This has been bugging me for quite a while and now that I saw the HuK - 4k points thread I thought I might just create a thread asking for people's opinions.
I know that it's very hard to answer this question in an unbiased way, so I will use the recent EU/NA top 200 list, the overall world rank and the TSL qualifiers to look at who's dominating who.
Looking at both those lists I have to admit that I know way more people listed in the EU list, but this just might be due to the fact that I'm playing on EU and keep track of emt, but still, I think EU got more well known players.
EU is dominating this list quite hard, but it's a known fact that the korean ladder is more skilled even though it's gettin' overruled point-wise - but does this also apply for NA?
Finally a look at the TSL qualifier results so far:
It's been 3 EU qualifiers and 2 NA qualifiers so far, so you would expect 3 europeans and 2 americans to make it through, but it has been 4 europeans and only 1 american.
Use this data to base your opinion on. So here goes the poll:
Poll: EU or NA, which ladder is harder (got mroe skilled people)
EU (1309)
86%
NA (219)
14%
1528 total votes
Your vote: EU or NA, which ladder is harder (got mroe skilled people)
When you talk about TSL qualifiers how do you decide where people are from? Do HuK and IdrA count as Americans even though their situation makes them de facto Koreans?
Also, out of 16 top players in TSL qualifiers, 12 play on EU, while only 4 play on US. I'd say there's absolutely no doubt that EU is the more difficult ladder and has the more skilled players in general, avoiding some exceptions.
Playing about a 100 games on both servers I didn't really feel any skill difference but I did get an impression that there is a little more cheese on US.
I guess it practically doesn't affect the lower tiers at all. Where it starts to make a difference should be the top 5000 players or whatever, since eSports (and PC gaming in general, last I heard USA was basically the country #2 [behind Japan] in terms of gaming consoles per household) has been bigger in the EU than in NA (especially in the RTS department with WC3 before SC2) for a long while now, which results in more players trying to get really good at the game, many of which are already in "electronic social circles" of players who practice with them or share information etc.
Who cares which one is harder? If a player is skilled he will excel regardless of his location. Things like this are stupid and pointless, I've destroyed europeans, koreans, and americans....and Ive been destroyed by europeans, koreans, and americans.....So really nationality has nothing to do with anything other then an epeen parade.
On February 10 2011 02:47 barth wrote: Playing about a 100 games on both servers I didn't really feel any skill difference but I did get an impression that there is a little more cheese on US.
you're being matched up against people of equal mmr so it should feel the same..
On February 10 2011 02:49 Trowabarton756 wrote: Who cares which one is harder? If a player is skilled he will excel regardless of his location. Things like this are stupid and pointless, I've destroyed europeans, koreans, and americans....and Ive been destroyed by europeans, koreans, and americans.....So really nationality has nothing to do with anything other then an epeen parade.
That is the truth ladies, Look at the awesome players, Huk Jinro Kiwikaki WhiteRa Kas, that is what is more important. Stop bashing other continents just because KR doesn't post here.
How come there is always the Europe vs North America threads? Who cares. The majority of us can't tell the difference between the skill and challenge of other players we are matched up with anyway. Perhaps if you are the top 10% of masters league you will.
Yes I am aware that people post that go "LOL I just switched to the ____ server and it is so easy because my MMR has been reset and I am stomping people left right and center that are leagues below my old server mmr!"
I see these as a pointless thread that tend to go the way of a flame war everytime I see one.
agree to Kralic, every server is equally strong in my oppinion. maybe only top 200-500 differ, but only because NA are playing more on consoles (hello halo^^) and not that much starcraft 2
Just because EU has more well known players doesn't necessarily mean it's a harder ladder. I think a big EU vs US should be made Though from the interviews I've read most pros say KR is hardest followed by EU and US.
On February 10 2011 03:09 Andr3 wrote: #29 CombatEX Is that the real combatEX? oO
Just because EU has more well known players doesn't necessarily mean it's a harder ladder. I think a big EU vs US should be made Though from the interviews I've read most pros say KR is hardest followed by EU and US.
If u talkin bout a EU vs NA showmatch. They already had one. EU won 8-3.
I think there's a point in threads like these, cause it's all about competition. When you look at EU, there's about 40 countries going at it and tryna to be the best european country - the competition is huge. If there's a tourney you always want your country to beat the other european country (look at footbal as an example). In economy being competitive means being more efficient, if you translate it to sc2 it means being better. The competition is NA is very small, you got USA who is overruling canada for the most part and in mexico electricity has yet to be discovered (just kidding ), so if you win a tourney in NA it's a win for USA anyways, but if you win a tourney in EU you have to go up against other countries and everyone wants to make his country proud and gain some fame for it.
And since sc2 is a competitive strategy game I think provoking some competition in between those realms only can be good. Competition raises efficiency (skill), if you dont get more efficient in order to be competitve you will fall behind. If you don't have to be competitve (like in NA), you won't put as much effort in it as you would otherwise.
an NA vs EU matchup has already been made with EU winning 7-3 or so. I think that right now there may be a noticeable gap between the servers in the top 100 or so but I guess once the MLG starts again NA will catch up a bit (btw where is Painuser atm?).
I don't think its far apart enough to be of importance. If you're at the top of either ladder you're good enough to be at the top of the other, on the other hand this is probably not the cast if you include the Korean ladder in the mix.
Why do we have to turn this into ePenis measuring contest ? I'm from EU, but most of my favorite players have origins in the NA server - KiwiKaki, Huk, InControl, IdrA, Day[9], Arthritis, Tasteless, djWheat, miniWheat, qxc, Machine and CatZ, just to name a few. EU players might be better, in some cases, but the names that stand out for me from the EU region are ... TLO, Jinro, Haypro, Ret, DeMuslim, Mondragon and Grubby. And I'm really struggling to figure out more names that I really enjoy watching. Yes, of course, there are Nama, Mana, Mama and Sjow, but ... they're not exactly that sort of attention grabbers as most of the NA players.
So which server is better ? Who cares really ? Both are behind the Korean.
I don't see the point of this, if you play on either server long enough your going to get matched up with people around your skill level. So it really doesn't matter.
It seems that most european top players ladder, where as most NA top players don't. Thus the EU ladder seems to be "harder," although for the majority of players (99.99%) it shouldn't make a difference.
On February 10 2011 03:33 Stratus wrote: Eu is 40 countries and NA is 1 you figure it out.
EU as in the European Union, compared to the continent of North America, which isn't even a country? And another one that I always think is fun when these sort of things come up. The European Union is actually made up out of member states *poof* blew your mind.
I really dislike the whole EU vs US thing. I've seen it spiral out of control really hard in a different community and I think it should be dealt with just like aimless imbalance callings. We should just appreciate both equally and not try to make any distinction based on "skill". Which is a misused term anyway.
On February 10 2011 03:33 Stratus wrote: Eu is 40 countries and NA is 1 you figure it out.
if i were canadian i would hate US so much
We don't hate them. We laugh at their ignorance :p
On topic: I think Europe is the stronger server based on what I've seen and heard. Plus there are some terrible players on the NA top 200 list (were, at least).
On February 10 2011 03:45 Influ wrote: if i were canadian i would hate US so much
Yea that post annoyed me. Allot.
It seems on the NA ladder there's allot of really, really good players who are on par with the best in the world. Although, there seems to be a huge skill gap in masters league. Many players I come across don't know the basics, and have just mastered a single build. It's so easy to abuse small things when playing them, IE lack of control, and really can show how being in NA master league can just be because of a lucky streak.
i think europe has always had a greater number of high skilled players in every single esports game, not just sc2. pretty much all the good international 1.6 teams, quake, wc3, bw, pk, etc players have been from europe. however, i think in terms of peak skill between europe and the US+canada they're probably about the same, except for 1.6.
On February 10 2011 02:44 mordk wrote: Also, out of 16 top players in TSL qualifiers, 12 play on EU, while only 4 play on US. I'd say there's absolutely no doubt that EU is the more difficult ladder and has the more skilled players in general, avoiding some exceptions.
On February 10 2011 03:33 Stratus wrote: Eu is 40 countries and NA is 1 you figure it out.
Not only wrong, but also non-sensical. What difference makes the fact that people in EU are more spread-out in terms of country and language as in NA? It's about the amount of citizens of said regions, not how many countries they're divided in.
Also useless thread, you know this is going to come down to "NA is better", "No, EU is better".
The only real difference I've felt on the two servers are that US terrans play beta style TvP (marauder openings) and it loses them games. EU terrans however play more of a 1-1-1 style or 2 rax 2 fac most of the time which works better atm.
the only thing different in my experience is the meta game, but in terms of skill there are several examples of excellent protoss, terran and zerg players on every server
I'd be intressted in how many tournaments all in all have been played on EU and NA cause I think this can make a diffence. Apart from the 5 "star pro-gamer" each server has, I think tournaments like Go4SC2 (with 512- to 1024 players) bring a broad amout of gamers in the competetive level. So far (havent had the time yet to look it up) I'd say there were more of these tournaments in EU.
lol... there are good players everywhere. More importantly, no matter where you are on the ladder, your playing with people of skill level similar to you. So don't try to justify losing games with a "but people here are better" mentality.
