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On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:
no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase.
yeah because the "disadvantages" Terrans face on cross positions is anything to compare with the odds faced by a zerg on close positions.. jeezus, get some perspective. Cross positions simply means you actually are getting a decent challenge in a TvZ, which is what it should be.
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no do not remove close spawns.
Yes, the early maps, in particular delta quadrant and lost temple were terran favored for close positions. However, some zergs still do win in close positions. I'm toss, and lost a game against zerg in close positions tonight. I did not play my best, and he managed to keep my forces zealot sentry heavy then transitioned into a big muta push basically killing my econ, I massed what I could and got crushed.
The new modifications to LT (shattered temple) make close positions better, and more exciting since there is jockeying for who gets to take the corner expansions.
It takes some skill but it is possible to expand away from your opponent and gain advantages that way with mobile units.
Bottom line, close positions require different playstyles.
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On March 31 2011 17:48 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:+ Show Spoiler + no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase. yeah because the "disadvantages" Terrans face on cross positions is anything to compare with the odds faced by a zerg on close positions.. jeezus, get some perspective. Cross positions simply means you actually are getting a decent challenge in a TvZ, which is what it should be.
actual they are... terran is as slow and immobile as it gets. while zerg has the fastest units on and of creep. And zerg has the best macro abilities of all the races. That is why terran has to do damage or it's a auto loss.
on cross positions terran can do hellions drops banshee or a big push. But when zerg goes for a couple of mutas banshee and drops are denied (not cost effective anymore).
Then you have to put all in that one big push and if it fails your a goner.
a good zerg denies reinforcement while you crawl to the zerg base and he can easily scout your army so he knows which units he has to produce more to counter. So no room for mistakes here for the terran player.
Your perspective is so zerg only. Just because you can't survive close positions doesn't mean that all odds are against you. Don't cry to much but focus on learning to play better against the matchup. Don't auto think i lost because of close position, but look back and see your errors.
Make some new strategies or adapt your timings. I played enough good zergs who didnt liked close postion but had no problem playing it the same way as i as terran scouts cross position.
when you lose it's always hard to blame it on yourself... that why we have so much ridiculous post here about blizzard and imba's. because it is so simple to just blame something else.
but most of the time it is because of your own faults.
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On March 31 2011 19:28 THAmarx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 17:48 5unrise wrote:On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:+ Show Spoiler + no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase. yeah because the "disadvantages" Terrans face on cross positions is anything to compare with the odds faced by a zerg on close positions.. jeezus, get some perspective. Cross positions simply means you actually are getting a decent challenge in a TvZ, which is what it should be. actual they are... terran is as slow and immobile as it gets. while zerg has the fastest units on and of creep. And zerg has the best macro abilities of all the races. That is why terran has to do damage or it's a auto loss. on cross positions terran can do hellions drops banshee or a big push. But when zerg goes for a couple of mutas banshee and drops are denied (not cost effective anymore). Then you have to put all in that one big push and if it fails your a goner. a good zerg denies reinforcement while you crawl to the zerg base and he can easily scout your army so he knows which units he has to produce more to counter. So no room for mistakes here for the terran player. Your perspective is so zerg only. Just because you can't survive close positions doesn't mean that all odds are against you. Don't cry to much but focus on learning to play better against the matchup. Don't auto think i lost because of close position, but look back and see your errors. Make some new strategies or adapt your timings. I played enough good zergs who didnt liked close postion but had no problem playing it the same way as i as terran scouts cross position. when you lose it's always hard to blame it on yourself... that why we have so much ridiculous post here about blizzard and imba's. because it is so simple to just blame something else. but most of the time it is because of your own faults.
umm I never said I don't try to improve, but that has nothing to do with the fact that close spawns is not remotely fair. Why do people liek you like to put words into other people's mouths?
Oh by the way.. a good terran knows when to "crawl" and when to just stim run into a zerg base. If zerg has an army, you crawl, because the macro advantage rests with you if he hasn't droned, if zerg has only mutas, or is about to make units, you stim and run to his door. If you crawl, he will mass his units and getting away with the macro advantage. This knowledge is infinitely helpful to any terran who needs to play a map involving any reasonable distance. If you only know how to 'crawl" all the time, it is yur fault.
