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Delta Quadrant being the obvious one.
But what about the other two?
Backwater Gulch: The giant ramp is good for Zerg. The rocks can be good or bad for Zerg. It allows them to be more aggressive but Protoss/Terran don't have to move as far to defend (compared to Blistering Sands). Third seems really hard to take.
Pic: + Show Spoiler +
Slag Pits: The close position spawns seem about as close as Delta Quadrant. The natural/ramp position is similar to Delta (SCV/Marine all in can skip your natural and go for the main). Then there is a good spot between bases for tank drops. Though, if you don't spawn close, it seems like a really solid map for Zerg.
Pic: + Show Spoiler +
Shattered Temples: Seems solid. Similar to Lost Temple but without the cliff abuse. Only problem I see is close positions, but that's nothing new compared to Lost Temple.
Pic: + Show Spoiler +
Typhoon Peaks: This map seems really weird. The multiple entrances seem like it'd be hard to defend against Hellions. Except for that, the map is full of narrow passages which seem like it'd make engaging a Toss/Terran army mid-late game hard. But it's a big map, which is something Zerg players always like.
Pic: + Show Spoiler +
Metalopolis: Perhaps this map might be veto-worthy now since close position spawns are extremely hard to handle and the map pool isn't as bad?
Removed Maps:
+ Show Spoiler +(4) Lost Temple -> (4)Shattered Temple
(2) Steppes of War
(2) Jungle Basin
(4) Shakuras Plateau
(2) Blistering Sands -> (4) Backwater Gulch
I hope my brief map analysis is accurate enough. What do you guys think?
Thanks to MrRiceWife for map images and info.
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Right now I have DQ vetod and am strongly considering Backwater Gulch...a 4gate defense right now appears to be very very hard. I havn't played 2 Shattered and Typhoon yet. Additionally Slag I have only played ZvZ which doesn't give the best idea of map balance.
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I'm only going to veto DQ, I'm really happy with all of the new maps and the stuff in the PTR, really amazing step in the right direction by Blizzard.
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DQ, Typhoon, and Backwater.
Typhoon looks bad for zerg because of all the narrow paths for mid-late game, and doesn't look like there's a 3rd that's easy to defend. At least early game does not look like a problem though.
Backwater gulch is terrible for zerg because the natural is so far away from the main. It makes queen transfers and spine transfers extremely slow or unviable. The biggest issue with the huge natural-main separation is that spines and queens become completely useless to defend, which means they'll need lots of lings/roaches exclusively.
Slag pits isn't bad in my opinion. It's maybe a bit small but that's not a big issue.
Shattered temple obviously a big improvement over lost temple. No significant issues that I see.
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sick zerg buff this patch, Typhoon is the one im most concerned about playing on (lowish masters), but Im thinking that with the narrow corridors everywhere that infesters and then broodlords is going to be nasty as hell, so Im trying to work out a decent way to build up to that in each matchup for this map alone
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My vetos are now :
- Delta Quadrant for obvious reasons.
- Backwater Gulch : I tested it when it was on PTR. Defending a 4gate push is so hard. Your main ramp can be forcefielded while you lose your natural expansion..
I can't imagine defending an hellion harass followed by banshees on this map, the distance between your main and your natural is HUGE, which means that you need a lot of creep tumors and time. You can't simply run arround from one base to another with your queens.
- Slag Pits : The 3rd base is poorly designed. The map is not that big. I simply don't like it.
I played a ton on Shattered Temple, I like it a lot but the close position is harder to defend (the Xel'Naga on Lost Temple helped).
I don't know much about Typhon Peaks, but it looks "OK".
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DQ and Typhoon for sure. As for the 3rd map, its kind of hard to say at this point. I will probably switch my veto between Slag Pit and Backwater Gulch a few times. As mentioned by other posters, the distance between main and natural is a pretty big issue for defending drops, hellions and moving/positioning queens and spinecrawlers. This is mostly speculation at this point, as I have not faced these circumstances on the new maps yet. Slag Pits looks far too small and I personally don't like the expansion distribution. Seems people have the same ideas, for the most part.
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Typhoon is actually pretty good for zerg in overall balance out of all the new maps.
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SIGH. zerg QQ
User was warned for this post
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Delta Quadrant, Backwater
those two without a doubt
for the third, probably Slag
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Definitely DQ, Backwater Gulch, and maybe Slag Pits.
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Do you think Gulch would be viable if it was 2 player? Nvm..
I keep looking at it in hopes to find something nice for zerg.. It looks like TVP only.
