• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:28
CEST 06:28
KST 13:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-63PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)8Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE15Weekly Cups (July 20-26): Early returns on 5.0.16b8IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly5
StarCraft 2
General
Life's Huge Gambling Spree After IEM Katowice 2014 Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 1/8 Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard"
Tourneys
INu's Battles#19 2-Days Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-6 PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion Making an Online Broodwar Manager Game BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion BW Drama: Terror's Debt Incident + C9 disbanding
Tourneys
2v2v2v2 Tournament Escore Tournament - Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation PvT advise for noobs
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The Scarlett Fan Club The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
What is a Gamer?
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3618 users

Perpetual balance

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 21:09:02
November 29 2010 21:05 GMT
#1
Not to start another balance thread (we have enough), but the issue I have here is in balancing itself. My key question is: does Blizzard have a responsibility to alter game mechanics to "revitalize" the game if it stagnates?

If one (or few) strategies truly become dominant, and, over time, a balance sets in, is Bliz obligated to stir up the pot to make things interesting again? People talk about "QQ" and "Learn to play," but it's obvious that even small changes to the game mechanics enormously change the viability of certain strategies. For instance, post-patch, I haven't seen many reapers around. Is this because people transitioned to better strategies? No, it's because they were made less effective due to some minor mechanical alterations, and now an effective strategy (reaper harass) is significantly less effective... so we're seeing a transition out of it.

The issue I have is of a not-so-hypothetical situation where a few strategies come to dominate. For example, let's say marine-marauder-medivac became so powerful in TvP that we never saw anything else - a dominant strategy. And let's say that colossus/stalker became the dominant strategy against it. Let's also say that, hypothetically, these strategies were perfectly balanced, such that the TvP win ratio between players both using these strategies was globally somewhere around 50%.

Over time, as this "sets in" and it becomes apparent there are few other builds with as good a probability of winning... is it time for a patch? Statistically, the game is perfectly balanced, but it's stale, boring, and predictable. It comes down to who has the best micro while executing these well-practised and statistically-favoured strategies.

My concern is this: that patching for "balance" is itself a Quixotic task. Ask yourself: why is balance important at all? Race attachment aside, balance is important so everyone doesn't all pick the same race in order to win. We like the diversity of having games that aren't chess-matches of identical sides, it's something unique to RTS play (especially Starcraft). The most important thing is that the game is diverse and "unbalanced" such that we can have games with many different strategies and the possibility of "swings" in favour. It's always awesome to see one player come back from a deficit to win.

So, should Blizzard make alterations to the game that incentivize diverse play, or is it more important that the win ratios all be identical?

EDIT: I should've called this thread "Perpetual Patching," as I don't really care about balance at all, though I do use the term.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 21:26:48
November 29 2010 21:23 GMT
#2
SC2 is a real time strategy game. If there exists a set of strategies dominant enough that no strategy outside that set can compete with any in that set, you remove an element of strategy - because you know the only case you need to consider is one or two strategies the opponent can execute. When the game comes down to execution of a couple of strategies, it ceases to be a strategy game. Sure, there is still a strategic aspect to it in positioning (much like there are strategic aspects to games like street fighter), but what truly defines a game as a strategy game is the ability for players to make informed decisions and for those decisions to affect the outcome of the game. At some point, in the game you describe (where dominant strategies are the only ones used), the game comes down only to who clicks the most accurately.

Edit: I guess my answer here is - I feel play should provide various options to succeed in order for the game to be correctly labelled a strategy game, but it doesn't have to fullfill that criteria to still be a very good game.

Also, Blizzard does not have an obligation to do anything to maintain balance. It's their game - if they want it to be ridiculously unbalanced, then they can do that (note that this is a big "if" - it's pretty balanced as is). But inherently they have a motivation to encourage diverse play - they spent design time on every unit and concept, so it's unfortunate if 75% of those units and game mechanics never see the light of day.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
November 29 2010 23:24 GMT
#3
Treehead has excellent points. I also think that part of what made Brood War so good wasn't the fact that it was so well balanced, but the fact that it was so well balanced and diverse. StarCraft has a huge edge on this already, because it has 3 different races.

What's more diverse? A game with 3 different races, all with their own mechanics, or a single race, maybe with minor tech modifications and unique units, ala Age of Empires? Answer: Clearly StarCraft.

What's more diverse? StarCraft with 1 or 2 dominant strategies for each race, or Age of Empires with 5 or 6 Tier 1 strategies? The answer here seems like it's even, but it's not. When you open Age of Empires, you know you will be facing one of 5 or 6 strategies, which also increases the amount of combinations you play against if you know several BO's but only one race, as is often the case in StarCraft.

Basically my point is, StarCraft's biggest advantages are A) It's balance and B) It's diversity. I think StarCraft II is superbly balanced for a game of it's age, and has heaps of diversity. However, should the situation lowercase described come to pass, it'll lose half it's appeal, and never be as fun as Brood War was. It'd also slow down or end the evolution of the game since you'd just get punished for deviation.

So yes, Blizzard must patch to ensure two things: balance and diversity, though balance must come first. If the game is unbalanced, diversity will suffer hugely. Balance between races and balance between strategy is essential to ensure this game is played for years to come.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
November 30 2010 00:39 GMT
#4
I personally think Blizz has a financial duty to keep the game interesting, or people will stop playing it and watching it. They will accomplish this easily with the expansions, but I think minor changes will still be put out to "refresh" the game as it gets old. They have already proven they will patch for diversity rather than balance, by nerfing VR, etc.

And what the hell is with the expansions by the way? I get the feeling they shipped Wings of Liberty as an incomplete game, holding back planned units for the expansions. I would've preferred a complete game and then had them actually add new stuff for the expansions.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
gotlucky
Profile Joined May 2010
United States60 Posts
November 30 2010 00:39 GMT
#5
Don't forget there will be two expansions. Even if Blizzard can somehow get a perfect balance, the zerg expansion will be out. And then they will have to balance that. And then the protoss expansion will be out.

I don't think you need to worry about too many patches.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Afreeca Starleague
04:00
Qualifiers Day 2
Afreeca ASL 1669
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 11696
Bisu 3504
ggaemo 435
Pusan 146
Noble 46
Dewaltoss 21
Icarus 5
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm200
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 660
Counter-Strike
summit1g9560
Fnx 550
Super Smash Bros
amsayoshi36
Other Games
WinterStarcraft610
PiGStarcraft403
XaKoH 341
ViBE110
Mew2King79
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick860
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 93
Other Games
BasetradeTV51
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo826
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
4h 33m
Clem vs Serral
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Summer Champion…
7h 33m
WardiTV Weekly
1d 6h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 22: Qualifier #1
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
ASL Season 22: Qualifier #2
K-JUNGMAN
RSL Revival: Season 6
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5
Escore Tournament S3: W6
Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.