.
The reason you are even able to write a thread like this is because BW had a decade of gameplay to get it to where it is right now. I don't disagree with the points made about BW, they are absolutely true. But why not wait until the game is finished and playing for a few years before we decide its not good enough.
The designers are not the people who made BW great, it was the players doing great things with what they had. Don't count on the dev team to make another BW, that is not going to happen. It's going to be up to you and me to do amazing things with the game. And if we can't, then the game will die.
It's as simple as that. This is true. The more frequently and dramatically a game is changed, the less time there is for the pros to explore every inch of it. I remember in another topic such as this, GunZ was discussed, and the exploits people had found, and getting good at the exploits became THE game. Still following through on the fundamentals while going through the minor exploit movements became very difficult. They removed this, and the games popularity dropped drastically. I suppose as far as examples, I heard these same cries of doomsday about the competitive scene with a game I was previously involved in competitively, Super Smash Bros. The Melee community (old) was trying to say that Brawl (new) could never be competitive. And yet, Brawl was taken to a very competitive edge. So much so that the same people that started out playing and had success, are relatively the same people, from melee, into brawl, and from the start of brawl till now. The tournaments still go on weekly despite the doomsday sayers. They all said that Metaknight would win every tournament (forgetting that Jiggly puff had won every major tournament for the better part of over 2 years, and marth/fox all the years before that generally). We have seen a national tournament with the top 8 having 3 sonics, I mean that wasn't predicted by anyone, sonic was seen as a weak character. There are many new varied ways of playing; technical, flow based, reading, buffering inputs constantly, etc.. Some people try to combine all, some focus on one aspect. The reason why I delve into this is, the arguments appear the same within the Starcraft community, the only difference being, that the Starcraft community is much more organized and intelligent appearing, but yet a lot of the old school are still saying the same thing. Did the actions of players in the first year of SC1 (not BW) impress anyone to the level of year 8 of BW? I would think not. It goes the same for Super Smash, the melee community still continues to add new blood, it's still large, brawl is much larger however, and yet melee gets more and more competitive, and so does brawl. It just how it goes. Usually the people who complained the most, had some sort of emotional connection to melee, some sort of psychological motive, and were not just being objective. i always feel like this idea that things will improve with time is a cop out of an argument. in things concerning builds and timings it is always a relevant point, but how much time is needed before colossus gains setup time? how much time is needed before roaches can effectively hold ground? i understand calling this a fundamental flaw is a huge claim, but saying give it time is completely disregarding my entire post and all the arguments i've presented in a huge general sweep. Isn't it obvious that when players can stop focusing on hammering out builds and timings they will be able to focus more on the exciting things that will set them apart from other players? This takes time to happen, especially when the game is getting patches every 2-3 months.
this is not what i am talking about in my OP at all.
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It boils down to this:
(1) It's always better to design units/abilities to be strong and interesting in their own right than it is to design everything to counter something and be countered.
(2) It's always better to make powerful units/abilities have powerful, non-specific responses.
This isn't just true for SC2, but it's true for every game. Look at any game you have absolutely loved. I guarantee the parts you love about it adhere to these rules. From Go and Chess to MvC2, SF2T, 3rd strike, and SC:BW.
I'm trying to keep it short and sweet here, but most of the problems with SC2 and strengths of BW can be explained with #1/#2 directly. In SC2 T was perceived stronger because they have more units that follow #1, P has a few things that completely break #2, and SC:BW has tons of units/abilities that follow the rules.
Edit: The parts in the o.p. about 12 units/psi storms are pretty pointless. They have nothing to do with how interesting the game is, and to be honest as someone who can do those things in SC:BW I don't see it mattering that anyone can do them in SC2. If the ability rewards accuracy/timing and if armies require splitting why should it matter? The one thing that is really bad in SC2 is tank smart firing and similar removals of actual gameplay/unit strength. The mechanics of tank smart firing vs non-smart firing is entirely the same - you can have 1 apm or 400 apm and your tanks are just as effective in both games. Not having smart firing allows tanks to be a stronger unit because they have strict diminishing returns as you get more. In SC2 the only diminishing return to getting more tanks in one spot is your supply getting chewed up a bit more and your vulnerability to air/high mobility increasing slightly, which is not nearly the same as BW - because in BW the tank mechanics encouraged you to take up more space.
