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On January 24 2011 07:32 Adebisi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 07:14 DwmC_Foefen wrote:On January 24 2011 06:52 Jayme wrote:On January 24 2011 06:27 Adebisi wrote:
Please explain to me how a large map makes drop harass more effective. Any good Z has nice overlord placement and drop play is nullified by the mid game once any mutas are out, and trying to clean up spotting OLs with vikings just becomes a waste of money. You know somehow protoss were able to sneak in reavers against master multtaskers like Jaedong...I think that people will manage some how. He probably has no clue who you are talking about now :p. Ontopic: I like the thought that zerg will be able to make good flankattacks with the increased size in maps. And as the OP said, it'll provoke a more strategic attackstyle more similar to BW where Zerg always tried to catch the terran off-guard or when he is moving. And in general too, armies will have to be more controlled, not just in ZvX. This tactical maneuvering is something that, in my opinion, will increase 1)the pleasure of the viewer and 2) the number of totally awesome epic games. Anyway waiting for protoss and terran experiences. (Not that gay theory crafting kutshit "dropharras won't be possible mimimimimiimimimimi") I know very well who Jaedong is, thanks though. There's really no need to wait to post experiences, if you want to know how ZvP and ZvT will work with the new maps get off your lazy ass go look up and aggregate results from how TvZ/PvZ goes on cross spawn Metal/Shakuras and compare it to how it works on closer spawns, the topic is about how late game TvZ goes on bigger maps as compared to the smaller ones currently in the pool and it doesn't take a genius to realize as the map gets bigger it gets more challenging for Terran. You can call it "gay theorcrafting kutshit" if you want but I'm pretty sure that with the current trend of basically every Z and their mother favouring Mutalisks, and Mutalisks having even better synergy the larger the map, I don't think drop play is really what TvZ is going to be about for Terran and that relying on slow pushes more, alot of turrets. tanks and possibly even leapfrogging bunkers is what Terran needs to rely on.
I dont feel that lategame on these maps plays out the same as on shakurus or metal cross positions, they are just barely too small. Metal, even cross positions, has 2, not particularly wide avenues of attack going down the map, and there arent really clear divisions between 'advantage terran' and 'advantage' zerg areas. Shakurus cross is a bit better, but still, the main attack path is either through the center, which doesnt allow for that much flanking, or through either of the top/bottom passageways.
I honestly am not 100% sure how the pro terran players will deal with the large numbers of muta, but seeing as how mutas are weaker than in bw, and marines are better, im sure that mutas wont really break anything even on a large map. You routinely see flash getting mass missile turrets on 2-3 bases to defend large amounts of mutas, and then pushing with bio to punish the zerg for investing so much into an army that cant really fight bio head on. These pushes are ussually good for taking out an expansion, NOT ending the game right there. Those are the sorts of trends i started to see in my games. (obviously not with flash execution, but the same principles held). Anything less then a large number of mutas (>10) can not deal effectively with (multiple) marine drops so it sort of balances out I think.
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On January 24 2011 06:47 Akzever wrote:
Its not like you just sneak dropships around for drop harass. You start pushing forward and make the zerg fight your mid push (or die), and while hes microing his banes against your marines, your dropship beelines for the most exposed expo. Terrans drop harass in brood war all game, it is NOT nullified by mutas or overlord placement.
WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA... wait a second... "MICRO banelings against YOUR marines..." That doesn't sound right at all.. If T looks away from his marines for just a second to try to do a drop against banelings we all know what is going to happen to those marines.. Terran anti air is horribad without the marines which is the most fragile and core unit terran has in their army. Once the marines are gone tanks are picked off by mutas and lings easily and the entire army just falls apart. When terran loses their mech its pretty much game over, it takes forever to replenish mech so all zerg really ahs to do is kill that big push terran does and its over in the late game.
I can have all the minerals in the world and never have the gas to afford to replace my units other than marines which die pretty quickly to a lot of things in the late game especially on a bigger map.. People need to stop whining about OC because really what limits terran the most is their gas. So harassing the gas is actually well worth it more than mineral lines.
