|
I've always found the classical posts 'disproving' the effect of worker splitting to be very flawed. The round trip time for a mining worker is about 7 game seconds. If you measure the amount of minerals at a particular time, you can miss a huge reduction of mining time because the mineral count is incremented so rarely. This is easiest to see with an example. Suppose you have 1 worker that you send a 0sec to mine a patch with RTT of 7secs. You measure the amount of minerals at 1min and get 60/7*5 = 40 minerals. You restart and send a worker at 4secs to mine the same patch. You measure the minerals at 1min and get (60-4)/7*5 = 40 minerals. You can't even detect a 4 sec reduction in mining time. The best way to do this is to measure the time it takes to reach a certain mineral threshold, preferable down to the millisec. I believe the advantage is about 1 sec to doing a real split. It is still small admittedly.
Here is the data I have on hand. I was checking these splits: 3/3, 2/2/2, F1, F1+Stacking. The F1+Stacking is a split that I devised myself. (I actually thought the split in this thread would be it based on the name). This F1+Stacking trick is using F1 to send 4 workers to the closest 4 patches, then wait a bit and send the next 2 workers to stack on 2 of these closest patches. Basically the idea was to get all workers on the closest patches as soon as possible. This data is the time it takes to reach 50 minerals (for the second worker).
3/3 Splitting 17.3
2/2/2 Splitting 17.8
F1 Splitting 16.9
F1+Stacking 16.7
*Note: I am bad at 2/2/2 splits.
As far as the split posted here, I don't think it is really going to be better than the standard splits. You don't actually really split off the workers until they are almost at the mineral patch, in which case autosplit would work almost as well. Perhaps surprisingly, it isn't that important to get to the closest patches immediately. After the workers return minerals, it is easy to adjust them to go to the best patches. Also, there is a much smaller distance to run if you switch patches at the nexus compared to switching patches in the mineral line.
|
On February 02 2011 17:42 teh_longinator wrote:
I usually just do the 3-3 drone split, then set my mining rally points each time I make a drone or two, moving it across the patches in a line... the AI seems to do a bunch of work for me...
The only thing I'm worrying about right now is which is the best way to get my second overlord out... 9OL, 11 extractor trick, DOUBLE extractor trick, 10OL?
Just shooting a little advice out there:
If I'm planning on 14/15 hatching I 10 OL.
If I'm sensing early pressure I go either 11 extractor or 9OL.
Going 11 extractor allows you to 11 overpool allowing for a quicker defense v. all ins and such. 9OL I transition into 14 pools and such.
|
On February 02 2011 16:54 SichuanPanda wrote:
It was mathematically proven over 1000s of iterations in beta - build workers first, send all to closest patch is the fastest way to start ones economy. Is there a link to a thread proving I should build a worker before I send my six workers to mine?
It should be better to send the 6 workers first, because you get 6 time the income of a single worker. (I am assuming that I am no perfect player, so I have to decide if I should delay the first worker to build or the six given workers to work.)
|
OP's concept is completely valid. No one is going to disagree that keeping your miners on the closer patches is optimal.
The way I split my probes is like this (and btw every time I split, my APM bursts to around 700, so keep that in mind for viability): I f1 split, and then individually select probes, before they reach the minerals, to send them to specific locations if necessary. For example, if I f1 split but accidentally send one to a far patch, I'll select him and have him go to the nearest close patch instead, before he ever reaches his destination.
PS: I agree that my original thread on splitting is scientifically flawed when trying to determine (taking the above example) fastest way to get 50 minerals. However, it does accurately represent the idea that "splitting basically doesn't matter", which is true.
|
it only matters for the first return but i have a theory as to why it balances out. suppose you get perfect split and then perfect placement for all 8 of your first workers. great. now every mineral patch has a worker on it and u now have the highest probability chance (at that moment in the game) for the next probe to spawn from your nexus to be rallied to a busy mineral patch, causing it to search for the nearest free one - and the likelihood of a free one being farther away increases corresponding to the efficiency of your spread. this is the reason why after 2 minutes its about the same, however a proper harvester spread will get you enough to get that first probe out with no lag time and with most efficient placement you will get your pylon as quick as possible which does matter if one is 10 gating or proxying but in most other builds its irrelevant. i'm not sure how the other races can make use of the early harvester efficiency but really the math is all within the explanation i gave you i just don't understand the numbers. i'll update my sig soon too, go by zugzwang now.
|
I always end up screwing it up, well most times I'm fine but when I start tilting I fuck up small stuff like this and it makes me rage lol. Nice contribution but!
|
To be honest, no matter how you split your worker, it is so insignificant in terms of gameplay.