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On February 26 2011 13:14 WLV wrote:
SIGH. zerg QQ
User was warned for this post
It's not Zerg QQ, it's discussion about which maps they are most disadvantaged at.
I've only played Typhon peaks so far. I can see this map being good for mid-game 3-base pushes. Big middle and easy to defend initial 3 bases. Grabbing and defending a fourth can be really awkward though.
Looking at the other maps, slag pits is basically a 2-base fest.
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Before the patch, possibly Metal would be a ban, but now Stim will take 30 seconds longer, so Metal against T shouldn't be so bad (all-ins etc. will still be hard ofc, but there aren't really any variants so it should be easy to practice against, same with 4gate although to a lesser extent).
Like the new LT though, but yeah the distances are a bit too close. I think if they took out close-positions on Metal and LT then they would be really great (air and cross only).
But ofc they have to cater to the more casual crowd too, and anyways many people like to rush so the close-distance thing is for them I guess.
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Overall the new maps are terrible /thread.
I got rid of Backwater, and DQ
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On February 26 2011 14:06 DrBoo wrote:
Overall the new maps are terrible /thread.
I got rid of Backwater, and DQ
What are you talking about the new map pool was 1000x better for Zerg than the previous one.
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On February 26 2011 14:17 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 14:06 DrBoo wrote:
Overall the new maps are terrible /thread.
I got rid of Backwater, and DQ What are you talking about the new map pool was 1000x better for Zerg than the previous one.
I wouldn't say a 1000x better. But I wouldn't say terrible. We still have to deal with close position attacks just as much as before, but at least now the maps beyond that are more balanced.
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On February 26 2011 14:05 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Before the patch, possibly Metal would be a ban, but now Stim will take 30 seconds longer, so Metal against T shouldn't be so bad (all-ins etc. will still be hard ofc, but there aren't really any variants so it should be easy to practice against, same with 4gate although to a lesser extent).
Like the new LT though, but yeah the distances are a bit too close. I think if they took out close-positions on Metal and LT then they would be really great (air and cross only).
But ofc they have to cater to the more casual crowd too, and anyways many people like to rush so the close-distance thing is for them I guess.
I could be wrong but as a T player, I never really abused stim to get an early advantage.. By the time stim comes around, I never felt like, oh man zerg isn't going to have a chance. I don't ever remember winning a game straight up with stim marines anyhow.
I'm pretty sure the stim nerf was directed towards toss. Again, as a T player... I agree with that nerf because I won high level diamond ladder games ez pz with early stim against protoss.
And no, if you mean 'casual' as in low level, and 'they' as in blizzard... really they don't have to cater to the usual crowd.. and they certainly do not cater to them in anyway. Every patch is always designed around high level play.
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I vetoed DQ, Slag Pits, and Backwater Gulch.
DQ is vetoed for obvious reasons. Slag Pits was a very awkward map on the PTR and just has classic Blizzard map design written all over it. The natural is very wide and hard to defend, there are few bases available for expanding, and the third base is difficult to take and defend. This map does little to improve upon Zerg's situation.
Backwater Gulch has a very unnaturally placed natural that leaves Zerg very vulnerable early on. If you use a build order that calls for building your second queen from your main like I do, getting that second queen to your natural takes FOREVER. Likewise, your queens can't move comfortably between bases for defense until you connect with creep (about 3 or 4 tumors if I recall).
I like the new LT - I didn't veto the old one because it was a good map for ZvP and ZvZ, so this new one is a big improvement overall for me. The other new map I had decent games with on the PTR, but it's not perfect for sure. I'm not a big fan of the destructible rocks and tricky-to-defend expansions, but it's a huge step above Steppes and Jungle Basin.
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Backwater Gulch and slag pits seem to have so close positions when they aren't cross... or maybe it's just me. it seems even closer than metalopolis close position if i look it now. Then again i haven't played the maps so i don't know.
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Slag pits has a ridiculously close rush distance, so if you're the aggressive type, leave this in.
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On February 26 2011 13:22 Saracen wrote:
Definitely DQ, Backwater Gulch, and maybe Slag Pits.
Definitely these 3. I really don't want to play maps where I feel like punching myself in the face 33% of the time when I get close positions. It's the same reason why Zerg's hate rolling the dice on Metal and LT, but honestly, these look even worse than those.
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On February 26 2011 13:22 Saracen wrote:
Definitely DQ, Backwater Gulch, and maybe Slag Pits.
These 3.
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From a Terran/former Toss player's perspective my favorite maps to face Z are:
Delta Quadrant. High chance of close positions and easy push distances.
