• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:34
CEST 14:34
KST 21:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)8Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over2New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!40Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles3
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2?
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! Which box art did your first copy of StarCraft 1 have? [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS [ASL22] Ro24 Group F Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stratus: Battle for the sky now on steam Early acc Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Call Us for QuickBooks Pay…
QBfinance
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3916 users

Perpetual balance

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 21:09:02
November 29 2010 21:05 GMT
#1
Not to start another balance thread (we have enough), but the issue I have here is in balancing itself. My key question is: does Blizzard have a responsibility to alter game mechanics to "revitalize" the game if it stagnates?

If one (or few) strategies truly become dominant, and, over time, a balance sets in, is Bliz obligated to stir up the pot to make things interesting again? People talk about "QQ" and "Learn to play," but it's obvious that even small changes to the game mechanics enormously change the viability of certain strategies. For instance, post-patch, I haven't seen many reapers around. Is this because people transitioned to better strategies? No, it's because they were made less effective due to some minor mechanical alterations, and now an effective strategy (reaper harass) is significantly less effective... so we're seeing a transition out of it.

The issue I have is of a not-so-hypothetical situation where a few strategies come to dominate. For example, let's say marine-marauder-medivac became so powerful in TvP that we never saw anything else - a dominant strategy. And let's say that colossus/stalker became the dominant strategy against it. Let's also say that, hypothetically, these strategies were perfectly balanced, such that the TvP win ratio between players both using these strategies was globally somewhere around 50%.

Over time, as this "sets in" and it becomes apparent there are few other builds with as good a probability of winning... is it time for a patch? Statistically, the game is perfectly balanced, but it's stale, boring, and predictable. It comes down to who has the best micro while executing these well-practised and statistically-favoured strategies.

My concern is this: that patching for "balance" is itself a Quixotic task. Ask yourself: why is balance important at all? Race attachment aside, balance is important so everyone doesn't all pick the same race in order to win. We like the diversity of having games that aren't chess-matches of identical sides, it's something unique to RTS play (especially Starcraft). The most important thing is that the game is diverse and "unbalanced" such that we can have games with many different strategies and the possibility of "swings" in favour. It's always awesome to see one player come back from a deficit to win.

So, should Blizzard make alterations to the game that incentivize diverse play, or is it more important that the win ratios all be identical?

EDIT: I should've called this thread "Perpetual Patching," as I don't really care about balance at all, though I do use the term.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 21:26:48
November 29 2010 21:23 GMT
#2
SC2 is a real time strategy game. If there exists a set of strategies dominant enough that no strategy outside that set can compete with any in that set, you remove an element of strategy - because you know the only case you need to consider is one or two strategies the opponent can execute. When the game comes down to execution of a couple of strategies, it ceases to be a strategy game. Sure, there is still a strategic aspect to it in positioning (much like there are strategic aspects to games like street fighter), but what truly defines a game as a strategy game is the ability for players to make informed decisions and for those decisions to affect the outcome of the game. At some point, in the game you describe (where dominant strategies are the only ones used), the game comes down only to who clicks the most accurately.

Edit: I guess my answer here is - I feel play should provide various options to succeed in order for the game to be correctly labelled a strategy game, but it doesn't have to fullfill that criteria to still be a very good game.

Also, Blizzard does not have an obligation to do anything to maintain balance. It's their game - if they want it to be ridiculously unbalanced, then they can do that (note that this is a big "if" - it's pretty balanced as is). But inherently they have a motivation to encourage diverse play - they spent design time on every unit and concept, so it's unfortunate if 75% of those units and game mechanics never see the light of day.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
November 29 2010 23:24 GMT
#3
Treehead has excellent points. I also think that part of what made Brood War so good wasn't the fact that it was so well balanced, but the fact that it was so well balanced and diverse. StarCraft has a huge edge on this already, because it has 3 different races.

What's more diverse? A game with 3 different races, all with their own mechanics, or a single race, maybe with minor tech modifications and unique units, ala Age of Empires? Answer: Clearly StarCraft.

What's more diverse? StarCraft with 1 or 2 dominant strategies for each race, or Age of Empires with 5 or 6 Tier 1 strategies? The answer here seems like it's even, but it's not. When you open Age of Empires, you know you will be facing one of 5 or 6 strategies, which also increases the amount of combinations you play against if you know several BO's but only one race, as is often the case in StarCraft.

Basically my point is, StarCraft's biggest advantages are A) It's balance and B) It's diversity. I think StarCraft II is superbly balanced for a game of it's age, and has heaps of diversity. However, should the situation lowercase described come to pass, it'll lose half it's appeal, and never be as fun as Brood War was. It'd also slow down or end the evolution of the game since you'd just get punished for deviation.

So yes, Blizzard must patch to ensure two things: balance and diversity, though balance must come first. If the game is unbalanced, diversity will suffer hugely. Balance between races and balance between strategy is essential to ensure this game is played for years to come.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
November 30 2010 00:39 GMT
#4
I personally think Blizz has a financial duty to keep the game interesting, or people will stop playing it and watching it. They will accomplish this easily with the expansions, but I think minor changes will still be put out to "refresh" the game as it gets old. They have already proven they will patch for diversity rather than balance, by nerfing VR, etc.

And what the hell is with the expansions by the way? I get the feeling they shipped Wings of Liberty as an incomplete game, holding back planned units for the expansions. I would've preferred a complete game and then had them actually add new stuff for the expansions.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
gotlucky
Profile Joined May 2010
United States60 Posts
November 30 2010 00:39 GMT
#5
Don't forget there will be two expansions. Even if Blizzard can somehow get a perfect balance, the zerg expansion will be out. And then they will have to balance that. And then the protoss expansion will be out.

I don't think you need to worry about too many patches.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Kung Fu Cup
11:00
2026 Week 21
IntoTheiNu 885
SteadfastSC178
TKL 151
Rex95
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko381
SteadfastSC 178
TKL 151
Rex 95
EnDerr 15
CosmosSc2 0
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1868
Shuttle 1795
Horang2 975
Jaedong 693
Hyuk 422
EffOrt 371
Mini 228
Stork 206
Light 184
Snow 152
[ Show more ]
ZerO 142
Rush 109
Zeus 106
Noble 94
Pusan 73
ToSsGirL 58
soO 35
Sexy 31
Aegong 16
sSak 15
sorry 15
SilentControl 14
Sacsri 13
Terrorterran 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
zelot 7
Icarus 6
Dota 2
qojqva738
Dendi697
syndereN2
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1257
zeus426
edward43
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu98
Other Games
singsing1818
Livibee552
hiko377
B2W.Neo347
DeMusliM243
Happy221
Liquid`LucifroN131
KnowMe94
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 1330
lovetv 5
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH354
• StrangeGG 55
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 17
• Light_VIP 12
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1618
• TFBlade592
Other Games
• WagamamaTV240
Upcoming Events
RotterdaM Event
3h 41m
Replay Cast
11h 26m
The PondCast
21h 26m
OSC
1d 9h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 22h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
OSC
3 days
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
4 days
Mixu vs TBD
Spirit vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Soma vs Shuttle
BeSt vs Rush
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
GSL
5 days
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Special KOR vs CHN
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.