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Since beta it has been thought that units warping in via warpgate take additional damage, but I believe somewhere between beta and now that this was removed (I believe the tooltip on the warping in unit formerly mentioned the additional damage taken while warping in, but that’s no longer the case either).
In order to test this hypothesis, I used zealots and sentries. Assuming a warping in unit generates health linearly over the 5 seconds within which they warp in, zealots should generate 30 health (including shields) per second.
Since zealots have 1 armor for effectively 2/3 of their total health, a sentry’s actual damage can be adjusted on a warping in zealot to 5.333 damage per second.
6 sentries kill a warping in zealot (takes a variable 2.5 seconds of the warping, I assume this is because the AI doesn’t respond instantaneously to a new hostile unit, and sentry damage is frontloaded): suggesting that a zealot’s warping in health per second is less than 32, supporting the theory that they generate 30 health per second.
6*5.333=32dps
Adding +1 shields to the zealot reduces sentry’s damage per second to 5, so the 6 will do 30 damage per second. When this zealot (+1sheilds) is warped in next to a group of 6 sentries, the zealot survives the warp-in, only dying after the full warp in finishes, indicating that the bonus damage from being warped is not likely present at all (or not significant enough to be noticeable).
Most significant flaw: sentry frontloaded damage combined with slightly inconsistent reaction speeds would distort the results if sentries respond too quickly/slowly to a unit warping in; using a voidrays may limit this possible source of error, due to faster attack rate, but that level of accuracy isn’t necessary to reject the theory that warping in units take additional damage.
I’m fairly certain that these results suggest that warping in units don’t take (a significant amount of, if any) of additional damage, but if anyone has any critiques or notices any major flaws in my methodology, I’d appreciate the feedback.
Results for other units:
+ Show Spoiler +
Stalker-160hp/5s=32 hps; takes 6 sentries*5.5dps to kill=33dps; after +1 sheild, stalker survives against 6 sentries*5dps=30dps
DT-120hp/5s=24hps; after +1 armor takes 5 sentries*5.33 dps to kill=26.66dps; after +1 shields, survives against 5 sentries*4.333 dps=23.333dps
Replay of the above scenarios (used megaupload b/c the rep upload site didn’t like the unit_tester_map’s lack of teams):
+ Show Spoiler +
Zealot: [url blocked]
Stalker: [url blocked]
DT: [url blocked]
Edit: woah, I really overdid this...hah, you can just shoot a unit warping in once and see how much it takes, oh well, at least it was fun.
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On February 20 2011 11:12 Ichabod wrote:
Since beta it has been thought that units warping in via warpgate take additional damage, but I believe somewhere between beta and now that this was removed (I believe the tooltip on the warping in unit formerly mentioned the additional damage taken while warping in, but that’s no longer the case either).
huh.. didn't know that they had removed this, so I tested it with an immortal and two stalkers, one warping in and one already finished. Both took the same amount of damage.
Good to know.
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WTF. WOW. All that wasted time target firing warping in units... >:
I am sad.
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Going to take a while getting over the urge to focus fire down the units that are warping in.
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Huh, like many others I've been playing since beta and I swear that warping in units did take additional damage (if not now, then at some point?). This is a bit of a surprise to me, but thanks for clarifying!
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Wow, when did they remove this? I don't recall this being in any patch notes. Or did it never exist?
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ya no point attacking them cause they arent attacking you yet, go for the ones hurting you
cool to know thanks
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I had no idea this was removed either lol... always thought they took extra.
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Wow, really? So glad someone posted this, I always thought that units that were warping in took substantial additional damage.
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On February 20 2011 11:38 Fruscainte wrote:
Wow, when did they remove this? I don't recall this being in any patch notes. Or did it never exist?
Since it wasn't in any of the patch notes, I presume it was removed at release and everyone just took for granted that they took additional damage o.O
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i always wondered
I still shoot them because they have lower hp and easier to 1 shot if you get em early.