This kind of discussion just feeds all the sore losers... play your game where you are and get better. As long as there are players better than you on the ladder, you still have work to do. Kill this thread already people are just dissing each other now
lol... there are good players everywhere. More importantly, no matter where you are on the ladder, your playing with people of skill level similar to you. So don't try to justify losing games with a "but people here are better" mentality.
I disagree. At the tip toppity top you don't always get matched with people of your skill, due to lack of people at your level. This leads to the 3:1 w:l ratios that aren't uncommon.
lol... there are good players everywhere. More importantly, no matter where you are on the ladder, your playing with people of skill level similar to you. So don't try to justify losing games with a "but people here are better" mentality.
I disagree. At the tip toppity top you don't always get matched with people of your skill, due to lack of people at your level. This leads to the 3:1 w:l ratios that aren't uncommon.
How is this not uncommon? There are not many people high on the ladder with higher than 65% win loss.
Hmm here's a little idea I had... Lets assume the top 200 from NA and EU are close in skill. If the overall server playerbase is good enough, the W:L ratios of T200 will be lower, due to higher amounts of precise matchmaking.
On February 10 2011 03:19 speedphlux wrote: Why do we have to turn this into ePenis measuring contest ? I'm from EU, but most of my favorite players have origins in the NA server - KiwiKaki, Huk, InControl, IdrA, Day[9], Arthritis, Tasteless, djWheat, miniWheat, qxc, Machine and CatZ, just to name a few. EU players might be better, in some cases, but the names that stand out for me from the EU region are ... TLO, Jinro, Haypro, Ret, DeMuslim, Mondragon and Grubby. And I'm really struggling to figure out more names that I really enjoy watching. Yes, of course, there are Nama, Mana, Mama and Sjow, but ... they're not exactly that sort of attention grabbers as most of the NA players.
So which server is better ? Who cares really ? Both are behind the Korean.
lol... there are good players everywhere. More importantly, no matter where you are on the ladder, your playing with people of skill level similar to you. So don't try to justify losing games with a "but people here are better" mentality.
I disagree. At the tip toppity top you don't always get matched with people of your skill, due to lack of people at your level. This leads to the 3:1 w:l ratios that aren't uncommon.
Huk has a 67% ratio as the #1 on EU ladder so it is uncommon.
lol... there are good players everywhere. More importantly, no matter where you are on the ladder, your playing with people of skill level similar to you. So don't try to justify losing games with a "but people here are better" mentality.
I disagree. At the tip toppity top you don't always get matched with people of your skill, due to lack of people at your level. This leads to the 3:1 w:l ratios that aren't uncommon.
Huk has a 67% ratio as the #1 on EU ladder so it is uncommon.
On February 10 2011 03:53 rauk wrote: i think europe has always had a greater number of high skilled players in every single esports game, not just sc2. pretty much all the good international 1.6 teams, quake, wc3, bw, pk, etc players have been from europe. however, i think in terms of peak skill between europe and the US+canada they're probably about the same, except for 1.6.
none are more "skilled" they're just more dedicated, Koreans are much more dedicated to the game than europeans or americans, it's not like one location makes people naturally smarter or w/e lol
it's like in poker we said americans were smarter and asians stupid cuz americans>europeans>asians in terms of results
On February 10 2011 03:53 rauk wrote: i think europe has always had a greater number of high skilled players in every single esports game, not just sc2. pretty much all the good international 1.6 teams, quake, wc3, bw, pk, etc players have been from europe. however, i think in terms of peak skill between europe and the US+canada they're probably about the same, except for 1.6.
quake? bw? come on now :p
pretty much rapha > all and idra/nony in bw.
When the bw scene was still somewhat active with nation wars going, several foreigner nations were far ahead of usa.
Sweden, canada, poland, germany, spain, france etc. :p And china obviously.
I don't think either ladder is taken too seriously, but NA is undoubtedly much more of a joke. If I can get #2 on NA you know its pretty f***ing easy, would be much harder on EU would be happy with top 15 :\
I only have an EU account, but I feel that quite a lot of people I face are bad, especially terran. I rarely go against 2rax, but most of my ZvT is 2-basing terran at the 18 minute mark, by which point I'm at 5 bases and teching to hive.
On February 10 2011 03:33 Stratus wrote: Eu is 40 countries and NA is 1 you figure it out.
Yet there is 30% more people playing on the NA ladder than the EU ladder.
It's obvious that the EU ladder has more active notable (tournament winning) players. Even the most accomplished north american players have high ranking EU accounts. E.g. select, huk, kiwikaki, qxc.
On February 10 2011 04:47 ThE_OsToJiY wrote: I don't think either ladder is taken too seriously, but NA is undoubtedly much more of a joke. If I can get #2 on NA you know its pretty f***ing easy, would be much harder on EU would be happy with top 15 :\
I would disagree, but I made the NA T200 by doing one thing, it actually saddens me a bit.
On February 10 2011 03:33 Stratus wrote: Eu is 40 countries and NA is 1 you figure it out.
if i were canadian i would hate US so much
On topic: I think Europe is the stronger server based on what I've seen and heard. Plus there are some terrible players on the NA top 200 list (were, at least).
I agree with Infinity - at one point even he was in the top 200 .
Osto you just pro. Korean server has 1 country and they're number 1 so...population doesnt matter. Doesn't matter if US or EU is better if they're not number 1.
EU has always been better than NA in terms of competitive Blizzard games for reasons that can't really be proven realistically. It's probably due to numerous well ran tournaments that have been going on there in the RTS community since the BW and WC3 era. The BW and competitive WC3 scene in the US ebbed sooner compared to EU and other Asian countries like Korea and China for example.
On February 10 2011 04:40 Fayth wrote: none are more "skilled" they're just more dedicated, Koreans are much more dedicated to the game than europeans or americans, it's not like one location makes people naturally smarter or w/e lol
it's like in poker we said americans were smarter and asians stupid cuz americans>europeans>asians in terms of results
what does that even mean? obviously skill is conditioned through training and dedication.
and i dont think anybody is arguing what is the genetically superior race either.
On February 10 2011 02:47 heishe wrote: I guess it practically doesn't affect the lower tiers at all. Where it starts to make a difference should be the top 5000 players or whatever, since eSports (and PC gaming in general, last I heard USA was basically the country #2 [behind Japan] in terms of gaming consoles per household) has been bigger in the EU than in NA (especially in the RTS department with WC3 before SC2) for a long while now, which results in more players trying to get really good at the game, many of which are already in "electronic social circles" of players who practice with them or share information etc.
pretty much gotta agree with you on this 1. in the USA RTS genre is just not very popular, ontop of PC gaming being the little brother to console gaming it only makes it worse.
On February 10 2011 04:40 Fayth wrote: none are more "skilled" they're just more dedicated, Koreans are much more dedicated to the game than europeans or americans, it's not like one location makes people naturally smarter or w/e lol
it's like in poker we said americans were smarter and asians stupid cuz americans>europeans>asians in terms of results
what does that even mean? obviously skill is conditioned through training and dedication.
and i dont think anybody is arguing what is the genetically superior race either.
by skilled he means natural skill, not earned skill. i guess a better way to put it would be talent
On February 10 2011 04:40 Fayth wrote: none are more "skilled" they're just more dedicated, Koreans are much more dedicated to the game than europeans or americans, it's not like one location makes people naturally smarter or w/e lol
it's like in poker we said americans were smarter and asians stupid cuz americans>europeans>asians in terms of results
what does that even mean? obviously skill is conditioned through training and dedication.
and i dont think anybody is arguing what is the genetically superior race either.
ok then maybe I didn't express myself correctly I meant none are more naturally talented
On February 10 2011 04:54 bubblegumbo wrote: EU has always been better than NA in terms of competitive Blizzard games for reasons that can't really be proven realistically. It's probably due to numerous well ran tournaments that have been going on there in the RTS community since the BW and WC3 era. The BW and competitive WC3 scene in the US ebbed sooner compared to EU and other Asian countries like Korea and China for example.
EU points have to be inflated due to a vastly different skill curve when compared to US and KR servers. EU may be better than NA, but when HuK can come over from Korea, play for four days and become #1 on the EU server with 250 more points than he has on his KR account, it must be clear to everybody that points don't translate between servers and are not an indicator of skill.
Definately EU. Seriously, if they would hold a showmatch between sweden and usa, sweden would probably win. Also just watch the TSL qualifiers. On the first NA TSL qualifier it was goody(ger) vs nani(swe) in the finals. And there are at least 20 players as strong as goody or nani in eu. I can't imagine that the finals of an eu TSL qualifier would have one NA, let even stand two.
I guess people care about the question of "would I perhaps be diamond, and not plat, in NA?" or "Would I still manage to be in diamond in NA? does saying you're in masters division mean the same across regions?"... I've wondered that myself. However, I guess it's quite hard to test, as you cant really see your hidden rank, and the divisons flow together... And we all know points are quite trivial when it comes to skill.
So, interesting question that I believe cant be answered unless the difference is huge, as in gold = plat, plat = diamond etc... Which I dont believe
...well, USA was never a respected nation in brood war though relatively many people who went to korea were actually from USA (Rekrul, Assem, Idra, Nony). But I think that most people who've been long time followers of the brood war seen would agree that the countries you watched out for when the brood war foreign scene was the most active were: Canada, Sweden, Poland and Germany in no specific order.