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On April 17 2011 03:42 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:36 DoubleReed wrote:On April 17 2011 03:19 R0YAL wrote:On April 17 2011 03:13 DoubleReed wrote:- Remove the colossus. It's the easiest, most thoughtless unit to use in the game. It actually kills fun. Personally, I think if the colossus was slower, it would simply be less thoughtless and attractive as opposed to templar. On April 17 2011 03:02 R0YAL wrote:Great post, well written and even more accurate with your points. On April 16 2011 09:48 Dusty1337 wrote:
I think SC2 just needs more time. Granted I didn't read the entire post but I read a good amount of it, future expansions might make sc2 even better than bw some day. Theres tons of people saying that sc2 just needs more time and although that may to true to an extent, theres only so much you can do when all the units are hopelessly one dimensional. Really, you think phoenixes are more one-dimensional than corsairs? Seriously? Stalkers more one-dimensional than dragoons? Roaches even aren't that one-dimensional now that we're seeing a lot more burrow-micro tactics and timings. Again, now that certain things are easier, that means that pro players will be able to other things at the same time. Players just aren't good enough yet. Burrow-roaching while baneling dropping or transfusing. Blink-microing while storming. Nuking/Emping while setting up mech. And these kinds of crazy things take time. Grand scheme of things. Just because a mage in WoW has a million abilities doesnt make it less one dimensional. Uhm. It's not about the number of abilities. Stalkers are still way more interesting than dragoons and personally I think Phoenixes are still more interesting than corsairs, even when you consider they have the same amount of abilities and phoenix can attack while moving. And come on, Shuttles are certainly more one-dimensional than Warp Prisms. This is total Nostalgia-Glasses talking. The Grand Scheme of things implies that there will be more impressive play with tons more going on than in BW. Things are easier, so more things can be done at the same time. It's a good thing, not a bad thing. don't think of it as what role X unit plays in Y army. think of it as what role does X unit have on Y players play. in terms of it's relationship with different units the dragoon is far more diverse even though it has no abilities, this may be in part because of the other units but the point still stands.
Okay, explain further because i have no idea what you mean. How is the dragoon more diverse in any way than the stalker?
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On April 17 2011 03:42 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:36 DoubleReed wrote:On April 17 2011 03:19 R0YAL wrote:On April 17 2011 03:13 DoubleReed wrote:- Remove the colossus. It's the easiest, most thoughtless unit to use in the game. It actually kills fun. Personally, I think if the colossus was slower, it would simply be less thoughtless and attractive as opposed to templar. On April 17 2011 03:02 R0YAL wrote:Great post, well written and even more accurate with your points. On April 16 2011 09:48 Dusty1337 wrote:
I think SC2 just needs more time. Granted I didn't read the entire post but I read a good amount of it, future expansions might make sc2 even better than bw some day. Theres tons of people saying that sc2 just needs more time and although that may to true to an extent, theres only so much you can do when all the units are hopelessly one dimensional. Really, you think phoenixes are more one-dimensional than corsairs? Seriously? Stalkers more one-dimensional than dragoons? Roaches even aren't that one-dimensional now that we're seeing a lot more burrow-micro tactics and timings. Again, now that certain things are easier, that means that pro players will be able to other things at the same time. Players just aren't good enough yet. Burrow-roaching while baneling dropping or transfusing. Blink-microing while storming. Nuking/Emping while setting up mech. And these kinds of crazy things take time. Grand scheme of things. Just because a mage in WoW has a million abilities doesnt make it less one dimensional. Uhm. It's not about the number of abilities. Stalkers are still way more interesting than dragoons and personally I think Phoenixes are still more interesting than corsairs, even when you consider they have the same amount of abilities and phoenix can attack while moving. And come on, Shuttles are certainly more one-dimensional than Warp Prisms. This is total Nostalgia-Glasses talking. The Grand Scheme of things implies that there will be more impressive play with tons more going on than in BW. Things are easier, so more things can be done at the same time. It's a good thing, not a bad thing. don't think of it as what role X unit plays in Y army. think of it as what role does X unit have on Y players play. in terms of it's relationship with different units the dragoon is far more diverse even though it has no abilities, this may be in part because of the other units but the point still stands. Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 03:38 Footler wrote:On April 17 2011 03:13 mahnini wrote:On April 17 2011 03:05 Aberu wrote:On April 17 2011 02:23 blamous wrote:
No disrespect, but I'm a little tired of these kinds of discussions.
The reason you are even able to write a thread like this is because BW had a decade of gameplay to get it to where it is right now. I don't disagree with the points made about BW, they are absolutely true. But why not wait until the game is finished and playing for a few years before we decide its not good enough.
The designers are not the people who made BW great, it was the players doing great things with what they had. Don't count on the dev team to make another BW, that is not going to happen. It's going to be up to you and me to do amazing things with the game. And if we can't, then the game will die.
