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+ Show Spoiler +On February 28 2011 02:22 Mentymion wrote:
With each patch Blizzard announce, the "balance" gets even worse. For me it's certain that David Kim and his "Balance Team" have absolutley no clue how to balance the game AND whats more important, they don't know what to do with the units and whats their purpose.
StarCraft II Beta - Patch 6 (version 0.8.0.14593)
Bunker Build time decreased from 40 seconds to 30 seconds.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.1.0
Bunker Build time increased from 30 to 35.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - PTR 1.3
Bunker Build time increased from 35 to 40. <----I swear this will solve anything....oh wait...probably not.
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StarCraft II Beta - Patch 1 (version 0.3.0.14093)
Fungal Growth: The damage done by this ability has decreased from 48 to 36.
Fungal Growth: This ability now prevents affected units from burrowing.
StarCraft II Beta - Patch 9 (version 0.11.0.15097)
Fungal Growth projectile removed; Units in the target area are now instantly hit.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.1.2
Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - PTR 1.3
Fungal Growth
- Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
- Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.
- Now fires a missile instead of being instant cast. <--- The last change for Fungal growth ?, I guess not
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StarCraft II Beta - Patch 12 (version 0.14.0.15343)
Mothership:
Vortex now removes Force Fields within its area of effect.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - PTR 1.3
Mothership:
Units leaving the Mothership's Vortex are now un-targetable and immune to damage for 1.5 seconds.
Took them ashitload of time to notice that this could be done with Archons,too...
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StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - PTR 1.3
High Templar
- Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Well if that happens I probably switch my race or wait for the next expansion. Sure Warp-In Storms might be a bit too strong but the only solution they have.....remove here , remove there.
Why not removing the Reaper instead ? Blizzard has nerfed this unit into Oblivion anyway
Build time increased from 40 to 45.
Barracks requirement changed from Command Center to Supply Depot.
Nitro Packs speed upgrade now has a Factory Requirement.
Roach Range increased from 3 to 4.
And now the unit is finally dead and Blizzard doesn't even care about it.
If all the changes comes true....dear god is the game fucked up.
Useless Reapers, restricted usage of already underused Motherships, High/Dark Templar Tech finally turns into complete Garbage, PvT & PvZ turns into "War of the Worlds" where Colossi is a Must-Have, Neural Parasite is still shit, Corruptors have not even changed in the slightest and so on.
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On February 28 2011 02:22 Mentymion wrote:
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StarCraft II Beta - Patch 1 (version 0.3.0.14093)
Fungal Growth: The damage done by this ability has decreased from 48 to 36.
Fungal Growth: This ability now prevents affected units from burrowing.
StarCraft II Beta - Patch 9 (version 0.11.0.15097)
Fungal Growth projectile removed; Units in the target area are now instantly hit.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - Patch 1.1.2
Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.
StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty - PTR 1.3
Fungal Growth
- Stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
- Damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.
- Now fires a missile instead of being instant cast. <--- The last change for Fungal growth ?, I guess not
Don't forget how infestors were 120 before, and then 90, and back to 110 again... I couldn't agree more with your post.
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Interesting, I did not know that fungal used to be a projectile. I would really like increased range if they wont change the armored value I mean its hard enough to control them let alone know that they take extra damage from tanks.. I think a larger fungal range would fix alot of problems in most all the matchups...this more damage thing shuold be good.
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You guys do understand that its essentially a different game now compared to what it was during the beta phases?
Its the cutting edge pro-scene and what players come up with that defines the whole balance of the game. In beta they simply had way less data to work with, hence the decisions that were made could've actually been the wrong ones. They are now trying to fix that, by maybe reintroducing elements that were interesting dynamics but were deemed "overpowered" at the time. Nothing wrong with it, balance is a constantly evolving thing after all.
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On February 28 2011 03:20 Bagi wrote:
You guys do understand that its essentially a different game now compared to what it was during the beta phases?
Its the cutting edge pro-scene and what players come up with that defines the whole balance of the game. In beta they simply had way less data to work with, hence the decisions that were made could've actually been the wrong ones. They are now trying to fix that, by maybe reintroducing elements that were interesting dynamics but were deemed "overpowered" at the time. Nothing wrong with it, balance is a constantly evolving thing after all.
This isn't true. The majority of players, the bronze and silver leaguers define balance.