To be honest, it seems like a recurring trend that Europe > USA in esports. Just googling counter strike rankings brings up http://www.gotfrag.com/cs/rankings/ . Europe was certainly stronger than USA in WarCraft 3.
It's no surprise that Europe has more top players in StarCraft 2 as well. It's been pretty brutally obvious that NA players have had a hard time competing in the teamliquid open qualifiers to the point that the casters are making a big deal of "all significant european players attending assembly".
The question is, what do you want to say with all that? Or rather, why could this be? Let's just go with the most obvious answer: european kids probably spend more time playing their games. It should be that simple. Not very interesting.
Yeah i feel this is just causing some stupid nationalism or in this case some kind of "continentalism". The only point that may be intresting is on which server the pro player in the west have better training conditions na or eu. But this only effects round about 100 people. Beneath that certain level it's just even, or just not important.
This is a useless thread? I don't see what this is going to accomplish its literally going ot be every one NA saying NOOO NA IS HARDER vs WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT EU IS WAY HARDER.
On February 10 2011 05:18 vdek wrote: I think you can compare certain players who ladder on both servers
SeleCT EU: 3861 68.73% NA: 3893 72.76%
LiquidHuK EU: 4001 67.6% KR: 3746 54.81%
FXOmOoNan EU: 3681 58.04% NA: 3802 59.93%
Who else plays on both servers?
These numbers are quite useless. The accounts have differents amounts of games at first. Then the na acc by select is as example by far younger. So he looses less games through a learning process at the start and had quite a few "freewins" in the eu. And you need too consider when he plays... for example if select plays only at night for europeans most likely the top players are sleeping.^^
Europe seems to have the largest number of active players right now, other than that, only players that have played on both can say if it's harder to be on any league on here or there.
On February 10 2011 03:19 speedphlux wrote: Why do we have to turn this into ePenis measuring contest ? I'm from EU, but most of my favorite players have origins in the NA server - KiwiKaki, Huk, InControl, IdrA, Day[9], Arthritis, Tasteless, djWheat, miniWheat, qxc, Machine and CatZ, just to name a few. EU players might be better, in some cases, but the names that stand out for me from the EU region are ... TLO, Jinro, Haypro, Ret, DeMuslim, Mondragon and Grubby. And I'm really struggling to figure out more names that I really enjoy watching. Yes, of course, there are Nama, Mana, Mama and Sjow, but ... they're not exactly that sort of attention grabbers as most of the NA players.
So which server is better ? Who cares really ? Both are behind the Korean.
On February 10 2011 03:53 rauk wrote: i think europe has always had a greater number of high skilled players in every single esports game, not just sc2. pretty much all the good international 1.6 teams, quake, wc3, bw, pk, etc players have been from europe. however, i think in terms of peak skill between europe and the US+canada they're probably about the same, except for 1.6.
quake? bw? come on now :p
pretty much rapha > all and idra/nony in bw.
idra/nony only in the last 2 years. sure we've had assem, and grr if you count canada, but europe has elky/nazgul/sven/androide/draco/mondragon//whitera/ret/kolll/bratok/strelok...... ret was better than idra or nony anyways.
plus i'd put my money on cypher/avek/cooller any time over rapha. also it's not just quakelive, look at q4/q3/q2/qw where all the notable players were european, except thresh at the very very very start and even then deathrow got smashed by clan9, and maybe zero4 + czm.
On February 10 2011 05:02 Vehemus wrote: EU points have to be inflated due to a vastly different skill curve when compared to US and KR servers. EU may be better than NA, but when HuK can come over from Korea, play for four days and become #1 on the EU server with 250 more points than he has on his KR account, it must be clear to everybody that points don't translate between servers and are not an indicator of skill.
No.. that actually just shows how retarded bonus pool system is. Meaty (Naniwa?) got first to 4k diamond on US with like 130 wins or something?
Naniwa was 3k on US as Boyardee, 4k on EU with MeatyOwlLegs or w/e.
all this thread is gonna do is get EU and NA people to bash eachother saying their server is better
however i think at the top level the top americans (huk idra included) can play fine vs the top europeans, i just think that there is a larger amount of top euros atm... making the EU server more difficult
probably eu, due to the aforementioned na console dominance. even if blizz let us see mmr, we still wont know for sure until eu can play na and we see the rankings.
gathering troll threads are always cool to read hehe. voted eu btw because it will be prolly a while that way, though i hate it being that way. european only servers/communitys are filled with so much more hate when it comes to competition its not even funny anymore.
Theoretically speaking... the only way to gain points is by beating more skilled opponents or winning more games than you lose against equally skilled opponents or lesser skilled opponents and since the EU ladder has the highest peaking players, this basically means the people at the top of the EU ladder absolutely demolish the people below them. Whereas the people at the top of the US ladder don't absolutely demolish the people below them as much or they would have a giant gap in points as well.
I was about to start my own thread on this topic but got beat to it. I thought the EU server was better, but never got it stated by so many up until now. k, thx
i play on both ladders, if EU is harder, its not by much. Dunno why everyone from europe is so obsessed with the idea that they MUST be second best lol
On February 10 2011 06:13 bLuR wrote: i play on both ladders, if EU is harder, its not by much. Dunno why everyone from europe is so obsessed with the idea that they MUST be second best lol
To be fair, this whole discussion was started because an American made the opposite claim in the HuK thread.
I am European, so I'm obviously biased, but it just seems there are more top level players on EU, if not exactly better top level players. And it's impossible to say if it would make any different for me personally, since I'm so far off the top. Odds are I'd be pretty much exactly where I am on the EU server.
What I got from this thread is basically that, per capita, is that the United States of America has terrible players and everywhere else (Including Canada) is fine.
On February 10 2011 05:43 RyanRushia wrote: all this thread is gonna do is get EU and NA people to bash eachother saying their server is better
however i think at the top level the top americans (huk idra included) can play fine vs the top europeans, i just think that there is a larger amount of top euros atm... making the EU server more difficult
Well everyone seems to pretty much agree that EU > NA
And you cant really count IdrA and HuK as players pertaining to the NA ladder, both play KR ladder full time and have no intentions to return to NA any time soon.
I don't think there is a big difference between the 2 servers, except at the highest level where it is quite ridiculous (seeing as how almost no top NA player ladders)
If you look at sc2ranks you will see that europe is dominatingpoint wise. This could imply several tings. 1. Europe has more high level players 2. There are a few very good players in europe winning a lot of matches just because the level of the plaers just below them are way worse. 3. surely there are other things you can read out of this :p What I am trying to say: you cant tell much with these stats.
I have to say that atm the European players are doing very well!
p.s. cant wait till I wake up tomorrow morning (23.39 atm) and all the NA players have voted on NA
EU pros play a lot on ladder, whilst NA pro's play a lot of custom games.
I would say that its harder to compare the two, even at events, there is jet lag and what not. If we take a look at MLG, the EU players that went didn't do that well. If we take a look at IEM, the NA players didn't do that well.
So while ladder vs ladder, NA lacks. I think its really hard to make a call on the pro scene.
On February 10 2011 05:02 Vehemus wrote: EU points have to be inflated due to a vastly different skill curve when compared to US and KR servers. EU may be better than NA, but when HuK can come over from Korea, play for four days and become #1 on the EU server with 250 more points than he has on his KR account, it must be clear to everybody that points don't translate between servers and are not an indicator of skill.
No.. that actually just shows how retarded bonus pool system is. Meaty (Naniwa?) got first to 4k diamond on US with like 130 wins or something?
Bonus pool means nothing. Just cut off bonus pool, and he's the first to whatever it was at that point. It literally means nothing except relativity. He's 1.5k compared to other people who are 1.2k vs 4k and 3.7k with a bonus pool of 2.5k. It does mean it's possible to reach a point easier then before, but that makes that point mean less as bonus pool increases.
I think you should let the top-players who play on both servers decide on this. It's kind of stupid to try to argue when you don't have experienced it yourself. From what I heard, almost all pro players playing on both says that they're almost equally hard.
Imo let the Assembly/MLG/DH/ESL events show us which continent got better players.
On February 10 2011 02:40 Frack wrote: a ridiculous question that affects no-one
Ya I agree with this. I don't see why so many people take pride in their region being a better or worse region for SC2. It's all about the individual players, not the countries/continents they are from.
I'd say you won't feel a diffference unless you are a pro since you simply get matched against equally skilled players. Also the very best players from both servers don't generally have a different skill-level. BUT EU has no doubt many more players on the top level. So if you would make tournaments with 50% of the best EU players and 50% of the best NA players, it'd be more likely that a EU player wins.
I also agree that Canada>US , and that EU is better in every computer game that I can think of. I believe that NA is better in console games and they play a lot more console tho?!
Unless you are one of the few players in the top 1%, one server being better than the other doesn't mean shit.
The skill level of the Low masters and Diamond below, is roughly the same on both servers, odds are you're going to need to defend some form of all-in.
Not to mention there are alot of EU and NA players that play on both servers, and they are usually in the top on those servers.
Ever consider the fact that the cultures of the countries affect the distribution of the better players?
