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Blizzard and the All-In - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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FrostedMiniWeet
Profile Joined July 2009
United States636 Posts
December 10 2010 22:38 GMT
#41
If you absolutely know that your opponent is going to do a particular all-in, you should be able to easily counter it with a counter-build imo. If you know it is coming, and there doesn't appear to be an effective way of stopping it, then I think it needs to be nerfed. I think this is the case mostly for Terran SCV all-ins, as other all-ins are powerful mostly because they catch the opponent off guard. As Idra said, I think they ought to improve the scoutability of each race. I really like the protoss observer buff in 1.2, and I think that is going in the right direction, but I would like to see something similar for Zerg, and possibly even Terran.
mati
Profile Joined October 2010
Argentina114 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-10 22:41:37
December 10 2010 22:40 GMT
#42
On December 11 2010 07:16 lowercase wrote:
I made a thread about this a while ago and it died.

I wasn't necessarily thinking about cheese, I was thinking of complete play styles. My concern was that we weren't seeing any Protoss builds other than Colossus/Stalker, and 'Toss was getting hammered on the ladders and in competition.

This GSL though, we have seen 3 protoss in the final 8, despite having only 12 in the round of 64! And, I was thrilled to notice, no-one is relying on colossus/stalker anymore. I am just thrilled this GSL, despite the lack of many really epic series (except Clide/Leenock).

I believe Blizzard has a duty to patch the game not only for balance, but for interest. Expansions also serve this purpose. But I really think we need to look at the history of Brood War, and see how it changed over time once it was in its "final" patched form.

The "Bisu build" forge FE revolutionized PvZ, even as that match was stagnating. In SC2, we have MarineKing showcasing the power of those basic units, as well as HongUn and MC showing us how to incorporate stargates into Protoss play, without simply void-ray rushing (these builds are much more sophisticated than any gold-level play like that). Fruitdealer in GSL 1 showed us how to deal with reaper harass and cliff drops - even before reapers and medivacs got nerfed.

One thing I think Blizz could really do to "revitalize" the game is to make top-tier tech actually worthwhile. For battlecruisers, carriers, and... whatever top tier stuff zerg has they never use (most zergs do end up using all their units in the long run anyway... maybe they need more units) to be actually useful, there needs to be a real benefit to tech to it - that is, the advantage of teching to a certain mineral/gas value of high tech units must be greater than an equivalent mineral/gas value of lower tech units, or there is no point in getting them. See how terran goes mass bio, with maybe a few thors or tanks, despite zerg and protoss both having good anti-bio options (antibiotics?), e.g.: colossi, HTs, banelings.

There also needs to be better static defenses for all three races. If we want epic games, and epic generally means long, there has to be more options for defense. Narrow chokes and high-ground advantage are one, but a very slight buff to defensive structures would be nice, plus a build-time increase to deter the offensive use of them!

Anyway, I digress,




Just quoting to state that i agree with everything you said sir!

Blizzard will do whatever they need to do to make this game a epic legend like BW was, because thats means LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of money for them, so you can bet they will keep working to make the game as entretained (or whatever is typer, sry for my crappy english) possible...

BUT!!, by the other hand, we cannot just expect to sit while someone else does all the works for us... The development of strategies, ideas, excecutions, etc is also very very important, and is crucial for us to get more and more cool epic games. Renember fruidealer on GSL1... When zerg was the laugh race that nobody hope to win anything at all...


Yes we can blame blizzard for the all ins, but we first must blame the players... Both the one who made the attack, and the one who doesnt seem to know how to defend
Krigwin
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1130 Posts
December 10 2010 22:41 GMT
#43
If the game ever reaches a point where everyone is just abusing all-in strategies and all games are 10 minutes long, then Blizzard has to step in and address it, whether through indirect nerfs to all-in strats, or map changes (my preference), or whatever.

Not because repeated all-ins are not fun to watch, not because they're one-dimensional and strategically shallow, not because they're bad for esports, but because if it ever gets to that point, then there is something wrong on a fundamental balance level with the game and as its creator, Blizzard has an obligation to fix it.

It would be the same thing if every Z 6pooled, or every P cannon rushed, or whatever. If things ever get to a point where everyone is using the same strategy to win, then clearly something is wrong with the game. Either that strategy is too strong, or other strategies are too weak.

I personally believe SCV all-ins are too strong compared to the all-ins of other races because T can freely trade workers and come out ahead due to MULEs, and because marines and SCVs synergize better than any combination of other races' units + workers.
BritishBeef
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom372 Posts
December 10 2010 22:41 GMT
#44
Well to be fair i think its a joke how UNREAL hard it is to hold off when some motherfucker is bringing all but 3 scv and using mule abuse.
I am all for blizzard leaving this game for a long peroid of time if you thinkabout it logically some would argue that starcraft 1 isn't balanced and that it was done due to the maps... Even now we are having a evolution in the pvz in starcraft 1 10+ years after it was released.. But i do think its a bit bullshit how i can get roflstomped by a lower player because i haven't played 20000 games against 2rax and if you miss a bunker game over.

Toxiferous
Profile Joined June 2009
United States388 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-10 22:42:03
December 10 2010 22:41 GMT
#45
The game will balance out itself, seeing solid play like Jinros TvZ in GSL was just a taste of whats to come, I think

Standardized play will eventually work out the kinks, or at the very least its too soon to tell if it wont
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
December 10 2010 22:45 GMT
#46
On December 11 2010 06:43 Jermstuddog wrote:
How about the fact that all-in play makes 90% of their game unnecessary. As good designers, Blizzard should want their entire game to be viable.