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On March 31 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 19:28 THAmarx wrote:On March 31 2011 17:48 5unrise wrote:On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:+ Show Spoiler + no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase. yeah because the "disadvantages" Terrans face on cross positions is anything to compare with the odds faced by a zerg on close positions.. jeezus, get some perspective. Cross positions simply means you actually are getting a decent challenge in a TvZ, which is what it should be. actual they are... terran is as slow and immobile as it gets. while zerg has the fastest units on and of creep. And zerg has the best macro abilities of all the races. That is why terran has to do damage or it's a auto loss. on cross positions terran can do hellions drops banshee or a big push. But when zerg goes for a couple of mutas banshee and drops are denied (not cost effective anymore). Then you have to put all in that one big push and if it fails your a goner. a good zerg denies reinforcement while you crawl to the zerg base and he can easily scout your army so he knows which units he has to produce more to counter. So no room for mistakes here for the terran player. Your perspective is so zerg only. Just because you can't survive close positions doesn't mean that all odds are against you. Don't cry to much but focus on learning to play better against the matchup. Don't auto think i lost because of close position, but look back and see your errors. Make some new strategies or adapt your timings. I played enough good zergs who didnt liked close postion but had no problem playing it the same way as i as terran scouts cross position. when you lose it's always hard to blame it on yourself... that why we have so much ridiculous post here about blizzard and imba's. because it is so simple to just blame something else. but most of the time it is because of your own faults. umm I never said I don't try to improve, but that has nothing to do with the fact that close spawns is not remotely fair. Why do people liek you like to put words into other people's mouths? Oh by the way.. a good terran knows when to "crawl" and when to just stim run into a zerg base. If zerg has an army, you crawl, because the macro advantage rests with you if he hasn't droned, if zerg has only mutas, or is about to make units, you stim and run to his door. If you crawl, he will mass his units and getting away with the macro advantage. This knowledge is infinitely helpful to any terran who needs to play a map involving any reasonable distance. If you only know how to 'crawl" all the time, it is yur fault.
terran units are crawling units... 2.25 for most units and siegetanks are slower and a must for terran. stimming to run at those distances your bio army is in the red and your siegetanks thors are very far behind. the movement of terran always feels like crawling. yes a few stimmed can run faster but you sacrifice alot of health for just getting a little of distance ?
no you as slow as the slowest unit there in the push.
but it's a game of balance... the closer the better for terran the further the better for zerg... that just how these mechanics work. I don't say its auto loss for terran on cross but its just the same as it is for zerg on close.
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then can we remove long distance positions? cuz the disadvantage z gets in close positions is similar if not the same as the disadvantage t or p gets in long positions
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Against Zerg the other races do often get kind of a freewin because the Zerg Player has to react to what the other race does so the timezone he got to react gets a lot smaller and preparing for the attack becomes much harder.
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I think the occasional short rush distance is ok and mixes up your ladder experience. I'm a random player and you can also do super effective baneling aggression via those short distances, so I don't think those spawns are a definite disadvantage for Zerg.
The only problem lies with the map pool imho. There are too many maps with super short distances, so even if you downvote 3 maps you will still have short distances a lot. This might also contribute to people being so annoyed with close spawns.
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it doesnt make any sense to remove steppes of war and leave steppes of war-versions of metalopolis and temple in the pool
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On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:
no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase.
In all honestly the problems terran has in cross spots are L2P issues. Whereas zergs problems in close spots are fundamental flaws of gameplay.
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On March 30 2011 08:26 Skillz_Man wrote:
I want to ask, what difference does close or cross positions on shattered temple make in zvp? As a protoss I'll have a close pylon anyways. I'm personally really enjoy close positions so I'm againsts it... I think it's fine - Until you're top top masters a push arriving 5-10 seconds earlier would have killed you either way and it's way overdone.
If you have such a problem, don't play those maps.
Maybe it is because your protoss and you already claim to use proxy pylons, but there is something called a third base.
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TL;DR
Metal without close positions would be the best map ever.
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On March 31 2011 21:11 nathangonmad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:
no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase. In all honestly the problems terran has in cross spots are L2P issues. Whereas zergs problems in close spots are fundamental flaws of gameplay.
was just gonna post that. close positions are just inherently imbalanced especially for zerg because any kind of push is at ur nat in record time, and reinforced instantly. you have to play x15 times better than the other guy to win close positions. you can bet i all-in every time i get a ZvT/ZvP on close positions. i'd rather lose/win in 7 mins than 90% lose a macro game in 15.
example was tonight on the ladder i played a terran on tal darim, and he didnt expo by 7 mins, i scouted with ovie/poked with lings. saw a cheesy 1 base, blueflame/mara/thor/scv all in push, easily stopped it because i had the eco+map length to pump units to easily beat it.
i click find match instantly, i get him again. close positions metal. he does the same exact same thing. knew it was coming. didnt stand a chance. i had half the amount of drones as i did last game, half the time to make units. it really feels like on close positions you can't even make enough drones to fight off any push. if they don't expo by 7 mins, you have to blindly make units to fight off a push, and hope they didnt sneak a cc in their main behind their all in or you're behind.
garbage. just encourages one base/two base timing all in play. the most frustrating thing is, the players beating me on close positions don't even fathom taking a third base because they couldn't keep up with the macro. frustrating.
