EPTBlizzard and the All-In - Page 7
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Rodiel
France573 Posts
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
I think it's Blizzard's job to fix this, because it leads to a pretty stale gameplay. Generally bigger maps would fix it though - but we do want all-ins to be a possibility don't we. Thing is all-ins are pretty fool proof, all-ins were kind of tricky to pull off in BW and were still pretty awesome.. Hrmm... | ||
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diesirae
United States37 Posts
- A game of all ins is not very entertaining to watch. Don't state your opinion as a fact. I happen to find all-ins, and cheese especially, the best games to watch. I'll never understand why people get hard off watching macro for 45 hours before they start fighting. | ||
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KingDime
Canada750 Posts
I think players will become more adept at dealing with the high pressure early game builds but it'll take time. New, unseen strats do not come up everyday, but as sc2 is relatively new i'll give the players the benefit that new strats/builds will throw players off. If this trend does continue though for lets say 6 months (random time frame), then i'll begin to question the gameplay. Short, 5-10 minute games where a well microed push beats the opponent feels very lacking gameplay wise. One of the most enjoyable experiences I get out of this game is simply watching a lategame terran constantly pressure the opponent all over the map. I may hate it in game when I lose, but from a spectator's viewpoint it's awesome to behold. | ||
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
On December 11 2010 11:35 diesirae wrote: Don't state your opinion as a fact. I happen to find all-ins, and cheese especially, the best games to watch. I'll never understand why people get hard off watching macro for 45 hours before they start fighting. Because watching that 3rax all-in for the millionth billionth time is all that awesome? Watching a terran beat down a hatch first zerg with blind 2rax is not very entertaining, especially when it's the 5th time in the same tournament.. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Long macro games can also be very intense, but all-ins can definitely be interesting too. I don't think I need to explain why xD Cheese can also be very lulzy, but cool to watch. And it can make things feel so dramatic for the players. | ||
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ccdnl
United States611 Posts
On December 11 2010 07:01 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: First of all, all-ins have been (and will continue to be) part of EVERY strategy game. Big risks will sometimes yield big rewards, and both players need to accept their role within this mindset and play accordingly. The obsession with macro has led to an inordinate amount of hatred for any form aggressive play off one base, regardless of whether or not it's the best way to punish eco-hungry players. People equating expansions and mass unit production with skill are completely off base. The game has shown to be remarkably balanced in the early game with some small, map enabled discrepancies. Leave it be. Yes but this GSL is perfect proof that this concept isnt Big Risk. It's more like Sure thing for Big reward. Many things play into this--map/balance/skill levels. | ||
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Balor
United States147 Posts
Its not even fun to play anymore for me, it must be 1/10 games that I actually get past tier1-2, and those are games where Trushed for banshees. imo, warp in should be delayed. currently its the first protoss tech and it allows for instant reinforcement... something that greatly improves the cheese. queens air attack should be more powerful so VR's / banshees are used more for harass and map control then winning games. Its currently impossible for a zerg to punish a 2 starport > FE build. | ||
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BritishBeef
United Kingdom372 Posts
Well k20 its like this, If you know its coming you should <-- be able to hold it off with the amount of time and preperation you have, but DUE to the fact that the stratergy is so strong it will still beat you, and then THE worst part isn't even holding off the rush, its that afterwards the terran has a poential of like 3/4/5 difffrent choices in which you WILL not scout if the terran does his job properly (Refrence to ret saying the same thing) he can continue to 2 rax you make marines or.. Stop making marines and put down a CC he could just keep making marines and take his two gases and preassure with marines into banshee's he could just go hellions to combat the absurd amount of lings you HAVE to make regardless if you don't scout a gas you know hes probly going 2 rax so you have to make many many many zergling even if he decides oh i wont go 2rax ill just go 1rax cc and hide the command center. I personally want them to keep it this way for the moment see how things play out, but im not convinced yet. | ||
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jimmydu444
Canada250 Posts
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majestouch
United States395 Posts
microed properly higher numbers = exponentially better etc However, they can be trash if one or more of these conditions stated above are not met-- this was not the case in BW, yes they were good but not as good as they are now. I AM NOT SAYING TO NERF MARINES. I am simply pointing out how strong marines are such as with allins early game where 10 marines w/ 20scvs as meat shields. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 11 2010 11:39 Balor wrote: Nearly every game at 2600+ - including pro level is cheese. Its not even fun to play anymore for me, it must be 1/10 games that I actually get past tier1-2, and those are games where Trushed for banshees. imo, warp in should be delayed. currently its the first protoss tech and it allows for instant reinforcement... something that greatly improves the cheese. queens air attack should be more powerful so VR's / banshees are used more for harass and map control then winning games. Its currently impossible for a zerg to punish a 2 starport > FE build. It's not just the warp-in anywhere that promotes Protoss cheese/massive pushes, it's the ability for protoss players to be safe while throwing down extra gateways over units due to FF and warp-in being front loaded production. This lets them quickly swell large numbers of gateway units immediately following Warp in completion and gives Protoss tons of potential timing attacks (6 gate, 3 gate stargate, 4 gate, 2 gate, 2 gate stalker) from warp gates. Queens vs Banshees/VRs is fine though. You shouldn't be able to rely entirely on queens for air defense, which is exactly how it is balanced right now. You use them vs non-committal air pressure, but if the T or P is focusing heavily on air you will need an actual anti-air unit. | ||
