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GSL map switch concerns - Page 6

Forum Index > SC2 General
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ROOTheognis
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States4482 Posts
January 10 2011 07:46 GMT
#101
They need to implement unbuildable terrain like in the old brood war map Luna.

would help alot with proxy pylons.
If you avoid your weakness, it will remain your weakness. www.twitter.com/#!/rootheognis Follow me!
PatouPower
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1119 Posts
January 10 2011 08:02 GMT
#102
On January 10 2011 07:38 link0 wrote:
The bigger the map, the more likely Protoss will win because warp-gates ignore the defender's advantage.


What are these statements even doing on teamliquid? Seriously? You can find advantages for every fucking race in great maps. For example, mutas are great because they are fast and can harrass before the enemy can get to your base. Also, you have more time to set up your economy as a zerg. Also, having faster ground army like speedlings or roaches is really useful on big maps.

Terran drops or banshee harrass are great for the same reasons. For protoss, phoenixes can harrass, as well as warp prisms.

Posts like this are going to kill SC2. If you want to post trash, SC2 forums are around the corner...
BeWat3r
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany182 Posts
January 10 2011 08:05 GMT
#103
PatouPower has the point. With bigger maps we the gametype will change. I hope terrans will get more into the makro mode and we will have longer and better games.
Writer and moderator for TaKeTV.net
mangsky
Profile Joined September 2010
51 Posts
January 10 2011 08:09 GMT
#104
On January 10 2011 08:57 Piski wrote:
How in the hell you changed this thread to be about balance. The OP made a legitamate concern that has nothing to do with balance but somehow people just managed to derail this quickly.

I think this should be talked about and I really hope blizzard is rethinking their maps. Best thing that could happen is that these GSL maps would be included into the ladder map pool and the removed maps removed.


lol that is so true, most of the talk is about balance nowadays :p
Paradice
Profile Joined October 2010
New Zealand431 Posts
January 10 2011 08:20 GMT
#105
While I can totally understand why blizz need simple maps in the pool for new players, they also need to support those *looking* to step up, which will be really hard if tournament maps aren't in the ladder.

Solution: diamond and master league games get these maps on the ladder, but they get auto-downvoted for lower leagues.
shannn
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands2891 Posts
January 10 2011 08:29 GMT
#106
On January 10 2011 07:10 uberdeluxe wrote:
So we all know that some ladder maps have terrible imbalances, that's just a fact. GSL decided to do something about this and implement new custom maps they created( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182734 )

I think all of us are wondering "what will Blizzard do?" These maps are publicly available for anyone to play on, but for players to continue to ladder, we will have to keep playing on all the blizzard ladder maps until Blizzard changes them. If they don't, it could be pretty terrible for blizzard hosted tournaments, since how people are invited is based off of their laddering points, which might force pros to play on outdated and poorly made maps.

I had checked the blizzard site to see if there was an appropriate way to ask about this in the contact section, but there was only places to send mail for policy questions and bugs. So, my dear gamers, is what do you think blizz will do about the ladder maps, and do you think that playing on the ladder may be completely extinct among pros in the future?

*edit* accidentally put this in strategy... can a mod move it?

GSL possibly (or will) use new maps. You are concerned that another tournament will use different maps which the majority here will not even be able to qualify for / attend.

But to answer your question. Blizzard has used non blizzard made maps for their tournaments before (blizzcon 08? Match point or FS I think just out of my head). I don't see a reason not to use GSL maps for them.

But even if they don't use GSL maps pro gamers can still practice on them on ladder or in customs.
Although they wouldn't been able to optimally play on it because of time or lack of competition or something in comparison to GSL.

So in summary I don't see the problem when Blizzard decides not to use GSL maps.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6321864 Epic post.
Befree
Profile Joined April 2010
695 Posts
January 10 2011 08:35 GMT
#107
I think we're completely overestimating the difficulty of these maps.