It's all about warming your hand, using that skill throughout the game like marine split against banglings or high templars or siege tanks. What so good if you can do a 1-1-1-1-1-1 split at the start when your marine blob dies to banglings and lose the game?
|
On February 02 2011 13:02 tehemperorer wrote:Hello all, this is a quick informational guide to the community on how to properly mineral split. It is also a way for me (if I may) to continue to encourage TLers to watch my short, 10 minute show that I stream for TL readers (meaning not advertised or popularized on any other site)! The premise of the mineral split in this context is to get the most minerals out of the split from the opening seconds of the game. In episode 4 I detail this in the beginning, so if you were to watch anything it would be the beginning of episode 4, where I go through the basics of my (Sidereal) particular mineral split vs a very common 3-3 split. It is a 4-1-1 split, where after the quick clicks each starting probe is on the closest mineral patches to the nexus, in the case of my race. By doing this, even though all players, especially in mirror matches, are identical up until usually the 12th probe, this split will put you ahead against other versions of mineral splitting. I believe this split is superior. I, however, am a simple human and am capable of showing humility, so if it is actually not as good, please let me know! Also, if there are any comments (positive or negative, don't matta), please leave them on the TL thread for the stream! I am constantly reviewing it and trying to get better, so any feedback is def appreciated! Link to stream: http://www.livestream.com/tehempLink directly to episode 3, the beginning of which is the mineral split discussion: http://www.livestream.com/tehemp/video?clipId=pla_8a9de969-ae7d-4e91-ab12-9519ada279d2Link to stream thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185138Happy hunting, jeee ouse.
Didnt finish watching the video, but there are several differences in both of your splits which give you the impression that yours is better.
1) Income fluctuates rapidly, the actual difference between splitting and not is down to like... milliseconds. If you actually care about a 30 mineral burst that is milliseconds different (and it is just a burst, since only the first 6 workers are effected, any after that are the same)
2) The reason your probes are coming out slightly faster is not because of income, but because he sent workers down then built his probe while you built your probe then sent your workers.
3) He didnt split, he did a select all -> send to minerals. The split you thought you saw was actually just him selecting all of his probes again.
|
Just asking a question from someone else's comment - I notice basically everyone builds a worker before sending the others to the mineral line. That guy says that's "proven" but I've always sent workers to patch BEFORE building because I really can't understand how delaying 6 workers for 1/2 second is better than delaying one.
Is it true? oO
|
I think people should use better terminology for splits.
You say 4-1-1, I think 6-1-1 (or could be a 6-2-1) is better notation though. 4-1-1 shows at a glance the different groups, but it doesn't elaborate on how they were attained.
Typical 3-3 is I think a 6-3? at least that's how I do my "3-3", if I make a mistake it usually becomes a 6-4 or 6-2.
I think it's pretty important to distinguish whether you leave some workers sitting at the start, or don't. Even if one says that all (good) splits would initially start with 6, and that it should be implied, it still doesn't explain things as logically or accurately.
|
I like the way this split feels, it's easier to do than the 3-3 split because half the time I end up doing a 2-4. It might be slightly better but as long as it's not worse I'll probably be doing this from now on.
edit: show is pretty cool actually
|
On February 02 2011 19:49 NeXiLe wrote:
Just asking a question from someone else's comment - I notice basically everyone builds a worker before sending the others to the mineral line. That guy says that's "proven" but I've always sent workers to patch BEFORE building because I really can't understand how delaying 6 workers for 1/2 second is better than delaying one.
Is it true? oO
I've wondered the same but I think most of the people are just not smart enough to realise it. We're on planet earth you know.