User was warned for this post
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I think bigger maps will make reapers useful in the mid-game. Zerg will have a lot of area to defend when they start getting mass expansions. Reapers are quite fast and can move in, snipe a building, then run out. It can also pick off lings and gain map control, at least until mutas are out. And even when mutas are out you can use them for counter attacks and also use them to deny expansions. Hellions can be used in a similar fashion.
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Can anyone plz give me a link to some vods on these maps, or youtube videos or whatever... Im trying to find some for 2 days now and havent managed :/ Thx in advance!
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pretty sure that regardless of map size, the same things will happen that happen to terran today in late-game. you try to do drops and all that fancy stuff and dont look at your army for a second, all those marines will die and that's game.
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The point many people in this thread are missing is that 'current results' are not reliable for extrapolation to the new maps.
The reason T loses so many games proportionally on cross positions Meta/LT is that the current metagame does not emphasise that brand of terran style.
I am not saying I know what will happen on the larger maps - noone does. Terran may lose badly, maybe because of the very reasons people are saying. And they may not. But the reasons they lose currently are because large-scale macro is a more difficult and complex part of the game, and it is one which is not well understood yet - yes, even at the top levels.
The opinions of the top pros change wildly every season of GSL, and they are right for the time they are playing in. They will be wrong 1 year from now, unless the next true Bonjwa from 2013 borrows a time machine.
This isn't a secret - 4WG was unstoppable and needed nerfs two months ago. Now it's just something accessible for starting protoss to cut their teeth with the race on. But imagine what a current 2-base 6-gate all-in would have done to the same zergs qqing then? 4WG used to crush me, but now I handle it with ease, and I can do it even without roaches. 6-pool was debated to be OP only weeks prior, and sling/bling was the only way you could play ZvZ!
It is unfortunately more important to know how to all-in than it is to know how to manage 5 base macro in the current game state - at least if you want to win games. Sure the pros are better at macroing, and it's a pyramid of skill from bronze to S-class, but the base of the macro pyramid is very, very small currently. The pros have to play on SoW and close-pos DeltaQ more than the 3 possible macro game map spawns in the entire 15 or so possible spawn combos currently in the pool. So of course they can't be good at it, relatively - they would be stupid to focus their training on what is currently a tiny portion of the tournament situation.
It won't always be this way.
Brood war meta game is macro the majority of games, and cheese/all-ins a the minority. But we have a long way to go before the game is as mature as BW, and I don't know if the next-gen big maps will be a step on that road.
I can say the game will change with bigger maps. I don't claim to know how.
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I can say the game will change with bigger maps. I don't claim to know how.
+1
The community just needs to start playing and find out. I'd bet a pretty penny that any issues (i am wary of imba here) between races will be met with changes in the metagame given enough time. Imo i think it will at the very least provide fun games to watch.
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If anyone has replays of high level games on these maps I would love to see them if you upload them to sc2rep.com or sc2replayed. <3
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On January 24 2011 08:27 Raid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 06:47 Akzever wrote:
Its not like you just sneak dropships around for drop harass. You start pushing forward and make the zerg fight your mid push (or die), and while hes microing his banes against your marines, your dropship beelines for the most exposed expo. Terrans drop harass in brood war all game, it is NOT nullified by mutas or overlord placement. WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA... wait a second... "MICRO banelings against YOUR marines..." That doesn't sound right at all.. If T looks away from his marines for just a second to try to do a drop against banelings we all know what is going to happen to those marines.. Terran anti air is horribad without the marines which is the most fragile and core unit terran has in their army. Once the marines are gone tanks are picked off by mutas and lings easily and the entire army just falls apart. When terran loses their mech its pretty much game over, it takes forever to replenish mech so all zerg really ahs to do is kill that big push terran does and its over in the late game. I can have all the minerals in the world and never have the gas to afford to replace my units other than marines which die pretty quickly to a lot of things in the late game especially on a bigger map.. People need to stop whining about OC because really what limits terran the most is their gas. So harassing the gas is actually well worth it more than mineral lines. User was warned for this post
I hate it when low tier players try to describe the game, when truly you have no idea what you are talking about. banelings off creep against a player above average can tank/marine push you all day and theres nothing you can do about it.