Here's a psychological answer. People play games for different reasons. Americans, imo, are more laid back and don't expect to complete tasks at the highest level unless they have a motive to. There are less competitive players in the pool, which results in a seemingly lower level of competition in the region overall. However, that doesn't mean Americans are inferior, there are a number of excellent American players, even if there are not as many as, say, in Korea.
In contrast, Korean or Asian cultures in general, are significantly different. When an individual attempts something, they are expected to excel in it or be shameful for their failures. This refusal to be less than competent is a motive that often results in the individual's success, hence, why Koreans are so good at the game.
Believing otherwise, for example, that one region just sucks more than the other (most of the comments in here are saying exactly so; "region A" > "region B"), simply shows your ignorance to the cultures of different people in the world and how they view life.
In short, the regions don't matter, you may play against harder opponents in plat in KR who would be Diamond in NA, but if you still lose in the NA server, losing is losing. The only valid argument one can make is that the player competency in ranking is different across all regions.
On February 10 2011 08:53 Eeeegor wrote: From what I've heard I think EU is better, but NA has better protosses?
Dude,I don't want to flame but I can name many awesome EU tosses: WhiteRa,Nani,Mana,Hasu,Adelscott, NA:Kiwikaki, Incontrol and.. help me. Huk is Korean for me tho ;P
On February 10 2011 08:53 Eeeegor wrote: From what I've heard I think EU is better, but NA has better protosses?
Dude,I don't want to flame but I can name many awesome EU tosses: WhiteRa,Nani,Mana,Hasu,Adelscott, NA:Kiwikaki, Incontrol and.. help me. Huk is Korean for me tho ;P
On February 10 2011 08:53 Eeeegor wrote: From what I've heard I think EU is better, but NA has better protosses?
Dude,I don't want to flame but I can name many awesome EU tosses: WhiteRa,Nani,Mana,Hasu,Adelscott, NA:Kiwikaki, Incontrol and.. help me. Huk is Korean for me tho ;P
and which country actually developed the game......These discussions are not positive for the community and I'm surprised this thread didn't get closed. You can skew the stats whichever way you like but EU = NA neither is any "better". And really who cares, just because you think that there are more talented players on your server doesnt make you any better.
On February 10 2011 14:28 byce wrote: I am proud of my fellow Americans for not voting in this poll!
Why? Sure it's kind of a silly thing but if you feel strongly one way or another you should vote and post about it. I'm an American that's mid-Master's on both servers and feel EU is little bit tougher, so I voted for EU. It's not like it's worlds harder and the top level players on both servers are pretty much the same skill level, but I'd say for my level of play it was a little harder to get that high on EU.
We typically tell it like it is and its universally known that most of us NA top200 would like a EU account to practice on. Save for Select the ladder isn't really competitive.
I love the political correctness of people who say 'it doesn't matter', or 'this affects no one' or even 'the skill levels are the same'.
Of course it's not the same, it's like that in any sport, mentality, culture, it's all going to affect the level of play. Now, I won't be bold enough to say in which direction it goes, but if it was the same that would be an uncanny coincidence. It's like this in every sport, the level of football in Europe or South America is waaaaay higher than in North America or Africa for instance, while conversely the level of ice skating, ice hockey or handovoid is considered a lot higher in North America.
And why does it matter? Well, people often say 'I'm a 3200 masters league' to qualify a post with, if you really think that matters, you might as well put the server with there.
And well, this might be nationalism, but when I see people like HD stream their ladder I'm like 'This isn't EU masters league level at all.', but oh well.
I have to say, a lot of people might see this as a moot question, but it does actually affect people, example?
Well, I am a bronze league player (currently, I will be out of Bronze when I actually have some decent time to play) and a decent number of NA replays I have seen from Bronze make even my eyes pop out with rage and disbelief, I wish I was playing against some of those people!
My own experience on the EU Bronze however, has been that they are significantly better than the NA bronze games I have watched.
This doesn't mean a whole lot coming from one single person who has played <100 games and watched maybe 30 NA replays. But with some more peoples opinions and discussion something like this can be useful to know.
i voted for Europe even though I am from North America. I believe Canadians are better than Americans who are really holding back in terms of skill. Europe has fantastic players. EU > NA
On February 10 2011 08:53 Eeeegor wrote: From what I've heard I think EU is better, but NA has better protosses?
Dude,I don't want to flame but I can name many awesome EU tosses: WhiteRa,Nani,Mana,Hasu,Adelscott, NA:Kiwikaki, Incontrol and.. help me. Huk is Korean for me tho ;P
On February 10 2011 02:34 decaf wrote: but it's a known fact that the korean ladder is more skilled]
Is it? That's news to me. I mean, it is a known fact that people blindly assume Koreans are better at the game, but I didn't know it was a fact that they are.
I just have started laddering with my EU account, and so far as I rank up the differences I see are mainly with how EU protoss play.
Like for almost 4-5 straight TvPs I played as I was ranking up through placement -> masters, the protoss would 3gate voidray every single time and on NA no one does this build much anymore. Or they would think they're white-ra and build warp prisms, and on NA there's like only 2 players that ever build warp prisms, which is sort of hilarious when you think about it.
The Terrans i've come across so far all play marine/tank/medivac tvt, only full mech T i've played was goody on eu/na server. Though, i'm sure that's going to be more common very soon.
The Zergs so far...can't defend bunker rushes too good lol. My account is still low ranked, so obviously the better zergs can defend it perfectly fine tho i'd think.
I do think NA protosses try and force a more economic game on you, whereas EU protosses try and do some sneaky attack or all-inish push to damage you more.
imo there's no "skill difference," just a different style of play / philosophy / mentality for each server's players.
Until you get to the point that you are being matched up against the very best players on the ladder I would have to say that there is absolutely no difference in skill at all. Perhaps in playstyle, but not in skill. Certain areas (read:Korea server) might have a much higher percentage of the tippity-top players, making pro players think that area is harder, but if you are anything but very high masters there is no way it makes a difference.
On February 10 2011 02:34 decaf wrote: but it's a known fact that the korean ladder is more skilled]
Is it? That's news to me. I mean, it is a known fact that people blindly assume Koreans are better at the game, but I didn't know it was a fact that they are.
Pretty much every pro that played on all servers confirms this. I never played on other ladders than EU, but in all interviews i saw pros talking about the skill levels of the different servers they always say the Korean server is the hardest to play on. Idra, Artosis, Huk are examples of pros who stated this, i think you will have a hard time finding a top player saying otherwise.
On February 12 2011 06:41 avilo wrote: I just have started laddering with my EU account, and so far as I rank up the differences I see are mainly with how EU protoss play.
Like for almost 4-5 straight TvPs I played as I was ranking up through placement -> masters, the protoss would 3gate voidray every single time and on NA no one does this build much anymore. Or they would think they're white-ra and build warp prisms, and on NA there's like only 2 players that ever build warp prisms, which is sort of hilarious when you think about it.
The Terrans i've come across so far all play marine/tank/medivac tvt, only full mech T i've played was goody on eu/na server. Though, i'm sure that's going to be more common very soon.
The Zergs so far...can't defend bunker rushes too good lol. My account is still low ranked, so obviously the better zergs can defend it perfectly fine tho i'd think.
I do think NA protosses try and force a more economic game on you, whereas EU protosses try and do some sneaky attack or all-inish push to damage you more.
imo there's no "skill difference," just a different style of play / philosophy / mentality for each server's players.
Well EU is known for their weaker Z players, Just know some players are coming up. Like Morrow, DarkForce and Dimaga
On February 10 2011 02:34 decaf wrote: but it's a known fact that the korean ladder is more skilled]
Is it? That's news to me. I mean, it is a known fact that people blindly assume Koreans are better at the game, but I didn't know it was a fact that they are.
Pretty much every pro that played on all servers confirms this. I never played on other ladders than EU, but in all interviews i saw pros talking about the skill levels of the different servers they always say the Korean server is the hardest to play on. Idra, Artosis, Huk are examples of pros who stated this, i think you will have a hard time finding a top player saying otherwise.
Oh, I'm sure the American pros probably would, since Americans seem the most likely to want to be Korean, for whatever reason.
I don't buy it. As someone else mentioned, perhaps there is, at the top, a higher percentage of pros that play compared to the other servers, but that doesn't translate to the ladder being harder. Remember, those pros aren't playing in bronze league.
Also, I think part of it is perception-- if you expect something to be harder, you are going to make it harder in your mind.
Lol, I play on both ladders players at the 2700 masters level on both being 2600 masters on NA and like 900 masters on EU and I dont find any significant skill difference if there is it must be at the top levels because it sure isnt mid mastersleague
These threads are prevalent because the rest of the world has such an inferiority complex being behind Korea that we must know who is "second" in skill. To quote a horrible, yet hilarious movie (Talladega Nights): "If you're not first, you're last."
Huk, Idra, Kiwikaki, and qxc (select too for a good while) dont even play in NA anymore. There just isnt a good enough tournament scene to force them to stay, besides a few trips back for MLG and the likes.
On February 12 2011 06:41 avilo wrote: I just have started laddering with my EU account, and so far as I rank up the differences I see are mainly with how EU protoss play.