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Good job, Ichabod. Being a protoss this is nice to know when reinforcing close to enemy units.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 20 2011 11:12 Ichabod wrote:Since beta it has been thought that units warping in via warpgate take additional damage, but I believe somewhere between beta and now that this was removed (I believe the tooltip on the warping in unit formerly mentioned the additional damage taken while warping in, but that’s no longer the case either). In order to test this hypothesis, I used zealots and sentries. Assuming a warping in unit generates health linearly over the 5 seconds within which they warp in, zealots should generate 30 health (including shields) per second. Since zealots have 1 armor for effectively 2/3 of their total health, a sentry’s actual damage can be adjusted on a warping in zealot to 5.333 damage per second. 6 sentries kill a warping in zealot (takes a variable 2.5 seconds of the warping, I assume this is because the AI doesn’t respond instantaneously to a new hostile unit, and sentry damage is frontloaded): suggesting that a zealot’s warping in health per second is less than 32, supporting the theory that they generate 30 health per second. 6*5.333=32dps Adding +1 shields to the zealot reduces sentry’s damage per second to 5, so the 6 will do 30 damage per second. When this zealot (+1sheilds) is warped in next to a group of 6 sentries, the zealot survives the warp-in, only dying after the full warp in finishes, indicating that the bonus damage from being warped is not likely present at all (or not significant enough to be noticeable). Most significant flaw: sentry frontloaded damage combined with slightly inconsistent reaction speeds would distort the results if sentries respond too quickly/slowly to a unit warping in; using a voidrays may limit this possible source of error, due to faster attack rate, but that level of accuracy isn’t necessary to reject the theory that warping in units take additional damage. I’m fairly certain that these results suggest that warping in units don’t take (a significant amount of, if any) of additional damage, but if anyone has any critiques or notices any major flaws in my methodology, I’d appreciate the feedback. Results for other units: + Show Spoiler +
Stalker-160hp/5s=32 hps; takes 6 sentries*5.5dps to kill=33dps; after +1 sheild, stalker survives against 6 sentries*5dps=30dps
DT-120hp/5s=24hps; after +1 armor takes 5 sentries*5.33 dps to kill=26.66dps; after +1 shields, survives against 5 sentries*4.333 dps=23.333dps Replay of the above scenarios (used megaupload b/c the rep upload site didn’t like the unit_tester_map’s lack of teams): + Show Spoiler +
Zealot: [url blocked]
Stalker: [url blocked]
DT: [url blocked]
Edit: woah, I really overdid this...hah, you can just shoot a unit warping in once and see how much it takes, oh well, at least it was fun.
hm i thought that was common knowledge... i always thought when Sean said extra damage he was saying something along the lines of killing the unit early before it spawns or something.. makes sense if he didn't know or something tho
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I was never even aware that taking extra damage was ever in the game llol Seems like a silly idea, glad they removed it
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They do not take extra damage, but if you have enough units firing you can kill them before all of their HP generates, thereby doing, in effect, extra damage.
Try warping in a Zealot next to 15 Marauders. It should take 15 Marauders 2 volleys to kill a Zealot. I bet if they catch him warping in it will only take 1!
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My mind is effectively blown. I've done so much ineffective target firing, wow.
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I was never aware that warping in units took extra damage, even back in beta. It wouldn't make sense to put in that kind of arbitrary condition.
One thing though, do units warping in have their armor, or do they have 0 armor until they finish warping in the way buildings do?
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if i have enough units to one shot kill other units, i'll still go for the ones warping in. rather have a few dudes attacking me while doing it than to kill 2-3 and suddenly have 4 more at me with full health/shield instead of being damaged.
ESPECIALLY if they're zealots, those are the main one's i focus, a stalker is fine, sentries cause of one less FF
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This needs to be fixed warping in units should take increased damage
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On February 20 2011 12:00 Leeto wrote:
I was never aware that warping in units took extra damage, even back in beta. It wouldn't make sense to put in that kind of arbitrary condition.
One thing though, do units warping in have their armor, or do they have 0 armor until they finish warping in the way buildings do?
They have armor, since a stalker/zealot would have consistently died to 6 sentries each doing 6 dmg/second (since they only gain 32/30 health/second respectively). (and shield/armor upgrades had an effect)
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good to know, good testing, good write-up. if you ever want to write lab reports let me know and i'll send you my results. 
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Yes and no... If you can volley it fast, it dies before it's warped in because at the begging of the warp it starts with less HP, so if you target fire a zealot at the front of a line warping in, chances are you are going to kill it without having to deal the full damage to it.
If you want to see it in terms of DPS, if you outdps the building HPS, you won't need to do the full damage to the unit in order to kill it.
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On February 20 2011 12:07 diegonolan wrote:
This needs to be fixed warping in units should take increased damage
Would you mind stating why?
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Wow good to know i really thought that they still took additional damage.
But i wonder why they removed it, i always thought that it was a somewhat neat idea to balance out warp in when done too close to the fight.
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Just to suggest a simpler and more accurate test, why don't you simply shoot the warping unit once or twicewith a stalker, or a marauder, or something like that?
Afterwards, you can look at how much HP it has, and deduce whether or not that is more damage taken than if you would have hit a full health unit once or twice.
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Anyone know why they would change this mechanic? And btw double pylon overlap doesn't speed up warp in does it?
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United States7166 Posts
yea i had heard a while back that they did but it hasnt seemed that way in a long time, so now it's pretty clear to just go for the units that are already there :/
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Guess they changed this during a recent patch without telling anyone.
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On February 20 2011 11:53 Ketara wrote:
They do not take extra damage, but if you have enough units firing you can kill them before all of their HP generates, thereby doing, in effect, extra damage.
Try warping in a Zealot next to 15 Marauders. It should take 15 Marauders 2 volleys to kill a Zealot. I bet if they catch him warping in it will only take 1!
He raises a good point!
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Edit: woah, I really overdid this...hah, you can just shoot a unit warping in once and see how much it takes, oh well, at least it was fun.