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tieya
United States308 Posts
On December 11 2010 11:39 Balor wrote: Nearly every game at 2600+ - including pro level is cheese. Its not even fun to play anymore for me, it must be 1/10 games that I actually get past tier1-2, and those are games where Trushed for banshees. imo, warp in should be delayed. currently its the first protoss tech and it allows for instant reinforcement... something that greatly improves the cheese. queens air attack should be more powerful so VR's / banshees are used more for harass and map control then winning games. Its currently impossible for a zerg to punish a 2 starport > FE build. This is why you have to play custom games with partners. But then you do that, and you aren't as good against the cheeses. It really is quite weird / boring to play right now. | ||
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
On December 11 2010 11:31 Rodiel wrote: Bigger map plz, seriously i think u can make walk all the map in 5s, no enough positional play Agreed. I think the main problem is most definitely the maps. If we simply have bigger maps ( much like the bigger, custom made competitive maps in Sc1) I think what we'll see is a HUGE decline in all-in plays. EDIT: I actually read past the first two pages, found a good post. On December 11 2010 08:51 Mooncat wrote: In my opinion the biggest problem are the maps. Most of them really do their best to keep you from expanding with rocks, debris, positioning and whatnot. Maps have an unbelievably huge impact on the game. You're way more likely to see a long macro game on Metalopolis cross positions than you are on Steppes of War obviously. So yeah... I think it's Blizzard's responsibility to do something in that regard by rethinking their map pool and changing from showing off their cool new features(gold expos, watch towers, rocks/debris, etc.) to something that allows for longer, more macro oriented games(longer distances, no rocks, no gold expos, adding some map features that become very interesting in the late game, etc.) | ||
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HiHiByeBye
Canada365 Posts
Honestly Protoss just all in as much as terran in the GSL. 3 WG VR , 4 WG, When you are cutting probes hard, it is quite hard to recover. EDIT: I agree with big maps but warp ins can deal with that. also Big maps are nice but not maps with easy to sercure 3rds unless the 3rd is mineral only. Because then we just see zerg tech switiching every second and there is no way for P or T to keep up | ||
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WarSong
Canada126 Posts
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jdreamer
Australia296 Posts
I am fine with the status quo. If you scout an allins earlier and have better micro, I believe that you will hold it off and once you do so, you're basically way ahead your opponent. I'm not a pro but that's my opinion. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 11 2010 12:09 jdreamer wrote: Allins or not, I seriously prefer those micro intense game instead of macro macro and wait for your opponents to blunder and slip in either macro or position. BoxeR did a lot of allins with crazy micro yet people worship him like god and being crowned the Terran Emperor so why can't the others do the same? Selective vision? I don't know. I am fine with the status quo. If you scout an allins earlier and have better micro, I believe that you will hold it off and once you do so, you're basically way ahead your opponent. I'm not a pro but that's my opinion. People don't treat it the same because of frequency. Right now at the top it seems like there's two major styles... the player who likes to go all-in and the player who likes to defend the all-in then counter. It's much more interesting when you can have players who favor drops, those that favor pushes, those that like harass, those that prefer to defend and macro, and those that like to do crazy committal attacks. I think most people find some of the GSL players to be really brilliant or amazing, but the frequency of the short games wears thin on them. Though I do wonder how much of it with the GSL is due to the format. Players have time to plan and find weaknesses in their opponents play, then exploit those weaknesses with all-ins or committed attacks. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
I usually don't say that. Like I don't think balance issues are a map problem, there are obvious balance issues that exist on every map. Nor do I want every map to be the same damn thing as lost temple w/o cliffs. But i don't really think the maps are blizzard's fault. I don't know why tournaments aren't using redone ICCup maps by this point, if not making their own maps. Blizzard even recommended (and planned) that they would make their own maps. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On December 11 2010 06:43 Jermstuddog wrote: How about the fact that all-in play makes 90% of their game unnecessary. As good designers, Blizzard should want their entire game to be viable. Couldn't have said it better myself. You never saw these worker conga line all-ins in BW (rarely). At this rate the game needs a serious overhaul and redesign. Its not enjoyable to watch at all, nor is it really fun to play. On December 11 2010 12:09 jdreamer wrote: Allins or not, I seriously prefer those micro intense game instead of macro macro and wait for your opponents to blunder and slip in either macro or position. BoxeR did a lot of allins with crazy micro yet people worship him like god and being crowned the Terran Emperor so why can't the others do the same? Selective vision? I don't know. I am fine with the status quo. If you scout an allins earlier and have better micro, I believe that you will hold it off and once you do so, you're basically way ahead your opponent. I'm not a pro but that's my opinion. There's a huge difference in the games though. Boxer's All-In micro intense styles stood out beside he was like a needle in a haystack. He was doing something so unorthodox, with such skill that it blew everyone's minds. Boxer made you doubt all you knew about Starcraft. SC2 All-inning is a regular strategy... nobody is being biased. It's like if EVERYBODY All-inned in SC2 and one person rose out and won as a macro legend, he would be the Boxer of sc2(except macro instead of micro, you get my point). | ||
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