Probably this new Gulch map. It's very hard to expand and Z has the least efficient 1-base builds (1-base Thor and 4gate probably being the strongest builds for their respective races).
I would veto those for sure. Catz/Sheth/another Z whose name I forget did a review of the new maps along with Gretorp today and they love Slag Pits for Z if you can survive the early game. They were ambivalent toward Typhon and hated Gulch and thought the new LT map was good for Z due to the open spaces. I think Metal may actually be your best option if you feel confident on the other old maps.
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you guys are crazy gulch is fine just open up speed ling infestor dimaga style and the map is fine bcuz u get plenty of creep spread from ur queens and then u have map control with your lings. i like gulch. only map i have dq'd right now is typhoon.
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Shakuras Plateau was removed in exchange for these bad maps? Sigh, please tell me that's a mistake.
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On February 26 2011 19:04 Chocobo wrote:
Shakuras Plateau was removed in exchange for these bad maps? Sigh, please tell me that's a mistake. Unfortunately blizzard though delta quadrant was a better map so they kept that instead of shakuras plateau...
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DQ, Backwater Gulch, Slag Pits.
In Back water Gulch i try to take secret 3rd its only way for me. I thought that blizzard will make something like GSL maps but this ? really ? I think that someone inside of Blizzard is taking free money for map making.
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Im a Terran and have not really decided anything. So my votes are all unused.
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Backwater Gulch and Slag Pits both have a very short ramp to ramp distance on close position and thus have the same problem as LT (ST) and Meta where close positions will be close to impossible to win.
Typhon Peaks has some very narrow paths and it'll be hard to defend a 3rd base.
I'm really unsure what map to downvote now, they're all bad for Zerg.
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First post after new maps posted are Zerg QQ, Can't you just be happy that blizzard is taking a step in the right direction for your race. Not for any other. Keep that in mind.
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On February 26 2011 19:26 asha wrote:
First post after new maps posted are Zerg QQ, Can't you just be happy that blizzard is taking a step in the right direction for your race. Not for any other. Keep that in mind.
Had the maps been an improvement, yes.
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too dark everything 
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On February 26 2011 19:37 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:26 asha wrote:
First post after new maps posted are Zerg QQ, Can't you just be happy that blizzard is taking a step in the right direction for your race. Not for any other. Keep that in mind. Had the maps been an improvement, yes.
Only improvement Zerg is fine with is when roaches has 1 supply and more range. Seemes to me most of you want a bot to win the game for you. instead of vetoing maps you cant play at. Learn new builds. Even if it means you have to baneling bust every game on that map. its not like the terran has any other option early game but to 2 rax pressure. Yes there is the banshee and all other tech options. But on big maps like this. a fast expo is only thing terran can do to keep up macrowise (and still have a disadvantage, couse of the power of zerg and protoss macro) but then atleast terran has a shot at keeping up.
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On February 26 2011 19:49 asha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:37 magha wrote:On February 26 2011 19:26 asha wrote:
First post after new maps posted are Zerg QQ, Can't you just be happy that blizzard is taking a step in the right direction for your race. Not for any other. Keep that in mind. Had the maps been an improvement, yes. Only improvement Zerg is fine with is when roaches has 1 supply and more range. Seemes to me most of you want a bot to win the game for you. instead of vetoing maps you cant play at. Learn new builds. Even if it means you have to baneling bust every game on that map. its not like the terran has any other option early game but to 2 rax pressure. Yes there is the banshee and all other tech options. But on big maps like this. a fast expo is only thing terran can do to keep up macrowise (and still have a disadvantage, couse of the power of zerg and protoss macro) but then atleast terran has a shot at keeping up.
This is a thread about maps and which of them that are the most disadvantageous/not fun for zerg. Take your whine about balance and QQ somewhere else. You don't even play zerg and you have nothing to add to the topic.
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On February 26 2011 19:54 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:49 asha wrote:On February 26 2011 19:37 magha wrote:On February 26 2011 19:26 asha wrote:
First post after new maps posted are Zerg QQ, Can't you just be happy that blizzard is taking a step in the right direction for your race. Not for any other. Keep that in mind. Had the maps been an improvement, yes. Only improvement Zerg is fine with is when roaches has 1 supply and more range. Seemes to me most of you want a bot to win the game for you. instead of vetoing maps you cant play at. Learn new builds. Even if it means you have to baneling bust every game on that map. its not like the terran has any other option early game but to 2 rax pressure. Yes there is the banshee and all other tech options. But on big maps like this. a fast expo is only thing terran can do to keep up macrowise (and still have a disadvantage, couse of the power of zerg and protoss macro) but then atleast terran has a shot at keeping up. This is a thread about maps and which maps are most disadvantageous for zerg. Take your whine about balance and QQ somewhere else. You don't even play zerg and you have nothing to add to the topic.