Like for almost 4-5 straight TvPs I played as I was ranking up through placement -> masters, the protoss would 3gate voidray every single time and on NA no one does this build much anymore. Or they would think they're white-ra and build warp prisms, and on NA there's like only 2 players that ever build warp prisms, which is sort of hilarious when you think about it.
The Terrans i've come across so far all play marine/tank/medivac tvt, only full mech T i've played was goody on eu/na server. Though, i'm sure that's going to be more common very soon.
The Zergs so far...can't defend bunker rushes too good lol. My account is still low ranked, so obviously the better zergs can defend it perfectly fine tho i'd think.
I do think NA protosses try and force a more economic game on you, whereas EU protosses try and do some sneaky attack or all-inish push to damage you more.
imo there's no "skill difference," just a different style of play / philosophy / mentality for each server's players.
well no offense but you're a 54% winrate player on NA and your experience directly contradicts HuK who plays with the likes of mvp, nestea, mc, mkp i.e. the best players in the world **every day** and he as a native american says that EU > NA.
On February 10 2011 04:11 Striding Strider wrote: A better question would be:
Why does Sweden produce such good players?
Sweden has a long "tradition" of PC use. I think the state gave ppl tax cuts if they bought PCs during the 90s, and we allways had computer science in school.
Just my theory, cant say i have any special insight into other countries computer habits really, altho i have seen alot of americans bash the internet :D
On February 10 2011 04:11 Striding Strider wrote: A better question would be:
Why does Sweden produce such good players?
Sweden has a long "tradition" of PC use. I think the state gave ppl tax cuts if they bought PCs during the 90s, and we allways had computer science in school.
Just my theory, cant say i have any special insight into other countries computer habits really, altho i have seen alot of americans bash the internet :D
There's nothing to do but drinking and gaming 8 months a year, and drinking is fucking expensive here so naturally a lot of people play games. ;>
Seriously though you are probably quite right, it's also quite socially accepted to play games here compared to many other countries it seems like. I don't know a single male under the age 40 or so that doesn't play games to some extent.
On February 10 2011 04:11 Striding Strider wrote: A better question would be:
Why does Sweden produce such good players?
Sweden has a long "tradition" of PC use. I think the state gave ppl tax cuts if they bought PCs during the 90s, and we allways had computer science in school.
Just my theory, cant say i have any special insight into other countries computer habits really, altho i have seen alot of americans bash the internet :D
There's nothing to do but drinking and gaming 8 months a year, and drinking is fucking expensive here so naturally a lot of people play games. ;>
Seriously though you are probably quite right, it's also quite socially accepted to play games here compared to many other countries it seems like. I don't know a single male under the age 40 or so that doesn't play games to some extent.
Yeah its very socially acceptable indeed. When i was in like 7-9th grade cs1.6 was just "kicking off", and the equivalent of american "Jocks", at my school, were the gamers.
On February 12 2011 06:41 avilo wrote: I just have started laddering with my EU account, and so far as I rank up the differences I see are mainly with how EU protoss play.
Like for almost 4-5 straight TvPs I played as I was ranking up through placement -> masters, the protoss would 3gate voidray every single time and on NA no one does this build much anymore. Or they would think they're white-ra and build warp prisms, and on NA there's like only 2 players that ever build warp prisms, which is sort of hilarious when you think about it.
The Terrans i've come across so far all play marine/tank/medivac tvt, only full mech T i've played was goody on eu/na server. Though, i'm sure that's going to be more common very soon.
The Zergs so far...can't defend bunker rushes too good lol. My account is still low ranked, so obviously the better zergs can defend it perfectly fine tho i'd think.
I do think NA protosses try and force a more economic game on you, whereas EU protosses try and do some sneaky attack or all-inish push to damage you more.
imo there's no "skill difference," just a different style of play / philosophy / mentality for each server's players.
Like your "I build 3 bunkers of which 2 are far away and 2 rax you"-bunker rush that knocked me out of TSL? - Next time I meet you on ladder I will destroy you, if you decide to play like a real man does :>
On February 10 2011 02:49 Trowabarton756 wrote: Who cares which one is harder? If a player is skilled he will excel regardless of his location. Things like this are stupid and pointless, I've destroyed europeans, koreans, and americans....and Ive been destroyed by europeans, koreans, and americans.....So really nationality has nothing to do with anything other then an epeen parade.
Bragging rights man. EU won the EU vs US showmatch, so I it's EU until there's another showmatch ^^
On February 12 2011 07:44 cca1ss1e wrote: North America is one country.. lmao.
Spelt 'more' wrong in the Poll Question.. just sayin'.
XD
It's not really that far from the truth though when it comes to SC2, if that one country means Canada. :D
On February 12 2011 06:48 norlock wrote: Well EU is known for their weaker Z players, Just know some players are coming up. Like Morrow, DarkForce and Dimaga
HuK says EU is harder and he's a real mass ladder gamer.
On the other hand, I don't think I can even fully express how much I don't care and how little it matters. If you are truly at the point where that starts effecting your play and ability to proceed than you're good enough to get on a decent team or at least get some good practice partners. I mean, honestly, look at all the amazing NA players -- do you hear them saying "oh woe is me, if only I played on EU!" *dramatic swoon*? Yeah, didn't think so.
On February 12 2011 08:40 Char711 wrote: HuK says EU is harder and he's a real mass ladder gamer.
On the other hand, I don't think I can even fully express how much I don't care and how little it matters. If you are truly at the point where that starts effecting your play and ability to proceed than you're good enough to get on a decent team or at least get some good practice partners. I mean, honestly, look at all the amazing NA players -- do you hear them saying "oh woe is me, if only I played on EU!" *dramatic swoon*? Yeah, didn't think so.
well, they dont say that because they just do it lol, NA <=> EU seems playable and whoever feels like playing cross-sea and has an account just does it.
i agree though, it really doesnt matter for 99,99999% of players, it was just needed to shut up all the ignorant people who kept saying NA > EU in other threads.
All I know is that Huk said that EU is harder, but to be honest it really doesn't matter unless you're in the top 200 yourself in which case you're most likely playing on all 3 ladders anyways
I duno, I mean, I would guess Europe before I played on either one of them. Doesn't Europe have 2-3x the population of the U.S.? The main contributor to the N.A. server?
On February 12 2011 11:02 danl9rm wrote: I duno, I mean, I would guess Europe before I played on either one of them. Doesn't Europe have 2-3x the population of the U.S.? The main contributor to the N.A. server?
The EU's population is 500 million to US+Canada's 345 million, but according to SC2ranks, Europe has 726,415 SC2 accounts to NA's 951,006.
On February 12 2011 11:02 danl9rm wrote: I duno, I mean, I would guess Europe before I played on either one of them. Doesn't Europe have 2-3x the population of the U.S.? The main contributor to the N.A. server?
Europe has about 700 million inhabitants, while NA has about 550 million iirc. Which country is the "main contributor" to what server is obviously irrelevant. Saying you shouldn't count Canada is like saying you shouldn't count Eastern Europe.
Anyways, judging from tourney results and the fame of the players in the top of both servers respectively, I would have to give it to EU.
On February 12 2011 11:02 danl9rm wrote: I duno, I mean, I would guess Europe before I played on either one of them. Doesn't Europe have 2-3x the population of the U.S.? The main contributor to the N.A. server?
Europe has about 700 million inhabitants, while NA has about 550 million iirc. Which country is the "main contributor" to what server is obviously irrelevant. Saying you shouldn't count Canada is like saying you shouldn't count Eastern Europe.
Anyways, judging from tourney results and the fame of the players in the top of both servers respectively, I would have to give it to EU.
It is relevant if a large percentage of your population is Mexico. Anyway, I don't know why I posted in this thread, the premise is inconsequential. So, I apologize.
It might be inappropriate to bump this thread, but I think it's worth it. A lot has changed over a years time, and I think it's time to revisit the question. Back when this thread was created, I'd say that most everyone would agree EU was stronger (slightly). Is that still the case now?
I'm mostly asking because I am on the east coast of the US, so I can get decent latency on EU, but not at all to KR. Ideally I would be able to get a KR account for better practice, but I really can't. Is EU a better place for practice or roughly equal to NA now?
On June 04 2012 07:13 Mr Showtime wrote: It might be inappropriate to bump this thread, but I think it's worth it. A lot has changed over a years time, and I think it's time to revisit the question. Back when this thread was created, I'd say that most everyone would agree EU was stronger (slightly). Is that still the case now?
I'm mostly asking because I am on the east coast of the US, so I can get decent latency on EU, but not at all to KR. Ideally I would be able to get a KR account for better practice, but I really can't. Is EU a better place for practice or roughly equal to NA now?
I do not know the answer to your question. But I do know that you need to be at the very top for it to even matter. Basically, if you cannot get grandmaster on the US ladder then there is no point in switching.
(Sorry if you are GM already, I don't really follow the GM leagues)
Yeah, i remember a recent interview from TT1, back when he moved to mTw, and he said that he managed to stay in the top 10 of the NA ladder during his studies, whereas in EU, while playing full time, he only got around the top100 at start
I don't think is even debatable anymore. The EU players have surpassed the NA players by far imo. The best players to come from the NA server haven't really performed much at all these days, as opposed to players like Thorzain or Stephano who both made fairly considerable splashes in the scene
On June 04 2012 07:32 Durp wrote: I don't think is even debatable anymore. The EU players have surpassed the NA players by far imo. The best players to come from the NA server haven't really performed much at all these days, as opposed to players like Thorzain or Stephano who both made fairly considerable splashes in the scene
Top players in the world don't speak for the ladder as a whole
On June 04 2012 07:36 -Switch- wrote: unless you are in GM it does not matter
its easier to hit GM on NA so yes it matters
GM in general does not matter. just keep playing until you are good enough to play against the best players on your respective server. Do you want GM or do you want to become better?
