EPTJus saying
I don't really like close spawns but it's just another perspectiveThe Close Spawning Position [poll] - Page 25
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
Jus saying I don't really like close spawns but it's just another perspective | ||
|
ryan1894
Australia264 Posts
On July 17 2011 04:54 InvalidID wrote: Voted no as a protoss. The ladder is, in my opinion, for training. I feel I learn a lot from the close position games, in terms of developing safe macro practices. It makes mistakes and builds much more pointed. Even if it is unfair, consider it like what swimmers do when training sometimes-they wear suits with extra drag to increase training load. Thats like saying swim 10km with 20kg of bricks tied to your feet. I'm pretty sure the win ratios for Zerg on close spawn metalopolis/shattered are close to probably 10-30%. The only time Zerg wins is when Protoss/Terran play extremely greedy or the Zerg is unbelievably better than the P/T - which shouldn't happen on ladder. Find me a Masters or GM League game of ZvT or ZvP where the Z wins. Then find me a game where the T or P is competent. | ||
|
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On July 17 2011 19:19 ProxyKnoxy wrote: If close spawns are favoured for Terran then aren't non-close spawns favoured for Zerg? Jus saying I don't really like close spawns but it's just another perspectiveIf you remove a position that strongly favors a race over another isn't equal with shifting balance towards the other race. Close spawns heavily favors Terran over Zerg whereas close air / far distance does not put Terran at a real disadvantage. It just evens out stuff. You can still rush or cheese and put pressure, but Zerg can actually do something against it. | ||
|
Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
If close spawns are favoured for Terran then aren't non-close spawns favoured for Zerg? no. You can still all-in in cross position, you can still cheese cross position. You can't macro close position. Thats the difference. They created a race which has to macro and create map spawns which deny it. Give zerg powerful and hard to scout all-ins, and close position is fine again. Its not that zerg wants to macro no matter what. There are times i just want to go all-in because going into macro games every game kinda sucks... But then again, i look at the ramp, the wall-in, my options to all-in... shake my head just wait for the scv train | ||
|
Herculix
United States946 Posts
| ||
|
.Storm
United States28 Posts
On July 17 2011 19:40 Herculix wrote: as soon as i scout close positions i just cheese. this has led to me having a better understanding of cheese as zerg since i've done it so many times, my cheese is more creative and all that, but close still sucks because winning a real game is incredibly unlikely. it isolates your strategy into a coin flip almost entirely regardless of what the strategy is. QFT //woops, enter just made me post but anyways what i was saying was that when i scout close spawns on metalopolis i usually just do "one base roach" and attack, usually allows for an easy win. Otherwise it means i have to work my ass off to try and get map control and usually just go mutas to try and defend my third which will usually be the close air main. as for the main argument, i do feel like close spawn is unfair in pro play, which is why in tournaments like MLG they take out close spawns but in ladder i don't mind as much because it practically forces a zerg player who LOVES macro and the late game (like me) to try cheesy tactics like "one base roach" or "baneling bust all in." Kind of mixes it up a little. | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If close spawns are broken then aren't non-close spawns balanced? Fixed. | ||
|
Zedex
United Kingdom310 Posts
| ||
|
Kiaro
United States75 Posts
| ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
So you say close position is a 'headache', but right now the only reason ZvT is balanced is because Terran autolose big maps and Zerg autolose small maps? So is that why Zerg always win tournaments, because close spawn is removed? You register an account to post here something no one agrees with, and use ridiculous logic to say so. The game needs to be balanced, saying that the game is balanced because Zerg always win on certain maps, and Terran always win on certain maps, therefore game is balanced, is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You're also aware that far spawns on Metal and ST are the same distance as Xel Naga Caverns right? But I guess everyone knows that XNC is a just a completely broken map, which is why Zerg win 100% on it, because the game is imbalanced, and the only way Terran stands a chance or makes the win ratio 50-50 is because of close spawn... even though tournaments remove close spawn. | ||
|
Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Poll: Should Blizzard Eliminate Close Positions On These Maps Yes! (3087) No! (state why below) (738) 3825 total votes Your vote: Should Blizzard Eliminate Close Positions On These Maps 3000+ people and if you think the majority of them are Zerg players, I think you're just trolling. Aside from 20% of voters, close spawn should be eliminated. I'm sure these results could be replicated in numerous polls. I'm also sure I am yet to see an argument that makes sense posted by someone who said no. But I have seen many arguments that flat out state they don't want close positions removed because they want easy wins. | ||
|
DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
| ||
|
Special Tactics
Ukraine233 Posts
| ||
|
Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Why is metalopolis still in the pool? | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'd rather they removed close spawns then removed that map. God forbid they replace it with another slag pits or delta quadrant. Even shattered temple is a pretty lame, boring map. LT was kind of a cool map, it was sad to see it go but it was necessary due to how ridiculous it was. That's just the State of the game right now, it's still not really developed enough to really be able to play with things like close spawn or lots of cliffs. | ||
|
Kiaro
United States75 Posts
On July 18 2011 20:45 Belial88 wrote: ^ What statistics? So you say close position is a 'headache', but right now the only reason ZvT is balanced is because Terran autolose big maps and Zerg autolose small maps? So is that why Zerg always win tournaments, because close spawn is removed? You register an account to post here something no one agrees with, and use ridiculous logic to say so. The game needs to be balanced, saying that the game is balanced because Zerg always win on certain maps, and Terran always win on certain maps, therefore game is balanced, is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You're also aware that far spawns on Metal and ST are the same distance as Xel Naga Caverns right? But I guess everyone knows that XNC is a just a completely broken map, which is why Zerg win 100% on it, because the game is imbalanced, and the only way Terran stands a chance or makes the win ratio 50-50 is because of close spawn... even though tournaments remove close spawn. Metalopolis is completely different from xel naga caverns, just cause the rush distance cross spawn is about the same doesn't mean they are equally balanced. There are a lot of other things to account for too, like openness and ways to counterattack that make cross spawn metalopolis worse than xel naga for terran. Actually, a registered an account here to post something some people agree with, if you look at the poll. In fact, over 600 people from this poll alone agree with me. Saying that no one agrees with me shows how biased and one-sided you are. My reasoning is that if the tvz matchup is balanced now, with close spawns, then taking away close spawns would imbalance the matchup since close spawns favor terran. I'm talking about ladder, which effects eveyone, not about tournaments which effect only the pros. | ||
|
Kiaro
United States75 Posts
On July 18 2011 20:54 Probe1 wrote: Belial I think the relevant statistic speaks for itself. 3000+ people and if you think the majority of them are Zerg players, I think you're just trolling. Aside from 20% of voters, close spawn should be eliminated. I'm sure these results could be replicated in numerous polls. I'm also sure I am yet to see an argument that makes sense posted by someone who said no. But I have seen many arguments that flat out state they don't want close positions removed because they want easy wins. I'm pretty sure almost every terran voted no and every non-terran voted yes. People just want whats best for them, and thats why I like close spawns. I'm not surprised at how many people want close spawns to be removed, considering that protoss and zerg are much more numerous on tl than terrans. (I remember seeing a poll taken in may that shows this, I can't find the link though). | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
| ||
|
branflakes14
2082 Posts
| ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Metalopolis is completely different from xel naga caverns, just cause the rush distance cross spawn is about the same doesn't mean they are equally balanced. There are a lot of other things to account for too, like openness and ways to counterattack that make cross spawn metalopolis worse than xel naga for terran. So wait, a map that is 2 long chokes is harder for Terran than a map that is completely wide open with more than 3 attack routes? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Counterattacks are pretty good in any map, Zerg relies on it. It's what Terran has to account for on any map. My reasoning is that if the tvz matchup is balanced now, with close spawns, then taking away close spawns would imbalance the matchup since close spawns favor terran. I'm talking about ladder, which effects eveyone, not about tournaments which effect only the pros. Why would you say it's balanced on close spawn on ladder? It's not, that such a ridiculous assumption. You do realize that the ladder system makes it so you win/lose 50/50 right? So that T or Z is winning 50/50 on ladder just means the ladder is working as intended, it also means it's possible that less skilled T are playing more skilled Z on imbalanced maps, and Blizzard has said exactly that many times in regards to looking at balance with ladder stats. Also, it doesn't matter if ladder affects everyone. What matters is if the game is balanced, just because Zerg is more skilled on average than Terran so therefore we must imbalance the game so the ladder makes it 50/50 isn't right. If you balance the game for tournaments and pros, then you balance the game for everyone. What's most important is game balance, not making sure that Zerg loses 100% on certain maps while Terran lose 100% on others to balance it out. your logic is just ridiculous. And if you read what people say, most say close spawn should be left in for reasons other than balance - they acknowledge that it's broken. It's also 600, an extreme minority. Remember the elvis factor, 10% of people think he's still alive. Many non-Zerg also straight up say they prefer to win more. More than 80% just shows that's it's obvious the community is against it. | ||
| ||