Haha was gonna say, but don't worry! It's good math practice And until they read the end people will be like, wow this is deep stuff... lol
anyways thanks for sharing, I too noticed this and was like, wtf I thought they took more damage? But I also can't remember when this was changed.
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Wouldn't your decision to focus fire warping units depend on how much dps you can achieve? Take the zealot warp in as an example. Assume your can focus fire it for 40 dps and start attacking it after it has been warping in for 1 second. In order for it to die you will only need to be attacking it for 3 seconds, dealing only 120 damage in order to kill it and killing it 0.75 seconds faster than a zealot that has already warped in. The time savings is even greater with higher dps. Imagine that you can deal 60 dps instead. Under the same conditions, it would only take one second to kill the zealot for a savings of 1.5 seconds over an already warped in zealot.
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United States12231 Posts
Oh man, really?? All this time I thought they took double damage. Where did this information come from originally, because it seems like a pretty widespread misconception. It's even in Liquipedia!
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Matrix
"Units that are warping into a Psionic Matrix take double damage from attacks, so one must be careful when warping in units to not expose them to enemy fire."
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nice work, i laughed at the edit at the end my first thought was that when i read how you came to the conclusion i was like wow someone over thinked it. lol either way i always suspected this when playing nice to see that it has been proven
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On February 20 2011 12:43 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 12:07 diegonolan wrote:
This needs to be fixed warping in units should take increased damage Would you mind stating why?
Because warping directly into my base should have a consequence?
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On February 20 2011 15:41 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 12:43 LagT_T wrote:On February 20 2011 12:07 diegonolan wrote:
This needs to be fixed warping in units should take increased damage Would you mind stating why? Because warping directly into my base should have a consequence?
I agree, warping unit right in front of me should have consequences. I mean, warp in already generate unit insanely fast and in any location, it should have some penalty. Terran and zerg unit will have to be rally from all the way back in base but toss can just magically warp in crap load of unit right in front of me or alot of zealot for meat shield with no extra penalty? It doesnt really make sense to me :/
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Kind of related, but I always see people focussing a spine crawler when it uproots and reroots as in 'now's my chance!', completely unsupported by sound logic, rooting or not, you should depend only on what unit has the highest priority to be taken out. It's not like it's going to suddenly spine you if you don't fire when it roots.
In fact, when it roots you should be focussing on other units that actually do damage at that point and remove them from the game. Say you take 35 hp of a rooting spine, that then changes nothing about the amount of dps the opponent can deliver, but if you take that off a zergling, it dies, and the opponent's dps is reduced.
Same thing with warp ins, people always fire at warping in units for the 'now's my chance psychology', while they should actually concentrate their fire on the units whose removal from the game immediately reduces dps, rather than in 3 seconds (assuming it takes 2 to focus a zealot down).
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On February 20 2011 15:49 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Kind of related, but I always see people focussing a spine crawler when it uproots and reroots as in 'now's my chance!', completely unsupported by sound logic, rooting or not, you should depend only on what unit has the highest priority to be taken out. It's not like it's going to suddenly spine you if you don't fire when it roots.
In fact, when it roots you should be focussing on other units that actually do damage at that point and remove them from the game. Say you take 35 hp of a rooting spine, that then changes nothing about the amount of dps the opponent can deliver, but if you take that off a zergling, it dies, and the opponent's dps is reduced.
Same thing with warp ins, people always fire at warping in units for the 'now's my chance psychology', while they should actually concentrate their fire on the units whose removal from the game immediately reduces dps, rather than in 3 seconds (assuming it takes 2 to focus a zealot down).
Well, if the spine takes 50% more damage when uprooted, i would most likely target the spine because taking it out fast before it get a chance to become a pain in the butt :p.
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On February 20 2011 14:58 Zelniq wrote:
yea i had heard a while back that they did but it hasnt seemed that way in a long time, so now it's pretty clear to just go for the units that are already there :/
Wow it's surprising how this could even fool zelniq...I guess we should all take note and stop target firing the warp-in unit, and focus the present units better
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I had no idea they removed this.... Im sure i remember in beta that there was a tip or something that said that they took extra dmg!! Anyways good to know!! Thanks!
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In one of the assembly matches, or TLOpen, I forget... It was a PVP on close positions lost temple at 3 and 6
One protoss did a korean 4gate, and built a bunch of pylons behind his enemies (at 3') mineral line.
He basically kept warping in zealots directly into the middle of the mineral line and was killing a lot of probes... this would not have worked if the +damage when warping was working ._-
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I kind of suspected that warping units weren't taking extra damage... I thought it was just me that was crazy. Good to know.
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I thought I was just really crazy about how little damage warping units took compared to what they took in the beta. Good to know. Honestly I think they should revert this change.
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well this is news to me, thanks alot for the research ichabod!
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Wow, I always thought warping in units took extra damage. I guess not. I was wrong.
Thanks for doing this and posting it.