On June 04 2012 07:48 superbarnie wrote: Obviously CN server players are the strOngest because they are always have the most ladder points.
Ladder points has nothing to do with skill, if anything it shows that there is a fairly wide range of players at the top with about the same skill level.
Also when we have seen the chinese players in action they didn't show that they were the best at all. Their best showing was at WCG with XiGua but their other performances (most notably the Code A GSL Season 1 2012) showed that they were just as good as other foreigners, nothing more and nothing less.
On June 04 2012 07:36 -Switch- wrote: unless you are in GM it does not matter
its easier to hit GM on NA so yes it matters
GM in general does not matter. just keep playing until you are good enough to play against the best players on your respective server. Do you want GM or do you want to become better?
if you are good enough you will eventually hit GM, on NA you can be worse but still hit GM thats my point. its simply easier to reach GM MMR on NA because there are less good players
On June 04 2012 08:02 maLaK1 wrote: KR Gold = EU Plat = NA Diamond
its true, stop making excuses americans
Do you know that from experience, or are you just making something up?
I have accounts on both NA and EU and at my level there is no difference. I'm high diamond on both EU and NA, so I don't personally feel that there is any difference.
If we are talking about the top of the ladder I think the old consensus of KR>EU>NA still holds true. At least when looking at tournaments, EU players seem a lot better than NA in general. A lot of Koreans have started to play on the NA ladder though, so that might have an effect.
On June 04 2012 08:02 maLaK1 wrote: KR Gold = EU Plat = NA Diamond
its true, stop making excuses americans
Do you know that from experience, or are you just making something up?
I have accounts on both NA and EU and at my level there is no difference. I'm high diamond on both EU and NA, so I don't personally feel that there is any difference.
If we are talking about the top of the ladder I think the old consensus of KR>EU>NA still holds true. At least when looking at tournaments, EU players seem a lot better than NA in general. A lot of Koreans have started to play on the NA ladder though, so that might have an effect.
He's making it up. It's true that KR diamond is roughly NA masters (with exception to the top of NA masters), but KR gold is definitely not NA diamond. EU may or may not be a little stronger than NA at this point, but it's not a leagues difference
I have accounts on EU and NA. I'm high diamond EU, lowish masters NA, even with the higher ping. I feel there is a difference, but it is not that huge.
I don't have an account on EU, but I can't imagine it is a full league in difference above NA below the GM level. It is fairly well established that at the top .1% to 1% of the population on each server KR > EU > NA respectively but until you hit that level it really doesn't matter at all.
EDIT: Minus about a 40-50 rank difference between KR and NA that I have noticed with my accounts, mid masters NA = mid-high diamond on KR.
A lot of EU and KR top players play on the NA server nowadays as well as their respective servers. This has helped NA high masters+ look deceptively close to EU in the highest echelon. But, the players just below the top level in EU and NA are definitely better in EU. Still not a huge gap. I am a high masters on NA and EU.
unless you are high masters/grandmasters it's pretty irrelevant. From personal experience I can say that diamond eu/na are pretty much the same level. The very top of eu may be higher, but that's mostly speculation from rankings, not an actual reflection of overall skill level.
On June 04 2012 08:40 ronpaul012 wrote: unless you are high masters/grandmasters it's pretty irrelevant. From personal experience I can say that diamond eu/na are pretty much the same level. The very top of eu may be higher, but that's mostly speculation from rankings, not an actual reflection of overall skill level.
Then why even NA players talk that Eu is way harder ? , not only GM or master players , diamond , plat also. USA/NA are already good in so many things.. why you wanna always be better ? Eu is harder then NA , KR is harder then EU its simple and clear to everyone.
I didn't know the poll would be so one sided but then again this is an international community so it's going to have more EU bias. But I play masters on both EU and NA and I'd say they are just about even, I don't win or lose on one server more than the other, I really don't think people should vote unless they are actually masters in both servers. Take it for what it is, but if someone is trying to decide what account to buy, buy which ever will lag the least, because both servers are pretty much identical.
On June 04 2012 08:54 emc wrote: I didn't know the poll would be so one sided but then again this is an international community so it's going to have more EU bias. But I play masters on both EU and NA and I'd say they are just about even, I don't win or lose on one server more than the other, I really don't think people should vote unless they are actually masters in both servers. Take it for what it is, but if someone is trying to decide what account to buy, buy which ever will lag the least, because both servers are pretty much identical.
Yeah I agree with this. If "2%" of the population is supposed to be Masters, it shouldn't really matter for the other 98% of the players on which server is harder. If you're gold/plat/diamond in NA you'll probably be the same in EU. Now the KR server is a whole different beast, but it's probably still the same thing for the lower ladder tiers.
On February 10 2011 03:09 Andr3 wrote: #29 CombatEX Is that the real combatEX? oO
Just because EU has more well known players doesn't necessarily mean it's a harder ladder. I think a big EU vs US should be made Though from the interviews I've read most pros say KR is hardest followed by EU and US.
If u talkin bout a EU vs NA showmatch. They already had one. EU won 8-3.
It would go so bad for NA had they made one more showmatch like that...
On June 04 2012 08:54 emc wrote: I didn't know the poll would be so one sided but then again this is an international community so it's going to have more EU bias. But I play masters on both EU and NA and I'd say they are just about even, I don't win or lose on one server more than the other, I really don't think people should vote unless they are actually masters in both servers. Take it for what it is, but if someone is trying to decide what account to buy, buy which ever will lag the least, because both servers are pretty much identical.
Then give me please screen , to your master EU account , and make it in game , with some proof , that you are a master EU player.
On June 04 2012 08:54 emc wrote: I didn't know the poll would be so one sided but then again this is an international community so it's going to have more EU bias. But I play masters on both EU and NA and I'd say they are just about even, I don't win or lose on one server more than the other, I really don't think people should vote unless they are actually masters in both servers. Take it for what it is, but if someone is trying to decide what account to buy, buy which ever will lag the least, because both servers are pretty much identical.
Yeah I agree with this. If "2%" of the population is supposed to be Masters, it shouldn't really matter for the other 98% of the players on which server is harder. If you're gold/plat/diamond in NA you'll probably be the same in EU. Now the KR server is a whole different beast, but it's probably still the same thing for the lower ladder tiers.
My friend was mid plat in EU , and top 10 diamond on NA , with terran , same play style etc...
Up until you get to the very top you will not notice in-game difference because of how MMR works. You will be matched with equally skilled opponents. What may happen is that when you are low masters on NA, you will end up high diamond on EU. Or you may hold a somewhat lower rank in your league. But most of us should not see skill difference. And there is no sense of getting an account to practice on a "more skilled" server until you get to the top due to match making mechanics. All you are doing is getting getting to play with more lag vs same skill level opponents
On June 04 2012 09:00 iokke wrote: Up until you get to the very top you will not notice the difference because of how MMR works. You will be matched with equally skilled opponents. What may happen is that when you are low masters on NA, you will end up high diamond on EU. But most of us, especially in the middle of a league should not see skill difference. And there is no sense of getting an account to practice on a "more skilled" server until you get to the top due to match making mechanics.
You can see skill diffrence very easy , and everyone can see it. There are many streams of EU and NA mid skill tournaments , everyone can compere play of players.
On June 04 2012 09:00 iokke wrote: Up until you get to the very top you will not notice the difference because of how MMR works. You will be matched with equally skilled opponents. What may happen is that when you are low masters on NA, you will end up high diamond on EU. But most of us, especially in the middle of a league should not see skill difference. And there is no sense of getting an account to practice on a "more skilled" server until you get to the top due to match making mechanics.
You can see skill diffrence very easy , and everyone can see it. There are many streams of EU and NA mid skill tournaments , everyone can compere play of players.
Perhaps, not exactly what I was talking about. I've heard of a few regular players (not pro) get a 2nd account to practice on a "more skilled" server. Then they ladder and get matched to the players whose levels is same to who they were matched on NA because of matchmaking mechanics. If you are below mid masters (perhaps even below high masters), i dont think it makes any sense to do that
On June 04 2012 08:40 ronpaul012 wrote: unless you are high masters/grandmasters it's pretty irrelevant. From personal experience I can say that diamond eu/na are pretty much the same level. The very top of eu may be higher, but that's mostly speculation from rankings, not an actual reflection of overall skill level.
Then why even NA players talk that Eu is way harder ? , not only GM or master players , diamond , plat also. USA/NA are already good in so many things.. why you wanna always be better ? Eu is harder then NA , KR is harder then EU its simple and clear to everyone.
On June 04 2012 09:00 iokke wrote: Up until you get to the very top you will not notice the difference because of how MMR works. You will be matched with equally skilled opponents. What may happen is that when you are low masters on NA, you will end up high diamond on EU. But most of us, especially in the middle of a league should not see skill difference. And there is no sense of getting an account to practice on a "more skilled" server until you get to the top due to match making mechanics.