It's as simple as that. This is true. The more frequently and dramatically a game is changed, the less time there is for the pros to explore every inch of it. I remember in another topic such as this, GunZ was discussed, and the exploits people had found, and getting good at the exploits became THE game. Still following through on the fundamentals while going through the minor exploit movements became very difficult. They removed this, and the games popularity dropped drastically. I suppose as far as examples, I heard these same cries of doomsday about the competitive scene with a game I was previously involved in competitively, Super Smash Bros. The Melee community (old) was trying to say that Brawl (new) could never be competitive. And yet, Brawl was taken to a very competitive edge. So much so that the same people that started out playing and had success, are relatively the same people, from melee, into brawl, and from the start of brawl till now. The tournaments still go on weekly despite the doomsday sayers. They all said that Metaknight would win every tournament (forgetting that Jiggly puff had won every major tournament for the better part of over 2 years, and marth/fox all the years before that generally). We have seen a national tournament with the top 8 having 3 sonics, I mean that wasn't predicted by anyone, sonic was seen as a weak character. There are many new varied ways of playing; technical, flow based, reading, buffering inputs constantly, etc.. Some people try to combine all, some focus on one aspect. The reason why I delve into this is, the arguments appear the same within the Starcraft community, the only difference being, that the Starcraft community is much more organized and intelligent appearing, but yet a lot of the old school are still saying the same thing. Did the actions of players in the first year of SC1 (not BW) impress anyone to the level of year 8 of BW? I would think not. It goes the same for Super Smash, the melee community still continues to add new blood, it's still large, brawl is much larger however, and yet melee gets more and more competitive, and so does brawl. It just how it goes. Usually the people who complained the most, had some sort of emotional connection to melee, some sort of psychological motive, and were not just being objective. i always feel like this idea that things will improve with time is a cop out of an argument. in things concerning builds and timings it is always a relevant point, but how much time is needed before colossus gains setup time? how much time is needed before roaches can effectively hold ground? i understand calling this a fundamental flaw is a huge claim, but saying give it time is completely disregarding my entire post and all the arguments i've presented in a huge general sweep. Isn't it obvious that when players can stop focusing on hammering out builds and timings they will be able to focus more on the exciting things that will set them apart from other players? This takes time to happen, especially when the game is getting patches every 2-3 months. this is not what i am talking about in my OP at all.
What? I made a post earlier stating some potential unit uses we have yet to see that are great examples of things to come when players can no longer worry about putting so much energy into figuring out the fundamentals. How is this not the it factor that you so desire? How does the colossus not fall into this "think of it as what role does X unit have on Y players play?" I'll spoiler my post below.
+ Show Spoiler +While I agree SC2 is missing some it factor, I think what you consider it is something that just will never make its way into SC2 thus sort of making this thread feel like a BW vs SC2 thread as you so do not want as mentioned in the disclaimer.
However, I think you almost hit it on the head with the spellcasters. I say almost because, "no player involved response with sentries?" Guardian shield goes up you CAN target the sentry first, that's pretty involved, how impressive would it look if a big engagement happens with the protoss throwing up 3 guardian shields and the terran almost instantly picks off all 3 shielding sentries? That would be pretty badass imo. Forcefields can involve lots of mind games just like when people try to force stims, that's pretty involved. Not to mention as the game progresses there a more ways of dealing with forcefields such as medivac pickups or in the case that forcefield is being used as a way for the protoss to retreat you could potentially anticipate this and have a thor in a medivac ready to drop on a forcefield. It all sounds ridiculous but these are the sorts of tricks that will very likely evolve once the fundamentals are more well established, because fundamentals are what win games right now.
Now fungal, ya that is a really stupid, highly uninteresting spell. It is even visually unappealing.
I also think we have yet to see a lot of other spells worked into standard play such as the seeker missile and neural parasite. I think the Dimaga vs MVP game showcased to some degree how exciting neural parasite could be when properly employed.
But I do think the for the most part SC2 sorely needs more interesting spells/spellcasters which I'm fully expecting in the 2 expansions. Protoss needs a real air spellcaster, not this hero mothership unit that gets nerfed every patch depsite its under utilization.
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On April 16 2011 10:20 mahnini wrote:
this is NOT about the superficial factors. i'd appreciate it if you'd properly discuss in this thread rather than try to attack me THANKS.
Does everyone have to agree with you or get temp banned? You really do sound like a nostalgia hungry fan-boy
User was temp banned for this post.
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Boxer vs Sen had almost everything the OP talks about. What SC2 is missing is giving those things to Protoss related matchups, as they pretty much all involve no positional play.
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So clearly the fact that players are still not very good and hence don't multitask a lot during fights nearly as much as in a 10 year old game that top players have logged 20k hours on means that it doesn't allow for such intricacies.
Yea....
EDIT: For example, late game PvT battles are going to involve ghost vs templar micro, splitting units in general vs EMP, vikings vs colossus vs stalker micro, small groups of marauders aiming to target colossi, various flanks, and so on. Just because they only involve maybe 1 or 2 of these currently, because players aren't very good (I mean, you watch someone as good as white-ra get 6 HT emp'd at a time over and over vs bomber in a showmatch), doesn't mean top players in 10 years won't be doing these all simultaneously.
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On April 17 2011 04:23 Bleak wrote:
Boxer vs Sen had almost everything the OP talks about. What SC2 is missing is giving those things to Protoss related matchups, as they pretty much all involve no positional play.
You mean how boxer made only marines and tanks and sen only made lings/baneling/mutas with a handful of roaches at the beginning? That's not what BW was all about. You couldn't just make 2 units and expect to win. Anyone saying "oh it's just like the BW days of awesomeness!" is wrong. For example, if lurkers were in SC2 during game 3, boxer wouldn't have been able to just keep making marines and tanks. He would be completely rolled if Sen had 6 or so lurkers.
I don't think you understand what the OP was getting at with controlling space.
Boxer just moving out every 30 seconds with 25 marines and 3 tanks is not controlling space. It's taking a square peg and forcing it through a round hole (yet it works because he got a lead so early). Boxer took a lead early and sen could never recover due to there not being any way to defend his bases. If this was brood war, sen would clean it up every time cost efficiently.
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EPT