lol dude : P i play zerg -. -
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On February 26 2011 19:56 asha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:54 vrok wrote:On February 26 2011 19:49 asha wrote:On February 26 2011 19:37 magha wrote:On February 26 2011 19:26 asha wrote:
First post after new maps posted are Zerg QQ, Can't you just be happy that blizzard is taking a step in the right direction for your race. Not for any other. Keep that in mind. Had the maps been an improvement, yes. Only improvement Zerg is fine with is when roaches has 1 supply and more range. Seemes to me most of you want a bot to win the game for you. instead of vetoing maps you cant play at. Learn new builds. Even if it means you have to baneling bust every game on that map. its not like the terran has any other option early game but to 2 rax pressure. Yes there is the banshee and all other tech options. But on big maps like this. a fast expo is only thing terran can do to keep up macrowise (and still have a disadvantage, couse of the power of zerg and protoss macro) but then atleast terran has a shot at keeping up. This is a thread about maps and which maps are most disadvantageous for zerg. Take your whine about balance and QQ somewhere else. You don't even play zerg and you have nothing to add to the topic. lol dude : P i play zerg -. -
He's still right though, its not about balance, its about which of these bad maps are worse and should be vetoed.
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On February 26 2011 19:56 asha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:54 vrok wrote:On February 26 2011 19:49 asha wrote:On February 26 2011 19:37 magha wrote:On February 26 2011 19:26 asha wrote:
First post after new maps posted are Zerg QQ, Can't you just be happy that blizzard is taking a step in the right direction for your race. Not for any other. Keep that in mind. Had the maps been an improvement, yes. Only improvement Zerg is fine with is when roaches has 1 supply and more range. Seemes to me most of you want a bot to win the game for you. instead of vetoing maps you cant play at. Learn new builds. Even if it means you have to baneling bust every game on that map. its not like the terran has any other option early game but to 2 rax pressure. Yes there is the banshee and all other tech options. But on big maps like this. a fast expo is only thing terran can do to keep up macrowise (and still have a disadvantage, couse of the power of zerg and protoss macro) but then atleast terran has a shot at keeping up. This is a thread about maps and which maps are most disadvantageous for zerg. Take your whine about balance and QQ somewhere else. You don't even play zerg and you have nothing to add to the topic. lol dude : P i play zerg -. -
I guess I assumed that an actual zerg player would at least be able to comment on the actual topic instead of just spouting irrelevant zerg QQ whine/balance nonsense.
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Backwater Gulch could be the worst zerg map ever made. It takes multiple tumors to connect to your natural, the natural is extremely vulnerable to harass at the start of the game and then again later because of the destructable rocks. And just when you thought it was over they made your 3rd additionally far away in the opposite direction. Oh and the map is small ><.
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Imo play the maps and find out. (write down your win loss ratio against races etc you will find out really fast if the map is fun for you to play)
I for example love dq when i play zerg, especially when you spawn not cross posi and your behind main expansion is away from the opponent its like a free win. So many expos *-*
(just don't inject with your first 25 energies on maps like delta and you are fine D: )
PS: if you voted down a map for a long time probably not worth to uncheck the box as people who are familiar with the map will stomp you anyway
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North to South spawn on typhon peaks is incredibly imbalanced. Think shakuras plateau zvt horizontal spawn tank push, only this distance is smaller than incineration zone.
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On February 26 2011 21:20 Medzo wrote:
North to South spawn on typhon peaks is incredibly imbalanced. Think shakuras plateau zvt horizontal spawn tank push, only this distance is smaller than incineration zone.
Yes, I just noticed this as well. It's like a shorter pathway scrap station thru-the-middle style. If Blizz took out Shakuras because of positional imbalance and then put Typon Peaks with this map feature(failure)................... -_-
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Backwater Gulch is horrible.
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I'm having 2nd thoughts about my 3rd vetoed map. DQ and Backwater are staying for sure, but when it comes down to slag vs typhoon, I dunno.
Close positions on either map is obviously quite disastrous for ZvT. And side positions on slag your main mineral line can actually get sieged from the low ground, but it gives you more room around the natural to mess with Protoss. It looks much easier for Toss to 3 gate expand on typhoon in comparison and be able to cover their expansion mineral line + their ramp.