You can see skill diffrence very easy , and everyone can see it. There are many streams of EU and NA mid skill tournaments , everyone can compere play of players.
Perhaps, not exactly what I was talking about. I've heard of a few regular players (not pro) get a 2nd account to practice on a more skilled server. Then they ladder and get match to the level players that they would get matched on NA because of matchmaking, so they gain nothing. If you are below mid masters (perhaps even below high masters), i dont think it makes any sense to do that
Maby , I dont say that i dont agree. I have only one friend that has playing in NA serwer and he go up league , from mid plat to top 10 diamond. I watch also some NA , and EU dialy tournamens when i see that EU games was just better.
But the fact is you can only check this be playing both serwers , i think EU is harder from what i see. NA players will say its the same , dunno ;P , many one day im gonna buy NA copy of the game.
On June 04 2012 08:40 ronpaul012 wrote: unless you are high masters/grandmasters it's pretty irrelevant. From personal experience I can say that diamond eu/na are pretty much the same level. The very top of eu may be higher, but that's mostly speculation from rankings, not an actual reflection of overall skill level.
Then why even NA players talk that Eu is way harder ? , not only GM or master players , diamond , plat also. USA/NA are already good in so many things.. why you wanna always be better ? Eu is harder then NA , KR is harder then EU its simple and clear to everyone.
lol, you're funny.
And why ? NA players are funny saying that for example destiny is NA top player... Other funny thing is Scarlett can beat 95% of top NA players. Yes i love her , but this is funny ;P
the difference between EU gm and NA gm is simply there.
TT1 was about top 100, not more when he was in europe for training. When he went back to NA he said on twitter "yeah, rank 1 of the bad players!" or sth in those lines
tslrevival clearly said EU ladder is harder, any pro says it.
its pretty clearly KR>EU>NA even WITH korean influence on NA.
Hate to be a dick, but it really boils down to whichever server the Koreans feel is better practice whilst Korean servers are either down or slow.(Which happens a lot more than you would think if you watch KR streamers) They would slant the W;L ratios one way or the other..... T.T
If you are talking about homegrown talent this entire thread is meaningless and a little disingenuous. 1. All the best players from those servers at some point would be associated with KR influence and either practiced in or with Korean players. So making a EU vs NA match would be pointless. 2. Whichever server you do decide to pick (preferably the one close to you for latency) that one will seem harder because your MMR is more adjusted to face players of equal skill level where as the others wont be as well adjusted.
I have one point that I'm appauled hasn't come up in the last 3 pages. Isn't this an unfair comparison of uneven numbers? According to sc2ranks.com (no idea of the validity or activeness of these people), EU server has 1,060,332 ranked accounts while NA server has 1,386,055 ranked accounts. Having literally 33% more would definitely water down the player pool, would it not?
On June 04 2012 10:09 zezamer wrote: You should rename your poll
"Are you from NA/EU" ?
This poll is over a year old, and might have been true back then. It might be worth locking this thread, as there is nothing relevant today that can be discussed based of OPs post/poll.
I'm masters on both and can tell you that the skill is extremely similar, but meta-game and play styles by race do vary quite a bit. From my experience Protoss on EU cheese and all in much more than on NA, and vice-versa for Zerg. The Terran strategies are more diverse on EU, lots of people copy GSL stuff. Overall though, very similar skill levels.
On June 04 2012 10:19 Above and Beyond wrote: haha I gotta go with EU here. im sure if Stephano even ate or touched american food he would go on a big losing streak
We will find out at MLG since he is staying with EG
On June 04 2012 07:36 -Switch- wrote: unless you are in GM it does not matter
its easier to hit GM on NA so yes it matters
GM in general does not matter. just keep playing until you are good enough to play against the best players on your respective server. Do you want GM or do you want to become better?
if you are good enough you will eventually hit GM, on NA you can be worse but still hit GM thats my point. its simply easier to reach GM MMR on NA because there are less good players
On June 04 2012 11:16 Pokebunny wrote: I think they're pretty close now with a lot of koreans playing on NA. I find the average level of low GM / high master players on EU to be lower too.
The way I see it is as follows:
There are more good players on EU who are professionals compared to NA. Or at least, when I watch a stream it seems to me that the variability in matchmaking is lower meaning that the games on ladder are often more close and meaningful and strategies more varied on the EU ladder.
However, for all the NORMAL people who play this game for fun and aren't semi-pro or pro, the difference means nothing to us. This is why I hate these stupid threads.
People come in here and say Im on EU, EU is harder, Im masters EU im better than masters NA. No. I am sorry but no. The people on top of ladder in EU and NA can trade games for the most part. Its not the same as top of KR vs top of NA or EU. But at the same time at mid masters, at diamond, at plat at almost any level the difference between NA and EU is minimal.
Sure, there might be more high end players on EU who play seriously and professionally but that doesn't mean the EU ladder is magically 100x better than NA. Im pretty sure plat on KR isn't so so so much better than everyone on NA or EU either. The myth that KR plats are 1000x better is probably helped by not high level players getting a KR account and having some 500ms ping to deal with which makes it harder to perform well. While being masters in NA doesn't mean you are masters in KR, it doesn't mean you are plat either.
I think people need to stop worrying about the ladder and their ranking and start focusing on just enjoying the game.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Throughout my time playing sc2, i've played same league players for example PLAT on both EU and NA and EU have been faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar superior in terms of skill, execution, strategy, etc..... Throughout all leagues.
People who are saying that the difference is only at GM level are either Americans or haven't actually played on the other server.
I've played ~100 games on US, laddered two accounts from placements to masters and I can say that EU is quite a lot stronger from until the early leagues. Another solid conclusion is that there's A TON more cheese on NA. Other than these things, ladder is ladder, you will get practice anyways unless your the best in your region.
On June 04 2012 15:38 emis wrote: People who are saying that the difference is only at GM level are either Americans or haven't actually played on the other server.
I've played ~100 games on US, laddered two accounts from placements to masters and I can say that EU is quite a lot stronger from until the early leagues. Another solid conclusion is that there's A TON more cheese on NA. Other than these things, ladder is ladder, you will get practice anyways unless your the best in your region.
This has very little relevance. On the KR server you will encounter lots of cheese as well.
On June 04 2012 15:38 emis wrote: I've played ~100 games on US, laddered two accounts from placements to masters and I can say that EU is quite a lot stronger from until the early leagues.
Are you masters/facing masters in EU?
If so, isn't just working as intended... You already have the skill level of a master's player, ergo you should end up on masters if both regions are similar in skill. If you started at placement, means you had to be playing mostly diamonds and then masters, which should be easy for you since you are a higher level player than diamond.
I definately agree with the poll ... i have accounts on both servers and while im about high dia on eu im mid master on na ... and all in all playing against master player on eu seems way harder than playing against master from na. also i can second that on the na server there are a lot more cheeses than on eu. i wouldnt say the difference is too big but there is definately a difference
On February 10 2011 03:09 Andr3 wrote: #29 CombatEX Is that the real combatEX? oO
Just because EU has more well known players doesn't necessarily mean it's a harder ladder. I think a big EU vs US should be made Though from the interviews I've read most pros say KR is hardest followed by EU and US.
If u talkin bout a EU vs NA showmatch. They already had one. EU won 8-3.
It would go so bad for NA had they made one more showmatch like that...
find someone to sponsor the event and well see what about that :+)
On June 04 2012 09:41 sCCrooked wrote: I have one point that I'm appauled hasn't come up in the last 3 pages. Isn't this an unfair comparison of uneven numbers? According to sc2ranks.com (no idea of the validity or activeness of these people), EU server has 1,060,332 ranked accounts while NA server has 1,386,055 ranked accounts. Having literally 33% more would definitely water down the player pool, would it not?
I don't get that point. Was that sarcasm getting over my head? :D
Because if we were to reason like that then SEA would be the toughest server by far.
edit: I have no opinion on NA vs EU; I love both communities, just puzzled by that argument in particular.
All I ever encountered on EU was the same badly executed cheese. I've played it for whole seasons and same thing. The GM league of NA is littered with koreans as well.
On June 04 2012 16:18 jackalope1234 wrote: top 400 NA > EU < 400 EU < NA
All I ever encountered on EU was the same badly executed cheese. I've played it for whole seasons and same thing. The GM league of NA is littered with koreans as well.
On June 04 2012 16:18 jackalope1234 wrote: top 400 NA > EU < 400 EU < NA
All I ever encountered on EU was the same badly executed cheese. I've played it for whole seasons and same thing. The GM league of NA is littered with koreans as well.
Erm. NA > EU = EU < NA
unless this is some obtruse math problem where
top[cond.] 400|NA| > EU < 400|EU| < NA i dont know either
Im listing the servers in rank for a average players level, not a pro's level.
1 EU - By far the hardest of the 3. This is where my main account is and is the server i most struggle on. Leauge by leauge untill high masters GM, EU is a leauge ahead, maybe even 2 at silver and gold level.
2 SEA - Abit harder than NA untill high diamond - masters. Since theres such a low player count in SEA, you get matched up against masters players while in plat since theres so few players playing. Thus why im putting it ahead of NA to ladder as an average player.