A rough analysis of the start location to start location distance (cross positions if more than one):

Clocked my SCV with the in game clock at about
Tal'Darim Altar ~1:10
Terminus ~1:05
Aiur Garden ~1:03
Biohazard ~0:58
Crossfire ~0:55

as opposed to

Shakuras ~1:05
Scrap Station ~1:00
Steppes ~0:45

My timings aren't done with an exact method but the idea is that the times are still similar. Early game play that you may see in lower leagues should stay similar. It is not as if the rush distances were doubled or something significant.

The maps do not hinder early game play, what they do is stop hindering mid/late game play. Their more accessible expansions and greater area allow for taking and keeping bases easier. A map being good for pro players does not mean it has to be bad for average players.

Conclusion:
I feel I'm having trouble conveying my point with this mess but what I'm trying to say is that it is not that these maps discourage one base play, it is that they no longer discourage macro oriented (which the current ladder map pool does). So because of this, lower league should so no real negative effect or change from using these maps, while pro level will see positive effects. Therefore I believe it is completely realistic for Blizzard to implement these maps into the map pool of all leagues without there being any harm to any league.
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
January 10 2011 08:42 GMT
#108
Blizzard should have map makers , and change the ladder maps every 1 or 2 months. Just like Kespa does with proleague and every GSL should have a set of old maps plus some new ones.
MavercK
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia2181 Posts
January 10 2011 08:54 GMT
#109
On January 10 2011 16:46 YoiChiBow wrote:
They need to implement unbuildable terrain like in the old brood war map Luna.

would help alot with proxy pylons.


this is super easy to do. im actually suprised they havn't already.
Brood War Remake - SC2BW - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145316
haflo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
140 Posts
January 10 2011 09:02 GMT
#110
as been said before simple solution will be bigger map pool .
with some big macro maps catered to pros.

combine this with more down veto options and a default setup for n00bs to downrate the bigger macro games , and you will have enough varity to support all users and i think enhance the fun of everyone.
Frankon
Profile Joined May 2010
3054 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-10 09:10:25
January 10 2011 09:07 GMT
#111
well the ladder is focused on quick games for casual gamers. Dont think we will see some ultra macro maps in it soon

As someone already mention. Best solution would be diffrent map pool for difrent ranks...
Small fast maps for bronze... and good tournaments maps for diamond
Seki Santoku
Profile Joined July 2010
United States105 Posts
January 10 2011 09:09 GMT
#112
On January 10 2011 07:47 link0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2011 07:40 monitor wrote:
On January 10 2011 07:38 link0 wrote:
The bigger the map, the more likely Protoss will win because warp-gates ignore the defender's advantage.


Protoss has warp gates, but Zerg has the advantage of expanding and rebuilding their army MUCH faster from larvae.

Overall, I feel like Terran is at a loss.


Of course Zerg > Terran in larger maps. But Protoss benefits even more than zerg from map size.

Medivacs? banshees? hellions harass? terrans can get around just fine aswell as being able to take safer 3rd,4th, and 5th bases.
"LiquidNony fighting"
Maskedsatyr
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore1245 Posts
January 10 2011 09:20 GMT
#113
Personally I think Blizzard would and should not have any problems implementing user made maps into the ladder. If we can learn anything from the past it is that the community knows what the community needs to most. BW and the various custom maps on BW and wc3 have shown this. I would even attribute the success of iPhone to this.
"Don't believe in you who believes in me, don't believe in me who believes in you, believe in you...who believes in yourself!"
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
January 10 2011 09:48 GMT
#114
greater maps work for terran when there are cluster expansions and not really alot of ways to pass their armys. Atleast this is what shakuras showed me. The problem for terrans is that they cannot harass a zerg anymore. Creep gives vision and mutas are faster then any of their units and can easily intercept anything except of a marine group hehe. But unless this one broodlord infestor thingie i saw terran can do pretty well without harassment and mutas won't survive the whole game.
And i think terrans will probably get a speed upgrade for either hellion or the reaper one will be buffed so i won't worry or mutas slower. (am allowed to hope)

just a random throw in you can put up rocks at the third to prevent the zerg from taking it fast without any army, to balance out larger maps, and if the map unfavors a zerg you can simply remove the rocks to make it more even.
Disastorm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States922 Posts
January 10 2011 09:49 GMT
#115
On January 10 2011 14:19 synapse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2011 14:14 MichaelJLowell wrote:
I may have posted this in another thread, but I'm still confused as to why Blizzard believes larger maps would detract from the Starcraft II experience for newer players. I thought the newbie player's impression of real-time strategy was "FUCK YEAH MOTHERSHIPS"? Wouldn't larger maps lend themselves to that?