Slag is quite wide open as well, more so than typhoon, and it seems like it'll be more difficult for P/T to take a 3rd on this map than typhoon.
So I'm leaning towards vetoing typhoon over slag right now. Thoughts?
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currently i have SS, Xel'Naga, and DQ down voted (for new map testing)
however, once i get a general feel for them.. i'll probably downvoted DQ, Backwater, and ... maybe Xel'Naga?
idk... a 3rd is up in the air, but def. DQ and Backwater
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it blows my mind that they removed shakuras platuea, it was one of the best maps there, alot of these new "big" maps, are... well im scared to still use the words "small" but they don't look all that improved to me... afew good replacements, but some good maps where removed in the process...
The picture I get in my head when I suddenly log in and see a whole new map pool(nearly) and they don't even seem all that good, compared to if they had sticked to their earlier idea of using GSL maps, is that... I see dustin tune in on our screens with a big smily face saying "Hey!, look what we just made, NOW LOVE IT!"
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I love all new maps. I only have DQ on my veto. Backwater Gulch is hard to defend against 4-gate, but otherwise its fine. I go for roach rush on that map.
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i played once on backwater, its enough, just like in jungle basin case played once and vetoed, dq ofc still thinking about third
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These maps really aren't a step in the right direction. It's nice to have new shit for a change, but different isn't better.
I played these maps for a bit on the PTR and they virtually have the same problems as the old ones did; positional imbalances, backdoor rocks everywhere, poor expansion layouts, etc.
The GSL maps would be great to have instead. I don't think many people would be unhappy if the swap-in happened tomorrow. All in all, still not excited to jump back into ladder. ;\
Currently have DQ and Backwater vetoed, will probably end up getting rid of The Pits as well. As it seems to be...the pits.
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DQ and backwater is terrible... DQ we all know why, backwater is closer rush distance then steppes <.<.... my next veto (no matter race) would be Slag Pits, the main and natural is SO far apart, even the ramp is far from the natural... it's like extremely hard to defend.. it's a map asking for cheese/one base all in...
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My lord I hate Backwater Gulch, ZvP is just a joke, 4gate and force fields are literally broken in the small chokepoints.
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On February 26 2011 12:30 Xapti wrote:
Backwater gulch is terrible for zerg because the natural is so far away from the main. It makes queen transfers and spine transfers extremely slow or unviable. The biggest issue with the huge natural-main separation is that spines and queens become completely useless to defend, which means they'll need lots of lings/roaches exclusively.
[/b]
since when became a long nat distance a reason to downvote? put up a early tumour and place spines on the ramp.
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Is it just me or does "Shattered Temple" just feel like a tweaked Metalopolis with the gold in a (slightly) different spot?
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Backwater, Slag, and Delta are out for me.
Low masters league
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On February 27 2011 02:33 AimlessAmoeba wrote:
Is it just me or does "Shattered Temple" just feel like a tweaked Metalopolis with the gold in a (slightly) different spot?
Close positions are a little less imbalanced, and the fact that you can actually go through the middle makes it quite a bit different. I mean yeah there are some similarities, but it plays a lot differently.
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All the new maps except new LT.. I wish I could have 5 vetos tho..
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is it just me or does it feel like the distance between your main and natural in backwater is actually longer than the distance between ramps between bases..
anyways, i like using spines against 4 gate. but on backwater.. well.. i'm probably better off using an ol to defend haha
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I vetoed slag pits and DQ
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DQ and slag feel like a given to me, but for the third?
Typhon and Backwater both feel bad, and I have a hard time pinpointing which is worse. Typhon has the vertical spawn tank/colossus unstoppable push to deal with, and horizontal positions aren't exactly good, and there's no open areas. On the other hand, theres enough paths for lings to abuse for counterattacks given no vertical spawn, and protoss has a hard time taking their nat (One of the easiest maps to execute a losira timing against a 3gate expo.)
Backwater (only in comparison to Typhon. The other maps are clearly less bad than these two.) has a tighter nat and base area, but the third feels safer to take (once you knock down whichever rocks are relevant to connecting your third.) It also feels easier to deny T/P their third. Close positions are a bit scary push-distance wise but the high ground + huge ramp / ability to sneak out through your own backdoor rocks for a flanking position helps a lot when they're sieging up at your ramp.
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I have delta quad, typhon peaks, and backwater vetoed
Delta cuz its imba
typhon just because i hate the color scheme and its got rly narrow chokes everywhere
backwater cuz its so easy to cannon rush on that map
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/lBJvG.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/WinUa.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/54P9w.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/CUC2Z.png)