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On February 28 2011 03:20 Bagi wrote:
You guys do understand that its essentially a different game now compared to what it was during the beta phases?
Its the cutting edge pro-scene and what players come up with that defines the whole balance of the game. In beta they simply had way less data to work with, hence the decisions that were made could've actually been the wrong ones. They are now trying to fix that, by maybe reintroducing elements that were interesting dynamics but were deemed "overpowered" at the time. Nothing wrong with it, balance is a constantly evolving thing after all. You cant look at their new map pool and reasoning behind it and tell me they balance this game around the "cutting edge pro-scene".
They balance this game for casual players, and its growing painfully obvious.
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I always love how people goes balls out bunkers on every single PTR notes...it's PTR for a reason. I'd think all the general notes will be implemented, but I'm not sure on infestor and bunker.
Interestingly the damage is not reduced, so it is made more powerful when it's hit, that's why it's also projectile. We would have to just wait on more results
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"Start with 62, 250 max"
Personally i thing they should do this to all spell casters. It would make Ravens more viable because you could bank 2 HSM instead of 1.
It would also make not suiciding and preserving your SpellCasters more important like in BW. People these days just suicide their spell casters.
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On February 28 2011 03:22 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 03:20 Bagi wrote:
You guys do understand that its essentially a different game now compared to what it was during the beta phases?
Its the cutting edge pro-scene and what players come up with that defines the whole balance of the game. In beta they simply had way less data to work with, hence the decisions that were made could've actually been the wrong ones. They are now trying to fix that, by maybe reintroducing elements that were interesting dynamics but were deemed "overpowered" at the time. Nothing wrong with it, balance is a constantly evolving thing after all. This isn't true. The majority of players, the bronze and silver leaguers define balance.
This is true to a large degree and they've already stated this as such. The rationale behind the zealot build time nerf was because it was a 'bit too difficult' to hold off e.g. low level players could not beat another low level player doing a zealot rush because of the high level of micro needed to fend it off successfully before you have units on the field.
When everyone is at high level, its balanced, but it was taking advantage of the relative low skill of players you're playing against being unable to deal with it. This was seen (probably right so) as unfair and was patched. There are other 'low skill, high effectiveness' strategies but they don't all get patched unless they're proving very problematic.
edit: also, we're talking about a game that is supposed to be fun to play.
Imagine, if you will, that for every single game of TvP, there were two main viable plays. Terran opens 3 rax aggression / all in, P turtles until colossus. Imagine if these two strategies were so good, that you wouldn't bother with other strategies. Just like how now, going colossus tech is almost always better than going carrier tech. Why bother when there is something better? Even if the matchups are balanced and 49% of the time the terran wins with his early 3 rax aggression, 49% of the time the protoss wins with colossus balls and the other 2% something weird happens (e.g. base trade :p) - this isn't a fun game.
As such, even though the top level of play and the skill ceiling is a fantastic indicator of balance, I disagree with others that its the only level of play that the game should be balanced for, because this is a game that's supposed to be fun, thats supposed to be varied, not one dimensional only for the pros to play where whoever did 'strategy x' best wins, there should be 'Ahh, I went bio and he went DT expand, fff, need to tech to ravens' - it makes the game fun and interesting.
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regardless what blizzard does, the TL horde turns it down. The new maps are an improvement, and at least they care for balance. Let's see what comes out of 1.3 and how it plays :-).
If the game is not somewhat balanced at lower levels, wher should the esports spectators and the money come from ? Just play BW if you're that pro and you like a game nobody out of korea cares :-D
*not a fanboy*
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On February 28 2011 03:37 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
regardless what blizzard does, the TL horde turns it down. The new maps are an improvement, and at least they care for balance. Let's see what comes out of 1.3 and how it plays :-).
*not a fanboy*
Thats not true at all, I think theres plenty of stuff they could have done which TL users would approve. Nerfing the amulet instead of removing it for example.
Or replacing Delta Quadrant and Steppes of War with 2 of the new maps, instead of replacing 2 good maps (Blistering and Shakuras). Or adding the GSL and/or ESL (iccup) maps.
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On February 28 2011 03:22 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 03:20 Bagi wrote:
You guys do understand that its essentially a different game now compared to what it was during the beta phases?