Well, half that and half "FUCK YEAH CANNON RUSH!"

I disagree, I think the majority of newbies hate cheeses and cannon rushes, they only do it because thats the best way for them to win BECAUSE the maps are small. If Blizzard believes larger maps would detract from newbies, they are completely wrong.
"Don't worry so much man. There won't be any more zergs left to QQ. Lots of QQ about TvT is incoming though I bet." - Vrok 9/21/10
Hobokinz
Profile Joined October 2010
United States126 Posts
January 10 2011 09:54 GMT
#116
On January 10 2011 18:49 Disastorm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2011 14:19 synapse wrote:
On January 10 2011 14:14 MichaelJLowell wrote:
I may have posted this in another thread, but I'm still confused as to why Blizzard believes larger maps would detract from the Starcraft II experience for newer players. I thought the newbie player's impression of real-time strategy was "FUCK YEAH MOTHERSHIPS"? Wouldn't larger maps lend themselves to that?

Well, half that and half "FUCK YEAH CANNON RUSH!"

I disagree, I think the majority of newbies hate cheeses and cannon rushes, they only do it because thats the best way for them to win BECAUSE the maps are small. If Blizzard believes larger maps would detract from newbies, they are completely wrong.


I agree that newbes cheese less. I just got into Plat today and encountered my very first cannon rusher!
FarbrorAbavna
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden4856 Posts
January 10 2011 10:18 GMT
#117
On January 10 2011 17:35 Befree wrote:
I think we're completely overestimating the difficulty of these maps.

A rough analysis of the start location to start location distance (cross positions if more than one):

Clocked my SCV with the in game clock at about
Tal'Darim Altar ~1:10
Terminus ~1:05
Aiur Garden ~1:03
Biohazard ~0:58
Crossfire ~0:55

as opposed to

Shakuras ~1:05
Scrap Station ~1:00
Steppes ~0:45

My timings aren't done with an exact method but the idea is that the times are still similar. Early game play that you may see in lower leagues should stay similar. It is not as if the rush distances were doubled or something significant.

The maps do not hinder early game play, what they do is stop hindering mid/late game play. Their more accessible expansions and greater area allow for taking and keeping bases easier. A map being good for pro players does not mean it has to be bad for average players.

Conclusion:
I feel I'm having trouble conveying my point with this mess but what I'm trying to say is that it is not that these maps discourage one base play, it is that they no longer discourage macro oriented (which the current ladder map pool does). So because of this, lower league should so no real negative effect or change from using these maps, while pro level will see positive effects. Therefore I believe it is completely realistic for Blizzard to implement these maps into the map pool of all leagues without there being any harm to any league.


Thank you for the research on travel time, havent had the time to do it myself. much appreciated.
Do you really want chat rooms?
FlamingTurd
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1059 Posts
January 10 2011 10:28 GMT
#118
Personally I can't wait to see them switch the maps and see officially which they will be.
Nerf MMMT!!! Liquid`Ret Hwaiting!!!
Deckkie
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands1595 Posts
January 10 2011 10:59 GMT
#119
everybody is saying that only the higher leagues should get new maps. i dont like this idea, not only does it discriminate against some of the lower league players but if someone gets good enough to go to lets say platinum and suddenly has a totally different map pool he will surrely be punshed back in to gold in no time.
Always look on the bright side of life
(Mist)
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada72 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-10 12:37:47
January 10 2011 11:04 GMT
#120
It will just end up to be like bw, so clam down. People will have to learn alot of different maps, not just the blizzards ladder map pool.
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