This is a good way to put it.

Blizzard would want all-ins to be possible, but risky. I'm sure they would want more macro-oriented (or as macro-oriented as you can get with sc2...) play to be viable and probably the norm, however.
Hello
HalfAmazing
Profile Joined May 2008
Netherlands402 Posts
December 10 2010 22:51 GMT
#47
All-ins are for noobs, and there is no satisfaction in winning with one. Oh you hid your 3 warpgates on the other side of the map? Yeah, you're really clever! Unfortunately this appears to be the only reason why we aren't seeing them used every game. Players having self respect.
You can figure out the other half.
Hypatio
Profile Joined September 2010
549 Posts
December 10 2010 22:52 GMT
#48
I think making ovie speed a T1 research, making spawn larva/mule/chrono boost require a T1.5 research, and doing SOMETHING with the fact that spine crawlers take forever to build/root would go a long way to improving early game mechanics.

Also, I think it is pretty stupid that there is virtually no situation wherein which gateway builds (no warpgate research) are universally unviable past 5 minutes.
goldenwitch
Profile Joined August 2010
United States338 Posts
December 10 2010 22:52 GMT
#49
On December 11 2010 07:41 Toxiferous wrote:
The game will balance out itself, seeing solid play like Jinros TvZ in GSL was just a taste of whats to come, I think

Standardized play will eventually work out the kinks, or at the very least its too soon to tell if it wont


I think that's a bad example because ... + Show Spoiler +
Jinro proceeded to lose in several fast games to one and two base pushes by mc. Most of those pushes weren't even all in and jinro had an almost impossible time defending them.
FreedomPeacer
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada67 Posts
December 10 2010 22:53 GMT
#50
the idea of "blizzard's responsibilities" kind of makes me laugh, but responsiblities or not, its in blizzard's interests to make this game as entertaining to watch as possible
Bond(i2)
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada926 Posts
December 10 2010 22:56 GMT
#51
I feel like 100% accuracy vs units on cliffs really take the defenders advantage away. Maybe if they reverted it back o the way it was in bw we'd see less agression.

User was warned for this post
roses are red violets are blue, Im schitzophrenic and so am i
Hypatio
Profile Joined September 2010
549 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-10 23:00:02
December 10 2010 22:57 GMT
#52
I think the root of the problem simply cannot be solved until HOTS or later simply because the fundamentals of protoss are more bland than terran, and zerg is just absurdly one-dimensional. SC2 is WAY more predictable than it should be, especially at T1. More units/abilities and general race capabilities need to be implemented, IMO.
HalfAmazing
Profile Joined May 2008
Netherlands402 Posts
December 10 2010 22:59 GMT
#53
All-ins are for noobs, and there is no satisfaction in winning with one. Oh you hid your 3 warpgates on the other side of the map? Yeah, you're really clever! Unfortunately this appears to be the only reason why we aren't seeing them used every game. Players having self respect.
You can figure out the other half.
LunarC
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1186 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-10 23:02:22
December 10 2010 22:59 GMT
#54
What I think is that all-ins and cheese should incur significant economic penalties to the player that fails to win or do enough damage with them.

I think the way the macro mechanics are designed is mostly to blame, as it allow players to be sloppy but still catch up on worker production (Or just drop a MULE or two to compensate for the lack of SCV).

Another problem is that certain rushes or all-ins ends the game rather than simply doing damage. This potential should be kept to a minimum.
REEBUH!!!
Lonyo
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United Kingdom3884 Posts
December 10 2010 23:00 GMT
#55
MAPSMAPSMAPSMAPSMAPSMAPSMAPSMAPS

User was warned for this post
HOLY CHECK!
us.insurgency
Profile Joined March 2010
United States330 Posts
December 10 2010 23:00 GMT
#56
There is no need to change the balance of the game. They just need to make bigger maps.
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
December 10 2010 23:03 GMT
#57
This thread really needs a title change to show that its not blizzards opinion

cheese/all-ins should be equally viable on all three races and able to defeat extremely greedy economical openings
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
udgnim
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8024 Posts
December 10 2010 23:03 GMT
#58
I don't mind all ins and do think they have a place in SC2, but in SC2's current state, I do not think there is enough risk involved with certain all ins.

the risk of an all in should be that if a person scouts it in time or just blindly expects it, the person should be able to defend and crush the all in. with an all in like the 2 rax marine/SCV all in that simply isn't the case right now and its outcome is more of a coinflip situation.
E-Sports is competitive video gaming with a spectator fan base. Do not take the word "Sports" literally.
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-10 23:07:36
December 10 2010 23:04 GMT
#59
On December 11 2010 07:56 Bond(i2) wrote:
I feel like 100% accuracy vs units on cliffs really take the defenders advantage away. Maybe if they reverted it back o the way it was in bw we'd see less agression.

User was warned for this post


i agree. i still find that awkward.

lowering accuracy for shooting up a cliff and hitting units hiding behind doodad should be implemented.

one question, how are people defining all-in?
i'm assuming this is becoming a popular topic in regards to mc vs jinro. from what i've seen, i did not see a game with an all-in strategy. rain vs hongun yes.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
JTouche
Profile Joined August 2010
United States239 Posts
December 10 2010 23:09 GMT
#60
In my opinion All-In Strategies are not going to warrant any rebalancing for the game. All In's are frustrating, but if you react appropriately you can hold it off. There's no All In that is undefeatable. All In's are a legitimate strategy. With a little bit of scouting and experience you will overcome the dreaded All-In.
Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. ~Eric Fromm
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