They could have a little argument though that sending+splitting workers takes more time than starting the production of an scv, so you basically have the shortest delay in between if you start the worker first, but this delay has to be 6 times bigger than the delay the splitting gives to make up for it.
|
On February 02 2011 19:49 NeXiLe wrote:
Just asking a question from someone else's comment - I notice basically everyone builds a worker before sending the others to the mineral line. That guy says that's "proven" but I've always sent workers to patch BEFORE building because I really can't understand how delaying 6 workers for 1/2 second is better than delaying one.
Is it true? oO
It shouldn't take more than milliseconds to "start". As the game loads I (left-handed) have my thumb on ctrl, my forefinger on q(build probe in grid layout), and my middle finger on F1. I put my mouse cursor in the exact center of my screen. As soon as the game starts i click and hit q, then ctrl+f1 milliseconds afterwards, then right click on the minerals. I usually do a 3/3 split while they are en-route, just because i can. I don't see how it really matters either way, but it literally takes less than a half second to make the worker first.
|
On February 02 2011 19:35 furymonkey wrote:
To be honest, no matter how you split your worker, it is so insignificant in terms of gameplay.
It's all about warming your hand, using that skill throughout the game like marine split against banglings or high templars or siege tanks. What so good if you can do a 1-1-1-1-1-1 split at the start when your marine blob dies to banglings and lose the game?
Lol. Bad example imo...
If you can do a 1-1-1-1-1-1 worker split, am pretty sure you wont have a prob doing a marine split against banes. 
|
I remember a video on TL from Berkeley University about binomial distribution and mining, the conclusion was that (in BW) you gain more minerals if you send your workers to the patches at the edges of mineral line. I don't know if it's the same in SC2.
|
Anyone who thinks Splitting doesn't get them extra minerals simply doesn't have the raw apm to do it. To the people who do it they will notice their timings are slightly off. I can build SCVs and that first supply depot without getting blocked by splitting properly. If it's not done right I get blocked. There is an obvious advantage early game.
For example, say all your workers went to different patches on the fastest route as quick as possible right at the start with inhuman speed, you seriously don't think that would net you faster minerals? It's the same concept and how well you do it is directly effected by how fast your hands can move.
|
On February 02 2011 17:17 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:57 ch33psh33p wrote:On February 02 2011 16:54 SichuanPanda wrote:
It was mathematically proven over 1000s of iterations in beta - build workers first, send all to closest patch is the fastest way to start ones economy. Way to read the post bro. Or even the topic title. I did and the poster was proposing a way of faster worker splitting and/or how to start ones economy as fast as possible, (as stated in the post before mine (the one you quoted), he used a flawed method of obtaining data) not to mention that in addition to that its been proven worker splitting slows you down, thus making this whole topic redundant. Perhaps you should re-read the topic to make sure you retained everything, bro.
Everyone worker splits AFTER building the first probe, it isn't even a question here.
|
On February 02 2011 18:15 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:54 SichuanPanda wrote:
It was mathematically proven over 1000s of iterations in beta - build workers first, send all to closest patch is the fastest way to start ones economy. Is there a link to a thread proving I should build a worker before I send my six workers to mine? It should be better to send the 6 workers first, because you get 6 time the income of a single worker. (I am assuming that I am no perfect player, so I have to decide if I should delay the first worker to build or the six given workers to work.)
I send my 6 workers, build an SCV and split before they reach the patches. It always nets me at least 10 faster minerals that I would have non-split allowing me to get that depot without supply blocking myself.
|
During beta one guy make tons of experiment with this... and his conclusion was: theres no reason to split your worker in SC2.
Worst... you could misclick and now you could be behind...
Instead of trying to split the worker... just type "gl hf".
|
On February 02 2011 23:15 Figgy20000 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 18:15 [F_]aths wrote:On February 02 2011 16:54 SichuanPanda wrote:
It was mathematically proven over 1000s of iterations in beta - build workers first, send all to closest patch is the fastest way to start ones economy. Is there a link to a thread proving I should build a worker before I send my six workers to mine? It should be better to send the 6 workers first, because you get 6 time the income of a single worker. (I am assuming that I am no perfect player, so I have to decide if I should delay the first worker to build or the six given workers to work.) I send my 6 workers, build an SCV and split before they reach the patches. It always nets me at least 10 faster minerals that I would have non-split allowing me to get that depot without supply blocking myself.
Always better to build, then send workers. No question whatsoever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