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On February 20 2011 15:47 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 15:41 Fa1nT wrote:On February 20 2011 12:43 LagT_T wrote:On February 20 2011 12:07 diegonolan wrote:
This needs to be fixed warping in units should take increased damage Would you mind stating why? Because warping directly into my base should have a consequence? I agree, warping unit right in front of me should have consequences. I mean, warp in already generate unit insanely fast and in any location, it should have some penalty. Terran and zerg unit will have to be rally from all the way back in base but toss can just magically warp in crap load of unit right in front of me or alot of zealot for meat shield with no extra penalty? It doesnt really make sense to me :/
There is a penalty - warping units can take damage (and die) before doing something.
Imagine I have 1 marauder beside the only pylon powering a single gate, and one beside a Zerg hatchery. If I warp in a zealot, he'll take 30-50 damage based on if you stim or not before he can attack once. If I morph 4 zerglings, the eggs will take damage, but the zerglings will all pop with 35 health at the moment they hatch. If the same marauder is beside a Terran building, any units emerging cannot take damage before they can return fire.
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On February 20 2011 15:41 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 12:43 LagT_T wrote:On February 20 2011 12:07 diegonolan wrote:
This needs to be fixed warping in units should take increased damage Would you mind stating why? Because warping directly into my base should have a consequence?
Well not only this, but it would improve gameplay for terran and zerg players (coming from a protoss perspective).
If my army is caught out of position and lings try to run up my ramp, I can warp in a zealot to seal my choke. If warping units take additional damage, it could reward the zerg player in this scenario for catching my army out of place and exploiting the opportunity.
Similarly, I often use warp ins to make an artificual wall that prevents fleeing units from escaping. With additional damage taken, these warping in units would not be as big of a problem for escaping units.
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For me it always looked like they don't take extra damage, now we know for sure it's true.
Really bad decision imo, warping units should take damage. Warpin technology already removes distance penalty and there should be a way to punish unsafe warpin.
Not to say even they receive all money back when their pylon is killed while warping (which is bad for a game imo)...
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Your methodology is hilariously over well done. Im pretty sure Ive been under the (apparently) erroneous impression of the extra damage during warp in. Thanks for the nice post.
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On February 20 2011 17:43 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 15:47 SheaR619 wrote:On February 20 2011 15:41 Fa1nT wrote:On February 20 2011 12:43 LagT_T wrote:On February 20 2011 12:07 diegonolan wrote:
This needs to be fixed warping in units should take increased damage Would you mind stating why? Because warping directly into my base should have a consequence? I agree, warping unit right in front of me should have consequences. I mean, warp in already generate unit insanely fast and in any location, it should have some penalty. Terran and zerg unit will have to be rally from all the way back in base but toss can just magically warp in crap load of unit right in front of me or alot of zealot for meat shield with no extra penalty? It doesnt really make sense to me :/ There is a penalty - warping units can take damage (and die) before doing something. Imagine I have 1 marauder beside the only pylon powering a single gate, and one beside a Zerg hatchery. If I warp in a zealot, he'll take 30-50 damage based on if you stim or not before he can attack once. If I morph 4 zerglings, the eggs will take damage, but the zerglings will all pop with 35 health at the moment they hatch. If the same marauder is beside a Terran building, any units emerging cannot take damage before they can return fire.
Hmm, i think the speed of the warp in is fast enough that most protoss just warp in anyways. I mean when i drop protoss, they just warp in unit right in front of me not caring much at all that they could be focused down. Obviously the benefits way out weight the cost of that little disadvantage of being vulnerable during that short period so most will just warp in unit right there. Even protoss are willing to warp in templar right in front of you just to cast a storm risking themselves getting focus but they do it anyways. I just think that protoss should consider where they warp in units more rather then just mindless warping in units where ever they see units there with this small disadvantage.
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im sorry but after skimming over your post and then reading the edit i cant stop laughing. i can just imagine your face after realizing how simple a solution that wouldve been hahahaha. OT is it weird i never thought this and have never focused a warping unit
edit: im a protoss player and i would actually enjoy this being put back in. it would nerf pvp 4 gate so hard without nerfing anything in other matchups too hard. this would make 4 gate into a doable build but not so impossible to stop.
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I used to think that warping in units took extra damage but I heard somewhere (probably on a stream) they that wasn't the case, I'm glad you tested it
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good information. all that time i lost focus firing the warping units
i wonder when blizzard buff protoss like this? they hide the info so that we dont whine??
as if 4gate strat need to be buffed...
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Yeah I always wondered about this. Never felt like they took damage faster :/
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Warping in units taking additional damage would probably fix a bunch of PvP problems without touching other matchups.
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Hmm, well, defending against drops would be harder if the warped in units took more damage.
But I'd always known this too. At least I was fairly certain it still took my marauders about a thousand shots to kill 4 warpping in zealots.
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interesting, might effect where i warp in units, i've always warped in zealots behind the battle to prevent extra damage, but it might be better to warp in in the middle of the battle if i can.
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It's surprising to hear that. They removed it without notifying us about it?