3 NA - I found at the lower end of NA ladder, its like silver - gold EU up untill diamond. In masters, NA sorta catches up to EU. NA is only strongest at GM level.
On June 04 2012 09:41 sCCrooked wrote: I have one point that I'm appauled hasn't come up in the last 3 pages. Isn't this an unfair comparison of uneven numbers? According to sc2ranks.com (no idea of the validity or activeness of these people), EU server has 1,060,332 ranked accounts while NA server has 1,386,055 ranked accounts. Having literally 33% more would definitely water down the player pool, would it not?
I don't get that point. Was that sarcasm getting over my head? :D
Because if we were to reason like that then SEA would be the toughest server by far.
edit: I have no opinion on NA vs EU; I love both communities, just puzzled by that argument in particular.
No, he means that if we look at Top 200 vs Top 200, it isn't "parallel" because NA has more players. Since NA has about 33% more players, it would be more fair to compare the Top 266 NA to the Top 200 EU
hope that makes sense
Although it doesn't really make sense because looking at the Top 200 NA instead of the Top 266 NA would give NA an advantage when comparing to EU; since NA has more players, it means they have more good players at the top, so comparing Top 200 NA to Top 200 EU isn't fair, but Top 266 NA to Top 200 EU would be
in other words, EU is even "harder" (has a better Top 200) than NA than what people think xD
Hm I have played on EU, and for me I didn't find it that much different, in zvz all EU did was cheese it seemed (I swear to god every zvz except a couple were 6-8 pools lol).
I faced GM's on EU, won, face GM's on NA, won but I'll be honest I haven't played on EU for about a year now (and stopped playing on NA for about 8 months to due to having no lat on kr so played there for 8 months). So maybe EU is harder now dunno, but I know on NA lots of koreans play on it now so it's not as easy as it used to be if you are high masters/gm.
On June 04 2012 09:41 sCCrooked wrote: I have one point that I'm appauled hasn't come up in the last 3 pages. Isn't this an unfair comparison of uneven numbers? According to sc2ranks.com (no idea of the validity or activeness of these people), EU server has 1,060,332 ranked accounts while NA server has 1,386,055 ranked accounts. Having literally 33% more would definitely water down the player pool, would it not?
I don't get that point. Was that sarcasm getting over my head? :D
Because if we were to reason like that then SEA would be the toughest server by far.
edit: I have no opinion on NA vs EU; I love both communities, just puzzled by that argument in particular.
No, he means that if we look at Top 200 vs Top 200, it isn't "parallel" because NA has more players. Since NA has about 33% more players, it would be more fair to compare the Top 266 NA to the Top 200 EU
hope that makes sense
Although it doesn't really make sense because looking at the Top 200 NA instead of the Top 266 NA would give NA an advantage when comparing to EU; since NA has more players, it means they have more good players at the top, so comparing Top 200 NA to Top 200 EU isn't fair, but Top 266 NA to Top 200 EU would be
in other words, EU is even "harder" (has a better Top 200) than NA than what people think xD
Given that skill is equally distributed between both groups, the top 200 of a 1.3 million group should be significantly better than the top 200 of a 1 million group. Because you are comparing the top 0.015% with the top 0.02%.
To make it clear: In a 200 player group, everyone is top 200 and therefore the top 200 is the weakest compared to a 1000 player group, where the best 20% of the population is in the top 200.
On June 04 2012 16:18 jackalope1234 wrote: top 400 NA > EU < 400 EU < NA
All I ever encountered on EU was the same badly executed cheese. I've played it for whole seasons and same thing. The GM league of NA is littered with koreans as well.
Would you prove it by linking your EU and NA profile so that we can compare which one your higher with? I can ensure you that you're higher ranked with your NA account because EU is a lot harder.
I think at the beginning, it was equally hard on both, however somewhere in the middle, the EU scene seemed to have overpowered the NA one. But by know, the NA ladder definitely caught up on the high end, simply by all the smurf accounts of the Korean professionals. ^.^
hm this might be a troll thread. It clearly invites everyone to start bashing on the other server while an answer to the question could be easily obtained by looking at results (for example MLG).
EU is obviously harder. I'm from Poland, and have been playing on EU for some time now, was placed #2 in my Diamond division about a week ago (wasn't playing due to the end of my finals, parties etc. ) so got dropped to ~10th place. My MMR is currently at the level of high diamond/low masters, according to what level of opponents I'm getting. Around 3 weeks ago, I've started playing on NA and currently, I am matched with mid to high masters players and I feel like sometimes their skill level is even lower than the skill level of high Diamonds on EU.
Playing at mid/high masters on both EU/NA, I can say for sure there's a small difference.. but that's it.. it's a small difference. I constantly have 100-200 more points on NA than EU at the end of each season.
Its only noticeable in Masters and GM cause alot of famous players are playing on EU and many many gaming houses. Thats why this whole myth started. But it doesnt affect anyone from bronze to diamond.
You could probably say the top 0.5% of EU are better but than you could also make a point that the top 20-50 are roughly equal in skill and performance
Indeed, I find EU to be harder than NA. It's not as drastic as the exorbitant claims will say but there is a noticeable increase in difficulty in lower leagues compared to my natural server.
Those claiming that EU is the hardest bestest blahblah are arrogant sods but it is harder on average.
Not even close tbh. There are so many relatively unknown players on EU that are as good or better than Demuslim/ ostojiy/ other NA rank 1 regulars--
Everyone on Roxkis, nerchio, snute darkforce, lucifron, welmu, feast, Bischu
then you got players like mana, hasuobs, dimaga, stephano, socke, kas, and ret that just make the NA scene look sad in comparison.
yea quite a few koreans play on the NA server (like 10~ regulars) but such a small number does not outweigh how much better the avg EU gm is to NA. If you watch EU players stream, they hit a pro gamer almost every game, while you'll hit quite a few random joes on NA GM.
This was just for GM. Masters and below is equally bad on both servers, compared to Korea where most masters players are as good or better than GM EU.
Nearly every person vouching for EU or NA are vouching for their own server (NA vouching for even, EU vouching for theirs being better). Also no top players have commented on the lower leagues (bronze to top-50 masters barring top 25 and higher) being a major difference. Has that exact question even been posed to the GM leagues on either server in the last 1-2 months? The OP was not just discussing the top GM ranks but all ranks (numerically EU is far more saturated at the top).
i wouldnt say that either is harder. i would just say that the top 200 are the top 200 just bc there isnt as many skilled players on NA doesnt change the skill level. it just means that there isnt as many good people. but i highly doubt the skill level is different. there just might be more skilled players in EU
On June 04 2012 09:41 sCCrooked wrote: I have one point that I'm appauled hasn't come up in the last 3 pages. Isn't this an unfair comparison of uneven numbers? According to sc2ranks.com (no idea of the validity or activeness of these people), EU server has 1,060,332 ranked accounts while NA server has 1,386,055 ranked accounts. Having literally 33% more would definitely water down the player pool, would it not?
I don't get that point. Was that sarcasm getting over my head? :D
Because if we were to reason like that then SEA would be the toughest server by far.
edit: I have no opinion on NA vs EU; I love both communities, just puzzled by that argument in particular.
No, he means that if we look at Top 200 vs Top 200, it isn't "parallel" because NA has more players. Since NA has about 33% more players, it would be more fair to compare the Top 266 NA to the Top 200 EU
hope that makes sense
Although it doesn't really make sense because looking at the Top 200 NA instead of the Top 266 NA would give NA an advantage when comparing to EU; since NA has more players, it means they have more good players at the top, so comparing Top 200 NA to Top 200 EU isn't fair, but Top 266 NA to Top 200 EU would be
in other words, EU is even "harder" (has a better Top 200) than NA than what people think xD
Given that skill is equally distributed between both groups, the top 200 of a 1.3 million group should be significantly better than the top 200 of a 1 million group. Because you are comparing the top 0.015% with the top 0.02%.
To make it clear: In a 200 player group, everyone is top 200 and therefore the top 200 is the weakest compared to a 1000 player group, where the best 20% of the population is in the top 200.
Yes, I was trying to get at that (if you are quoting me to show i'm wrong, rather than to add on to what I say). You explained it better though ^^
I have an account on NA, KR, EU and i'd say the order is KR, EU, then NA in that particular order. However there are some days where EU seems to be harder than KR, but then again ELO and MMR changes all the time~
I'm studying in the US this year. Previously I lived in Europe so I am fresh on switching between the two servers. I have to say that at low masters/high diamond level there is a massive difference in playstyle. I play p. Half the pvp's are cannon rushes in NA something which I hadn't seen in EU since season 1. 4gates abound also much more than in EU. Of course I am talking about a sample of 150 games so about 60 pvps. Zerg and Terran are mostly the same although I have seen too many 1base roach ling allin's or stealing my expansion with a hatchery (both of which I consider autowins for me :D ). Since I hear that the KR server is the cheesiest of all, my conclusion would be that EU favors the macro game.
EPT
Though from the interviews I've read most pros say KR is hardest followed by EU and US.
), so if you win a tourney in NA it's a win for USA anyways, but if you win a tourney in EU you have to go up against other countries and everyone wants to make his country proud and gain some fame for it.