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An above average Zerg will use mutas to pick tanks off and just roll over T while he splits his marines
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On January 24 2011 15:57 DaemonX wrote:
The point many people in this thread are missing is that 'current results' are not reliable for extrapolation to the new maps.
The reason T loses so many games proportionally on cross positions Meta/LT is that the current metagame does not emphasise that brand of terran style.
I am not saying I know what will happen on the larger maps - noone does. Terran may lose badly, maybe because of the very reasons people are saying. And they may not. But the reasons they lose currently are because large-scale macro is a more difficult and complex part of the game, and it is one which is not well understood yet - yes, even at the top levels.
The opinions of the top pros change wildly every season of GSL, and they are right for the time they are playing in. They will be wrong 1 year from now, unless the next true Bonjwa from 2013 borrows a time machine.
This isn't a secret - 4WG was unstoppable and needed nerfs two months ago. Now it's just something accessible for starting protoss to cut their teeth with the race on. But imagine what a current 2-base 6-gate all-in would have done to the same zergs qqing then? 4WG used to crush me, but now I handle it with ease, and I can do it even without roaches. 6-pool was debated to be OP only weeks prior, and sling/bling was the only way you could play ZvZ!
It is unfortunately more important to know how to all-in than it is to know how to manage 5 base macro in the current game state - at least if you want to win games. Sure the pros are better at macroing, and it's a pyramid of skill from bronze to S-class, but the base of the macro pyramid is very, very small currently. The pros have to play on SoW and close-pos DeltaQ more than the 3 possible macro game map spawns in the entire 15 or so possible spawn combos currently in the pool. So of course they can't be good at it, relatively - they would be stupid to focus their training on what is currently a tiny portion of the tournament situation.
It won't always be this way.
Brood war meta game is macro the majority of games, and cheese/all-ins a the minority. But we have a long way to go before the game is as mature as BW, and I don't know if the next-gen big maps will be a step on that road.
I can say the game will change with bigger maps. I don't claim to know how.
You've hit the nail on the head as far as what I was trying to say in the OP in regards to current metagame vs future metagame. I do fully believe after playing on the new bigger maps that they are a very very large step in the 'right' direction as far as evolving the metagame.
I feel alot of terrans/players of all races see/play/theorycraft these maps and think they are broken because their current strategys dont work as well if at all, but the main theme behind my OP was that new strategys (that startlingly resemble alot of BW strategies) do work quite well, and maintain a much more entertaining balance of power.
When I was playing games on the largest of these maps, I would often beat higher ranked players on the ladder, 2800+ points, who would try and do a 2base timing attack all the way across the map, and then politely say something along the lines of "yeah these maps are way too big", but then I would lose to players ranked slightly lower than me who were doing very greedy, macro and harass strategies themselves. I think these new maps require a very different skillset than the one most players have developed for the blizzard maps, and im happy about it.
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On January 24 2011 17:16 kodas wrote:
An above average Zerg will use mutas to pick tanks off and just roll over T while he splits his marines
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Yes Muta's can kill tanks, but Marines melt Muta's. The point of Tank Marine is that Marines kill everything that can kill the tanks and the tanks can oneshot groups of banelings. It's up to the Terran to make a move by unsieging the tanks and that's when a Zerg has a chance to actually kill off the tank/marine ball. If you want to say a more skilled Zerg will kill off the ball then yes you're probably right, but that's how it should be. However none of this means that you can't just drop the base of the zerg during the time his Mutas are busing in the battle.
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On January 24 2011 08:56 NukeD wrote:
Can anyone plz give me a link to some vods on these maps, or youtube videos or whatever... Im trying to find some for 2 days now and havent managed :/ Thx in advance!
I really don't think there are any yet. if the custom map system were better I imagine we'd be seeing more along those lines by now
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On January 25 2011 07:40 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 08:56 NukeD wrote:
Can anyone plz give me a link to some vods on these maps, or youtube videos or whatever... Im trying to find some for 2 days now and havent managed :/ Thx in advance! I really don't think there are any yet. if the custom map system were better I imagine we'd be seeing more along those lines by now
All poeple wished chat channels. Now they are out and it doesn't matter when I do joining one for custom games it is almost empty. So if you like to play or see games on these maps, join channels like "Custom Games" or "MotM".
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EPT