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On February 20 2011 18:05 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 17:43 Aequos wrote:On February 20 2011 15:47 SheaR619 wrote:On February 20 2011 15:41 Fa1nT wrote:On February 20 2011 12:43 LagT_T wrote:On February 20 2011 12:07 diegonolan wrote:
This needs to be fixed warping in units should take increased damage Would you mind stating why? Because warping directly into my base should have a consequence? I agree, warping unit right in front of me should have consequences. I mean, warp in already generate unit insanely fast and in any location, it should have some penalty. Terran and zerg unit will have to be rally from all the way back in base but toss can just magically warp in crap load of unit right in front of me or alot of zealot for meat shield with no extra penalty? It doesnt really make sense to me :/ There is a penalty - warping units can take damage (and die) before doing something. Imagine I have 1 marauder beside the only pylon powering a single gate, and one beside a Zerg hatchery. If I warp in a zealot, he'll take 30-50 damage based on if you stim or not before he can attack once. If I morph 4 zerglings, the eggs will take damage, but the zerglings will all pop with 35 health at the moment they hatch. If the same marauder is beside a Terran building, any units emerging cannot take damage before they can return fire. Hmm, i think the speed of the warp in is fast enough that most protoss just warp in anyways. I mean when i drop protoss, they just warp in unit right in front of me not caring much at all that they could be focused down. Obviously the benefits way out weight the cost of that little disadvantage of being vulnerable during that short period so most will just warp in unit right there. Even protoss are willing to warp in templar right in front of you just to cast a storm risking themselves getting focus but they do it anyways. I just think that protoss should consider where they warp in units more rather then just mindless warping in units where ever they see units there with this small disadvantage.
On the other hand, the main question should always be, "is x to strong with things like they are?", in this case, is toss to strong with no dmg increase? I'm not convinced they are, though I find it ridiculous how blizzard removed this from patch(or game) without any mention.
Edit: Actually thinking about it, for TvP, if they added this in, it'd be huge lategame, since Khadian amulet HTs could be killed by single snipe while warping in. Don't know how it'd effect PvZ and PvP, but as a terran player I think that might help a lot with lategame TvP.
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Imagine I have 1 marauder beside the only pylon powering a single gate, and one beside a Zerg hatchery. If I warp in a zealot, he'll take 30-50 damage based on if you stim or not before he can attack once. If I morph 4 zerglings, the eggs will take damage, but the zerglings will all pop with 35 health at the moment they hatch. If the same marauder is beside a Terran building, any units emerging cannot take damage before they can return fire.
Yes, but zergs and terrans generally built hatcheries and raxs in a toss base.
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United States7483 Posts
You get 5 seconds to do free damage to the units, during which they cannot micro, or attack back.
Seems like a penalty to me.
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Off topic idea: If units did take significant additional damage while warping in, that would help fix the 4gate vs 4gate problem. It's much harder to warp in zealots up your opponent's ramp when they take 2x damage. And if you make the additional damage depend on distance from warpgate (which is pretty realistic), it won't break the warp-in-to-defend mechanic.
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I was actually wondering about this the other day! I was target firing units warping in, and it just didn't FEEL like I was killing them any faster, especially compared to how fast they died in Beta.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions!
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Target firing a warping in unit can still be worth it, as you can kill a stalker when it is at 20/20 health as opposed to 80/80.
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On February 20 2011 11:12 Ichabod wrote:
Since zealots have 1 armor for effectively 2/3 of their total health, a sentry’s actual damage can be adjusted on a warping in zealot to 5.333 damage per second.
This is false. Because the zealot has 1 armor, he spends more than 2/3 of his life getting his health shot at rather than his shields. It's in fact slightly less than 5.333.
He spends 100 health getting shot at with 5 damage : 20 seconds
50 shields at 6 damage : ~ 8.3 seconds
So closer to 5.29, not counting roundoff from the shields getting overkilled by one of the sentry hits.
(Sorry to nitpick, but if it were something like 3 armor, this would show up to a much bigger degree.)
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Haha it's so silly that people didn't know about this. I'm pretty sure most of the top commentators and a lot of pro's had this misconception as well. Nice job Ichabod!
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I think the fact that we didn't notice this was gone until now means it isn't really that big a deal, balance-wise. Still, good to know.
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I had no idea that my Protoss units were supposedly taking extra damage when being warped in o.O Totally missed the memo there.
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wow, I didnt know this was out of the game. This will definitely change a few things for me.
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Why is this so... complicated?
Why not just warp-in zealot, while doing so tell Stalker to attack him 3 times, and if Zealot is finished with 20 shield he didnt take extra dmg...?
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I'm glad to have this cleared up, because I remember hearing that they take extra damage but couldn't ever find anything about it. I kind of wish they did, though. It might make 4-gates a little less powerful.
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On March 02 2011 11:35 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Why is this so... complicated?
Why not just warp-in zealot, while doing so tell Stalker to attack him 3 times, and if Zealot is finished with 20 shield he didnt take extra dmg...?
