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On March 12 2011 10:01 Derrida wrote:Hm, I just discovered about this, it is incredible. However, when trying out any protoss build, it says I can begin building the pylon at 44th second whereas it is virtually impossible to do it before 47th second? I've looked around in the first half a dozen pages but nothing of this sort is talked about so wanted to ask this. Am I horribly failing somewhere? + Show Spoiler +
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - (Probe Spawned)
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - (Probe Spawned)
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
Yeah, I just started playing around with protoss build orders and have noticed that it seems to be shaving off a few seconds early game where there is no possible way to actually do that. Maybe if you double up probes on close patches perfectly it is possible? But that's an unrealistic assumption, I think.
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On March 12 2011 11:29 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 10:01 Derrida wrote:Hm, I just discovered about this, it is incredible. However, when trying out any protoss build, it says I can begin building the pylon at 44th second whereas it is virtually impossible to do it before 47th second? I've looked around in the first half a dozen pages but nothing of this sort is talked about so wanted to ask this. Am I horribly failing somewhere? + Show Spoiler +
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - (Probe Spawned)
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - (Probe Spawned)
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
Yeah, I just started playing around with protoss build orders and have noticed that it seems to be shaving off a few seconds early game where there is no possible way to actually do that. Maybe if you double up probes on close patches perfectly it is possible? But that's an unrealistic assumption, I think.
There are a couple of things to note. Firstly, the build order assumes you start at 2s, where I've noticed even pros take 3-4s before they start mining. Secondly, it will assume that you are microing your workers correctly. I really don't think it's that unrealistic as most players Diamond+ do it. Try playing on the slowest speed and see if you can get closer to the output's times. Just about every build order I've tested has been within 1s or so of the output during the very early game.
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When you say microing your workers correctly, you can stack your workers all on the close patches but it takes until at least 8-9 supply until that happens how does that differ from the computer. Also, does the computer just stack them all instantly?
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On March 12 2011 18:16 badcop wrote:
When you say microing your workers correctly, you can stack your workers all on the close patches but it takes until at least 8-9 supply until that happens how does that differ from the computer. Also, does the computer just stack them all instantly?
It's not that sophisticated - the algorithm just uses a measured mining rate and assumes that's what your income rate is. The rate it uses assumes you stack the close patches first before the ones further away. If you test the build yourself with stacking and on slower, I think you'll get pretty close to the program's timing.
Edit: I was just testing and I was about to get it down to about 46s, and with the extra couple of seconds for the initial split that matches the program's output.
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Hm, would it possible to include an option where it doesn't try to optimize to this extent? I'm assuming the program does a 6 way divide to begin with instead of the 2 way divide most people begin with.
An option to compute according to above-average human capabilities would be nice to have. Nevertheless, this is an awesome program, and you sir, are a genius. Thanks for all the work you've put in it.
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On March 12 2011 23:37 Derrida wrote:
Hm, would it possible to include an option where it doesn't try to optimize to this extent? I'm assuming the program does a 6 way divide to begin with instead of the 2 way divide most people begin with.
As above, it's really not that sophisticated. It has an income rate which is based on the number of workers. It doesn't calculate splits or anything like that. What I'll probably do is adjust the starting time to 4s by default and let you customise it from there.
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How do i open my saved files ? everytime i save something and open it again, they are blank files.
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On March 13 2011 09:18 HeroFighter wrote:
How do i open my saved files ? everytime i save something and open it again, they are blank files.
Saving/Loading isn't implemented yet.
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Question: In playing around with this tester, should I be assuming that the computer is performing as fast as possible, or as fast as humanly possible? Specifically, does the tester account for a humans reaction time?
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On March 13 2011 09:42 wo1fwood wrote:
Question: In playing around with this tester, should I be assuming that the computer is performing as fast as possible, or as fast as humanly possible? Specifically, does the tester account for a humans reaction time?
The purpose is to show you what the best possible build order is. Given it's a fixed order, there's not really any 'reaction time' you need to concern about - you already know what's going to happen, and what you're going to do when it does, so there shouldn't be any delays.
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On March 12 2011 18:12 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 11:29 PJA wrote:On March 12 2011 10:01 Derrida wrote:Hm, I just discovered about this, it is incredible. However, when trying out any protoss build, it says I can begin building the pylon at 44th second whereas it is virtually impossible to do it before 47th second? I've looked around in the first half a dozen pages but nothing of this sort is talked about so wanted to ask this. Am I horribly failing somewhere? + Show Spoiler +
0:02.00: 50M 0G 0E 6/ 10S - Build Probe
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - (Probe Spawned)
0:19.00: 73M 0G 10E 7/ 10S - Build Probe
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - (Probe Spawned)
0:36.00: 106M 0G 19E 8/ 10S - Build Probe
0:44.10: 100M 0G 24E 9/ 10S - Build Pylon
Yeah, I just started playing around with protoss build orders and have noticed that it seems to be shaving off a few seconds early game where there is no possible way to actually do that. Maybe if you double up probes on close patches perfectly it is possible? But that's an unrealistic assumption, I think. There are a couple of things to note. Firstly, the build order assumes you start at 2s, where I've noticed even pros take 3-4s before they start mining. Secondly, it will assume that you are microing your workers correctly. I really don't think it's that unrealistic as most players Diamond+ do it. Try playing on the slowest speed and see if you can get closer to the output's times. Just about every build order I've tested has been within 1s or so of the output during the very early game.
