• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:11
CEST 15:11
KST 22:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!33Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles2GSTL Returns in 2026!45Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7
StarCraft 2
General
How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) WORTEX 2026 - Hungarian SC2 Finals Budapest
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion ASL22 General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro24 Group F BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6574 users

Perpetual balance

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 21:09:02
November 29 2010 21:05 GMT
#1
Not to start another balance thread (we have enough), but the issue I have here is in balancing itself. My key question is: does Blizzard have a responsibility to alter game mechanics to "revitalize" the game if it stagnates?

If one (or few) strategies truly become dominant, and, over time, a balance sets in, is Bliz obligated to stir up the pot to make things interesting again? People talk about "QQ" and "Learn to play," but it's obvious that even small changes to the game mechanics enormously change the viability of certain strategies. For instance, post-patch, I haven't seen many reapers around. Is this because people transitioned to better strategies? No, it's because they were made less effective due to some minor mechanical alterations, and now an effective strategy (reaper harass) is significantly less effective... so we're seeing a transition out of it.

The issue I have is of a not-so-hypothetical situation where a few strategies come to dominate. For example, let's say marine-marauder-medivac became so powerful in TvP that we never saw anything else - a dominant strategy. And let's say that colossus/stalker became the dominant strategy against it. Let's also say that, hypothetically, these strategies were perfectly balanced, such that the TvP win ratio between players both using these strategies was globally somewhere around 50%.

Over time, as this "sets in" and it becomes apparent there are few other builds with as good a probability of winning... is it time for a patch? Statistically, the game is perfectly balanced, but it's stale, boring, and predictable. It comes down to who has the best micro while executing these well-practised and statistically-favoured strategies.

My concern is this: that patching for "balance" is itself a Quixotic task. Ask yourself: why is balance important at all? Race attachment aside, balance is important so everyone doesn't all pick the same race in order to win. We like the diversity of having games that aren't chess-matches of identical sides, it's something unique to RTS play (especially Starcraft). The most important thing is that the game is diverse and "unbalanced" such that we can have games with many different strategies and the possibility of "swings" in favour. It's always awesome to see one player come back from a deficit to win.

So, should Blizzard make alterations to the game that incentivize diverse play, or is it more important that the win ratios all be identical?

EDIT: I should've called this thread "Perpetual Patching," as I don't really care about balance at all, though I do use the term.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
Treehead
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
999 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 21:26:48
November 29 2010 21:23 GMT
#2
SC2 is a real time strategy game. If there exists a set of strategies dominant enough that no strategy outside that set can compete with any in that set, you remove an element of strategy - because you know the only case you need to consider is one or two strategies the opponent can execute. When the game comes down to execution of a couple of strategies, it ceases to be a strategy game. Sure, there is still a strategic aspect to it in positioning (much like there are strategic aspects to games like street fighter), but what truly defines a game as a strategy game is the ability for players to make informed decisions and for those decisions to affect the outcome of the game. At some point, in the game you describe (where dominant strategies are the only ones used), the game comes down only to who clicks the most accurately.

Edit: I guess my answer here is - I feel play should provide various options to succeed in order for the game to be correctly labelled a strategy game, but it doesn't have to fullfill that criteria to still be a very good game.

Also, Blizzard does not have an obligation to do anything to maintain balance. It's their game - if they want it to be ridiculously unbalanced, then they can do that (note that this is a big "if" - it's pretty balanced as is). But inherently they have a motivation to encourage diverse play - they spent design time on every unit and concept, so it's unfortunate if 75% of those units and game mechanics never see the light of day.
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
November 29 2010 23:24 GMT
#3
Treehead has excellent points. I also think that part of what made Brood War so good wasn't the fact that it was so well balanced, but the fact that it was so well balanced and diverse. StarCraft has a huge edge on this already, because it has 3 different races.

What's more diverse? A game with 3 different races, all with their own mechanics, or a single race, maybe with minor tech modifications and unique units, ala Age of Empires? Answer: Clearly StarCraft.

What's more diverse? StarCraft with 1 or 2 dominant strategies for each race, or Age of Empires with 5 or 6 Tier 1 strategies? The answer here seems like it's even, but it's not. When you open Age of Empires, you know you will be facing one of 5 or 6 strategies, which also increases the amount of combinations you play against if you know several BO's but only one race, as is often the case in StarCraft.

Basically my point is, StarCraft's biggest advantages are A) It's balance and B) It's diversity. I think StarCraft II is superbly balanced for a game of it's age, and has heaps of diversity. However, should the situation lowercase described come to pass, it'll lose half it's appeal, and never be as fun as Brood War was. It'd also slow down or end the evolution of the game since you'd just get punished for deviation.

So yes, Blizzard must patch to ensure two things: balance and diversity, though balance must come first. If the game is unbalanced, diversity will suffer hugely. Balance between races and balance between strategy is essential to ensure this game is played for years to come.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
lowercase
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1047 Posts
November 30 2010 00:39 GMT
#4
I personally think Blizz has a financial duty to keep the game interesting, or people will stop playing it and watching it. They will accomplish this easily with the expansions, but I think minor changes will still be put out to "refresh" the game as it gets old. They have already proven they will patch for diversity rather than balance, by nerfing VR, etc.

And what the hell is with the expansions by the way? I get the feeling they shipped Wings of Liberty as an incomplete game, holding back planned units for the expansions. I would've preferred a complete game and then had them actually add new stuff for the expansions.
That is not dead which can eternal lie...
gotlucky
Profile Joined May 2010
United States60 Posts
November 30 2010 00:39 GMT
#5
Don't forget there will be two expansions. Even if Blizzard can somehow get a perfect balance, the zerg expansion will be out. And then they will have to balance that. And then the protoss expansion will be out.

I don't think you need to worry about too many patches.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Weekly
11:00
#102
IntoTheiNu 1271
WardiTV802
TKL 246
IndyStarCraft 226
Rex122
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
TKL 246
IndyStarCraft 226
Rex 122
Trap 17
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 52518
Calm 7377
Shuttle 5286
Horang2 788
EffOrt 785
Jaedong 693
BeSt 683
Mini 608
Light 380
firebathero 376
[ Show more ]
actioN 270
Stork 235
Soulkey 226
ZerO 225
Rush 201
Last 159
ZZZero.O 155
Hyun 152
Snow 129
Killer 125
ggaemo 90
hero 89
Mind 78
Sea.KH 70
PianO 54
ToSsGirL 38
JYJ 36
Aegong 33
Pusan 31
Shine 30
Hm[arnc] 29
sorry 26
Sharp 26
sSak 26
zelot 17
scan(afreeca) 16
Sexy 13
SilentControl 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
Noble 10
Terrorterran 7
Icarus 6
Dota 2
420jenkins418
XcaliburYe264
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m2765
x6flipin607
zeus261
nookyyy 85
edward62
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King170
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor214
Liquid`Hasu36
Other Games
singsing2021
B2W.Neo643
crisheroes419
XaKoH 203
mouzStarbuck133
amsayoshi29
ZerO(Twitch)17
ToD1
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3798
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH325
• StrangeGG 61
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1736
Other Games
• WagamamaTV366
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
20h 49m
Afreeca Starleague
20h 49m
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 2h
GSL
1d 21h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-27
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
BSL 2026 LAN: Kraków
RSL Revival: Season 6
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Calamity Invitational
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.