I mentioned this in the edit @ the bottom
On March 02 2011 11:04 thobel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 11:12 Ichabod wrote:
Since zealots have 1 armor for effectively 2/3 of their total health, a sentry’s actual damage can be adjusted on a warping in zealot to 5.333 damage per second.
This is false. Because the zealot has 1 armor, he spends more than 2/3 of his life getting his health shot at rather than his shields. It's in fact slightly less than 5.333. He spends 100 health getting shot at with 5 damage : 20 seconds 50 shields at 6 damage : ~ 8.3 seconds So closer to 5.29, not counting roundoff from the shields getting overkilled by one of the sentry hits. (Sorry to nitpick, but if it were something like 3 armor, this would show up to a much bigger degree.)
Oh, I guess you are right about that, thankfully the margin of error was small enough to be irrelevant
Regarding this having an effect on 4gate vs 4gate; there would be as much of an advantage for the attacker as for the defender, since both would be warping in units nearby, vulnerable to the formerly-increased damage, so ultimately this wouldn't give an advantage to the attacker or defender, just potentially change the focus-firing micro a little.
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hummm i specifically tested this (in very much the same way ^^) for liquipedia during beta and it was indeed double damage back then - much like a hallucination.
although i'm not opposed to 'normal' damage itself, it is the combination with their non-existent attack priority; units that warp in do not get attacked if there's another aggressive one (in close vicinity). they're more like buildings in that state and unless the opponent focuses, they do not get attacked until they're fully warped.
so... personally i do believe this should have a downside;
either by receiving extra damage
- or -
by flagging them as a fully 'deployed' and aggressive unit so they get attacked immediately and automatically. this way protoss will not be able to spam zealots right in front of cannons without any repercussions -.-
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focus firing units that are warping in is now totally useless. One unit is attacking you for 5 seconds, the other is warping in.... pick one to attack. Duh. Thanks OP for confirming this
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Technically, since you are being warped in, shouldn't armor be nonexistant, as it is yet to be warped in? Just nitpicking i guess :3
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On March 02 2011 10:56 Whitewing wrote:
You get 5 seconds to do free damage to the units, during which they cannot micro, or attack back.
Seems like a penalty to me.
What? If a protoss need a gateway unit he just needs a proxy pylon and once that finishes and his warpgates are ready he can warp in to the front.
If you clash with 200/200 armys the protoss can instantly build out of all his gateways while zerg and terran need the production time and then walk from their facilities. How are five secounds building on the field a penalty to that????
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I really hope they make warping units take 2-3x more damage. This will help prevent 4gate spam in pvp by a lot.
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It is still extremely powerful to target fire warping units if you have the firepower to kill them off before they can fully warp in because if you target a warping stalker with 2 marauders you can simply kill it off before it gets the chance to have full hp.
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On March 02 2011 16:50 TheCookieMonster wrote:
focus firing units that are warping in is now totally useless. One unit is attacking you for 5 seconds, the other is warping in.... pick one to attack.
This isn't really true. It changes the math required for the decision though.
I believe a zealot has 100 health and 50 shield, so it should be gaining 20 health and 10 shield per second. Assuming, you could hit it in the first second, 4 marauders [10 + (10-1) x 3 = 37 damage] could kill it instantly. If you waited until it warped in completely, you'd need 17 [10x5 + (10-1) x 12 = 158 damage] total attacks by marauders to kill it instead of 4.
Of course, you're also taking damage from units that are already in the fight so you have to weigh that as well but I think you'd still be better off targetting warping in units if your micro is good enough to hit them immediately since you are gaining a HUGE damage bonus if you manage to kill a warping in unit quickly.
In any case, it's good knowledge to have that warping units aren't taking extra damage so we can make better decisions in game.
Edit: The guy above me just said the same thing while I creating this post. Damn my slow typing skills! 
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I would like that Warp-ins took additional damage since it would severly weaken cheesy warpgate all-ins, but in the otherside how should P defend drops? if they even take additional damage from the most costeffectiv combo M&M?...
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i was always wondering about this... thx for trying it out!
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On March 02 2011 19:15 freetgy wrote:
I would like that Warp-ins took additional damage since it would severly weaken cheesy warpgate all-ins, but in the otherside how should P defend drops? if they even take additional damage from the most costeffectiv combo M&M?...
How about not warping units IN HIS FACE but rather 10 yards away?
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and give him time more time to kill important stuff?
i don't even mind nexus snipes, since you are when macroed well most times alittle bit ahead.
Terran wasting 2000dmg for doing 400 minerals dmg on a nexus instead of killing like Robo/RoboBay/TC/Templar Arcives
that is damage that hurts a lot more cause it delays essential tech to survive incoming pushes.
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On March 02 2011 19:34 freetgy wrote:
and give him time more time to kill important stuff?
i don't even mind nexus snipes, since you are when macroed well most times alittle bit ahead.