/whine
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I think that the problems people have with close positions is less to do with the early game and more to do with the mid-late game. Expansions are just harder to hold for the zerg as the expand far away. plus any re-enforcements from these Hatches take longer to get to where they need to be. I play toss so not that worryed  but I still don't think that games are as good when people spawn too close.
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On March 31 2011 21:11 nathangonmad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:
no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase. In all honestly the problems terran has in cross spots are L2P issues. Whereas zergs problems in close spots are fundamental flaws of gameplay.
Wait.. let me guess.. you conclude that, because it's common knowledge that Zerg players have higher inherent skill than Terran players so any problem they face warrants and immediate patch while Terrans are just noobs that abused their race to Master league and are now in trouble as the game gets more balanced?
Damn.. this 'Zerg logic' is getting really old and was already flawed back in beta.
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i like spawning close posi as zerg, means i can expand easily at t2 while my opponent can't. But most games are won before t2 even as opponents kill themself with their blind timing pushes. I mean early game zerg on creep is like the other races at a ramp. And still lots of players actually put more then they should into this early game push.
Only thing that is a bit annoying close posi is a tank or immortal timing push. Or a wide open natural, i miss LT was way easier to defend then shattered ^^.
But if those timing pushes fail close posi its over, cross posi its possible to hold the zerg conter, but close posi once you start to think about retreating the game is over.
I mean every race has abilitys allowing to take an expo even if the opponent is keeping you cut off from the map and the zergs one is by far the strongest. And there are enough timing pushes for the zerg as well, so i don't really see an issue with close posis.
But i guess zerg maphack makes it easier to play cross posi games and zergs in general got to lazy to scout with stuff involving ressources, so most players are caught off guard close air or ground.
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On March 31 2011 21:39 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:11 nathangonmad wrote:On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:
no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase. In all honestly the problems terran has in cross spots are L2P issues. Whereas zergs problems in close spots are fundamental flaws of gameplay. Wait.. let me guess.. you conclude that, because it's common knowledge that Zerg players have higher inherent skill than Terran players so any problem they face warrants and immediate patch while Terrans are just noobs that abused their race to Master league and are now in trouble as the game gets more balanced? Damn.. this 'Zerg logic' is getting really old and was already flawed back in beta.
You can watch A LOT of macro games of TvZ when terran wins in straight up macro game where zerg does not make any critical mistakes. And all that in best tournements, so that pretty much says that on huge maps ZvT is pretty fair. And if you watch ZvT on close pos meta or LT you can see that zerg wins when either terran made mistakes or zerg made some kind of all-in.
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On March 31 2011 21:11 nathangonmad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 16:23 THAmarx wrote:
no, don't remove close positions.
why: same as zerg has more problems on close positions terran has more problem on cross positions. And as terran should learn to know how to play cross positions as has zerg to learn how to play close positions.
if zerg maby won't auto fe but go pool first they would have much less trouble to start with.
i don't know how the percentage now is in evening out between cross or close postions.
but if you look statisticly and if the chance to be on every spot is the same the you get double time the close position, that i don't find fair. cross or close should be 50% 50%. I don't know or that is already the chase. In all honestly the problems terran has in cross spots are L2P issues. Whereas zergs problems in close spots are fundamental flaws of gameplay.
They're really not. Back when T could build rax before depot and P didn't have the zealot build time nerf, they *might* have been, but right now Z is the only race that can begin to threaten the opponent with an army starting pool before overlord. A cross position fast expansion as Zerg cannot be punished if it's played correctly, but if your opponent metagames you and goes early pool your 14 CC/Nexus is not going to stand.
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If close positions were eliminated cross pos should also be eliminated, then we're left with close by air which would make a terrible map.
Seriously, some people has to try to improve-_-'
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I know it mostly zerg worried about spawn positions. But there are other MU's to consider as well. In TvT spawning cross map can be a pain. On Taldrim Altar for instance. It will take forever to kill your opponent. Tank play often takes all the pace out of such a game, and you could easily end up in a game of over an hour. No fun.
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EPT