Its the cutting edge pro-scene and what players come up with that defines the whole balance of the game. In beta they simply had way less data to work with, hence the decisions that were made could've actually been the wrong ones. They are now trying to fix that, by maybe reintroducing elements that were interesting dynamics but were deemed "overpowered" at the time. Nothing wrong with it, balance is a constantly evolving thing after all. This isn't true. The majority of players, the bronze and silver leaguers define balance.
If this was true, things like marauders would've been nerfed to the ground ages ago. Blizzard has arguably done a good job balancing the game so far, taking small steps to weed out the most blatant imbalances.
Besides, even those silver players tend to use strategies that are currently popular, e.g. those that are developed by pro players. Pro players define the entire metagame, and thats what they seek to balance.
As for the map thing: just because Blizzard doesnt agree with the common notion here that macro games are the only ones worth playing does not mean they are inherently wrong. I'm pretty sure the map pool will always include maps where the rush distances are short and the expansions harder to secure. Those maps may not be included in every tournament, but they will be there to bring variety to the pool.
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On February 28 2011 03:37 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
regardless what blizzard does, the TL horde turns it down. The new maps are an improvement, and at least they care for balance. Let's see what comes out of 1.3 and how it plays :-).
If the game is not somewhat balanced at lower levels, wher should the esports spectators and the money come from ? Just play BW if you're that pro and you like a game nobody out of korea cares :-D
*not a fanboy* I doubt the TL horde would turn it down if they did something right for once, of course people are going to be pissed over a stupid patch and horrible maps.
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were people really complaining about warp-in storms? storms are dodge-able. hts seem pretty easy to kill off or emp. hts are pretty gas heavy that warping them in at a fast rate hurts too and just for one dodge-able storm.
didn't multi storms stack in BW? storms aren't as clutch is it was in BW and it was fine there.
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On February 26 2011 17:40 Masq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 11:20 Grebliv wrote:
dude, the stim timing nerf makes stim pushes less effective and therefore your opponent is obviously less likely to prepare appropriately for it and therefore it's in reality even more effective than before!
learn to theorycraft :D is this a joke? so nerfing stim research by 30 seconds is a buff? oh boy...
I didn't think this could be misunderstood with the smiley and all but then again I'm making fun of something that can be found in half the posts on the strategy forum.
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On February 28 2011 03:44 orthopod wrote:
were people really complaining about warp-in storms? storms are dodge-able. hts seem pretty easy to kill off or emp. hts are pretty gas heavy that warping them in at a fast rate hurts too and just for one dodge-able storm.
didn't multi storms stack in BW? storms aren't as clutch is it was in BW and it was fine there.
lol no storms NEVER stacked in bw. imagine if they did o.o
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On February 28 2011 03:44 orthopod wrote:
were people really complaining about warp-in storms? storms are dodge-able. hts seem pretty easy to kill off or emp. hts are pretty gas heavy that warping them in at a fast rate hurts too and just for one dodge-able storm.
didn't multi storms stack in BW? storms aren't as clutch is it was in BW and it was fine there.
Let me go warp in an HT behind your mineral line and kill 20 workers with one storm.
That's probably one of the reasons why it got nerfed.
Protoss can reinforce with HT's immediately, but infestors/ghosts cannot, so I don't see any logical reason for Protoss QQ.
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Warp-in storms are damn hard in late game TvP for instance, but P needs that to get an edge.
I once made the suggestion to reintroduce the old Broodwar energy upgrades, with 62.5 energy and an energy base of 250. Completely removing is just non-sense.
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On February 28 2011 03:44 orthopod wrote:
didn't multi storms stack in BW? storms aren't as clutch is it was in BW and it was fine there.
Yes and no. Storms didn't stack in terms of damage, but if you had 4 HTs selected and casted storm, all of them would cast at the same time on the same spot.
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On February 28 2011 03:22 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 03:20 Bagi wrote:
You guys do understand that its essentially a different game now compared to what it was during the beta phases?
Its the cutting edge pro-scene and what players come up with that defines the whole balance of the game. In beta they simply had way less data to work with, hence the decisions that were made could've actually been the wrong ones. They are now trying to fix that, by maybe reintroducing elements that were interesting dynamics but were deemed "overpowered" at the time. Nothing wrong with it, balance is a constantly evolving thing after all. This isn't true. The majority of players, the bronze and silver leaguers define balance.
The zealot building time nerf came to my mind. Remember that time when they increased the building time for the zealot, they said 2 gate was to strong on the lower levels. I guess you are correct sir 
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EPT