Terran wasting 2000dmg for doing 400 minerals dmg on a nexus instead of killing like Robo/RoboBay/TC/Templar Arcives
that is damage that hurts a lot more cause it delays essential tech to survive incoming pushes.
So giving him 8 seconds instead of 5 by warping in out of range drops become imba? Damn.. how do other races cope, when their units take 25+ seconds until they pop out of their structure?
And by what logic do you get a refund, when your warpin is canceled due to the destruction of your pylon?
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On March 02 2011 23:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
And by what logic do you get a refund, when your warpin is canceled due to the destruction of your pylon?
I am a terran player and that makes perfect sense.
If a barrack is destroyed all the queued units will be refunded.
Also let me restate: If you have 2 marauders and target fire a warping in stalker, you can kill that stalker instanly (as it wont have full hp) opposed to trying to take out a full hp stalker.
Also if you have melee units (zergling/scv what ever) you definitely want to surround warping in units
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This should be fixed will help the pvp 4 gate warping up ramp bs aswell as helping other races. (im a protoss player)
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On March 02 2011 23:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
So giving him 8 seconds instead of 5 by warping in out of range drops become imba? Damn.. how do other races cope, when their units take 25+ seconds until they pop out of their structure?
Warping in is what balance the slow movement of Protoss Units out.
other Races have faster units (Zerg) or Units with more Range (Terran+STIM Movement Boost), thanks for not understanding the game...
And by what logic do you get a refund, when your warpin is canceled due to the destruction of your pylon?
that's the same for all Races as far as i am aware.
Would be very abusable also if it wasn't designed like that.
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say what 0.o?
So much senseless target firing! Good find
Warping in is what balance the slow movement of Protoss Units out.
Last edit: 2011-03-02 23:21:04
other Races have faster units in general, thanks for not understanding the game...
This has nothing to do with the topic, its not about moving faster form A-B. Blizzard originally stated that they want the Protoss to be sure to warp in at safe locations, because otherwise they will loose the warping units easily.
Obviously they didnt want this to be in the game anymore. Which is a little sad =/
Well there is still the very unlikely possibility that this is actually a bug. If someone would like to make a thread on Bnet forums and ask for it. It would be extremly interesting.
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On March 02 2011 23:21 ch4ppi wrote:
This has nothing to do with the topic, its not about moving faster form A-B. Blizzard originally stated that they want the Protoss to be sure to warp in at safe locations, because otherwise they will loose the warping units easily.
well i don't know that,
but there would be few reason to get warpgates, if Protoss Units were as mobile as Zerg, obviously.
Movement speed of Army plays a huge role in defending the bases.
Why can Zerg secure a 3,4 base so easily? because it is so mobile.
Why can Terran secure a 3 very easily? because PF+Repair make it easier to defend
Why can Protoss secure a 3? because he can position his army closer to the third due to the Warp-in mechanic to buy time. P doesn't have has good base defense (thats Terran) neither has he Speed (thats Zerg), warpgate is what makes up for that.
Stimmed M&M can easily outrun a P Army even if it comes to deflect the push, that is why well executed Drops are so hard to defend, and why warpins are necessary, if the P units were alittle faster, nobody would warp in units but defend with their actual army.
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On March 02 2011 23:33 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 23:21 ch4ppi wrote:
This has nothing to do with the topic, its not about moving faster form A-B. Blizzard originally stated that they want the Protoss to be sure to warp in at safe locations, because otherwise they will loose the warping units easily.
well i don't know that, but there would be few reason to get warpgates, if Protoss Units were as mobile as Zerg, obviously. Movement speed of Army plays a huge role in defending the bases. Why can Zerg secure a 3,4 base so easily? because it is so mobile. Why can Terran secure a 3 very easily? because PF+Repair make it easier to defend Why can Protoss secure a 3? because he can position his army closer to the third due to the Warp-in mechanic to buy time. P doesn't have has good base defense (thats Terran) neither has he Speed (thats Zerg), warpgate is what makes up for that. Stimmed M&M can easily outrun a P Army even if it comes to deflect the push, that is why well executed Drops are so hard to defend, and why warpins are necessary, if the P units were alittle faster, nobody would warp in units but defend with their actual army.
dude calm down 0.o you are WAY offtopic, its not a bout removing warpin or calling it imbalanced or sth. The thread has nothing to do with removing warpgate or anything, its just about a mechanic that was definately in the game for a long time and got kinda removed secretly without notice, at least it seems like that.
So calm down, stop whining.
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Did not know this and always thought that they take additional damage, at least it feels like it ingame.
But actually focusing units that are warping in is wrong anyhow cause these units will only deal damage later whereas other units are doing damage right now. So actually I don't think that it does make a huge difference, only if there are no other units in range.
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Nice experiment. I think what they mean by "extra damage" though is just that they can be killed quicker since they don't start with full hp. The earlier you target fire a warping in unit, the more "extra damage" you're doing to it, in essence.
And as for that one person who mentioned people who target spinecrawlers when they uproot, the reason that's smart is because that's the best time to get in range of them without them killing you. The same applies to warping in units as well. You can kill a warping in zealot with fewer zerglings than you'd need to kill one that can attack back.
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On March 03 2011 02:13 TedJustice wrote:
Nice experiment. I think what they mean by "extra damage" though is just that they can be killed quicker since they don't start with full hp. The earlier you target fire a warping in unit, the more "extra damage" you're doing to it, in essence.
Im nearly 100% sure that it has been 33% more dmg taken, while warping in.
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Calgary25969 Posts
Yea! I always thought they took extra damage because I had read it, but in the back of my mind I never felt like they actually did. But I was too lazy to test it.
I'm really glad you tested this. Thank you
Edit: I hope they change this. Warping in units should take extra damage, or have their warp in time delayed, or something.
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I always targetted warped in units because I also thought they took more damage.
I think the assumption of extra damage could have been attributed to if you react quickly enough you can kill them quicker because they warp in starting at 1hp or something low and as the time goes on they get more of their hp until it is 100% warped in.
You can kill units warping in quickly if you react fast enough.
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I think the warp in technology is fine as far as balance goes. This is fair in comparison to Zerg's overbundant amount of larva and Terran's ability to train infantry in pairs.
But warp gate technology should be trained indvidually from each gateway, just like that of reactor and techlab. investing 50/50 and having the ability to warp in units in 5 seconds doesnt seem right as far as balance goes. However, i grant that the balance is fair as far as production goes, just not the tech required to get there.
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On March 03 2011 02:23 Kralic wrote:
I always targetted warped in units because I also thought they took more damage.
I think the assumption of extra damage could have been attributed to if you react quickly enough you can kill them quicker because they warp in starting at 1hp or something low and as the time goes on they get more of their hp until it is 100% warped in.
You can kill units warping in quickly if you react fast enough.
This. Maybe if the warp in health was non-linear it would be better, but there's still a mechanic to kill warping in units to effectively take "extra damage". It might be worth considering a change since the match-up it affects most by far is PvP and it could make 4-gate a little weaker while still being viable, double damage would probably be too much though.
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What I actually think would be a good idea is: a single zerg egg should not take more damage then a gateway or a barracks would :D
Im not sure but killing a gateway/rax is easier than killing an egg right?
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On March 03 2011 02:27 ZergForHire wrote:
I think the warp in technology is fine as far as balance goes. This is fair in comparison to Zerg's overbundant amount of larva and Terran's ability to train infantry in pairs.
But warp gate technology should be trained indvidually from each gateway, just like that of reactor and techlab. investing 50/50 and having the ability to warp in units in 5 seconds doesnt seem right as far as balance goes. However, i grant that the balance is fair as far as production goes, just not the tech required to get there.
Is there any of u guys reading the thread in any way?
Its not about a comparision with other races mechanics...god dammits guys what up with all you...
Its about a sneaky buff, that gives a toss the opportunity to warp in really everywhere without thinking about it, because u wont need to take a risk if u proxypylon or cheese.
Chill is right.
This sneak buff just buffed cheeseplay (also 4gate), since those strategies often involve infight warp ins.
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Great find. I like everyone else here thought that they took extra damage (I guess from beta time too). Seems like changing it would affect 4gate in PvP the most making it a good solution to the problem.
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On February 20 2011 20:02 GenZai wrote:
good information. all that time i lost focus firing the warping units
i wonder when blizzard buff protoss like this? they hide the info so that we dont whine??
as if 4gate strat need to be buffed...
I look at it like less of a buff and more of a reason PvP is not a deeper matchup. Changing this could fix PvP and its totally possible to work around this in the other matchups. It would be a slight warp prism nerf, but I would honestly take that to get some variety in PvP. I dont think people realize that setting it back to the double damage intake during warp in could completely fix PvP and make strategies involving defending with a sentry feasible. It would open up the match up like crazy. You can still proxy warp in a shitload of units and you could still at your own risk warp up onto high ground.
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In all honesty, I play toss, and would rather see this slight buff gone. There should at least some disadvantage for taking damage while warping in, even if it's not double. I would like to see less 4 gating in PvP, and in general (I rarely, if ever 4 gate), and this seems like a viable way to reduce the viability of 4 gate.
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Fuck, I knew this. Every time I focused a zealot it just didn't die as fast as it used to, but never thought of it.. I knew they took additional damage after all :s
Can't believe I've played this many games and not realized it, thanks a lot for clearing that up.
Suppose it might improve my game in that I valued focusing units warping in a lot more than I should have. It's just a unit now, delayed, but a regular unit. Catz philosophy applies, no one keeps a bloody open mind. This was right there in front of everyone Oo
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I never realized that changed, it makes more sense to me to have warping in units take extra damage. You have the advantage of having those units directly at the front line, there should be the disadvantage of needing to protect the warping-in units until they are fully on the battlefield.
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I remember a caster saying that warping units were neutral units, and they take more damage because they are not affected by upgrades.
No idea if it's true.
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EPT