Yeah, thanks. I'm able to get a little closer with just microing probes, which I've been too lazy to do in the past.
I have another question, though. Is it possible to say "don't build X until at least time Y" ? In particular, in PvZ you don't want to place a nexus until warp gate research is done, since it's much less safe, but basically running it on any 3 Gate FE build with correct waypoints gives this problem.
The only way I've been able to fix it is to up the number of units produced earlier on until it can't place the nexus on 32 or whatever it wants to do, but a lot of times this makes it impossible to replicate the timings on the 2nd nexus I am able to do without even optimizing, while getting out a more reasonable number of units at the earlier time.
EDIT: Similarly, in ZvP it's impossible to place a hatchery against a well-micro'd probe and/or pylon at the hatchery location, so saying "don't build hatch until whatever time at which I have out my 2 lings" would be a very useful restriction.
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On March 15 2011 03:03 PJA wrote:
I have another question, though. Is it possible to say "don't build X until at least time Y" ? In particular, in PvZ you don't want to place a nexus until warp gate research is done, since it's much less safe, but basically running it on any 3 Gate FE build with correct waypoints gives this problem.
The only way I've been able to fix it is to up the number of units produced earlier on until it can't place the nexus on 32 or whatever it wants to do, but a lot of times this makes it impossible to replicate the timings on the 2nd nexus I am able to do without even optimizing, while getting out a more reasonable number of units at the earlier time.
EDIT: Similarly, in ZvP it's impossible to place a hatchery against a well-micro'd probe and/or pylon at the hatchery location, so saying "don't build hatch until whatever time at which I have out my 2 lings" would be a very useful restriction.
A lot of people have asked for this - you will be able to do it once maximums are implemented. No ETA on that yet.
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I just recently found this on the custom list and it actually is a lot of help, although I prefer to practice building placement to go against the Computer AI on the actual maps so I can practice building placement when I feel like using terran.
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On March 15 2011 08:04 frozt_ wrote:
I just recently found this on the custom list and it actually is a lot of help, although I prefer to practice building placement to go against the Computer AI on the actual maps so I can practice building placement when I feel like using terran.
If that's the case I'd recommend getting YABOT and putting the output from my app into it. You'll be able to practice against the computer using certain other builds whilst still testing the timings of your build against my app's timings.
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We need an update for patch 1.3 pls, eg stim research time increase.
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Can you implement build order transitions. Like for example entering a build order like 15 hatchery 14 pool, and then get the fastest possible build order for 5 banelings from that build order. Basically giving the program a starting build order to build off of.
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On March 23 2011 09:40 MUirbeqU wrote:
Can you implement build order transitions. Like for example entering a build order like 15 hatchery 14 pool, and then get the fastest possible build order for 5 banelings from that build order. Basically giving the program a starting build order to build off of.
You can do this on your own via waypoints.
If you want a standard terran opener for example set the first waypoint to:
190 sec
1 marine
1 barracks
1 refinery
1 orbital command
and you will end up with
10 depot
12 barracks
13 refinery
15 oc
15 marine @ 3:10
just try it out for zerg.
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On March 23 2011 06:44 graNite wrote:
We need an update for patch 1.3 pls, eg stim research time increase.
Could you maybe put parameters like that in say an XML file so they're easily editable by everyone? Build time changes might happen every other patch.
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Hey I'M just playing around with this. Tried to get some early 5 stalker blink stuff together, but it has that very funny part:
24 Stalker
26 Move Probe To Gas
28 Twilight Council
28 Move Probe To Minerals
28 Gateway
28 Gateway
28 Chrono Twilight Council
28 Blink
28 Gateway
28 Move Probe To Gas
does it assumje i can research blink at the same supply i'm building the twilight council?
or am i just supposed not to build any more probes till the council is done?
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On March 25 2011 05:44 Babyschwein wrote:
Hey I'M just playing around with this. Tried to get some early 5 stalker blink stuff together, but it has that very funny part:
24 Stalker
26 Move Probe To Gas
28 Twilight Council
28 Move Probe To Minerals
28 Gateway
28 Gateway
28 Chrono Twilight Council
28 Blink
28 Gateway
28 Move Probe To Gas
does it assumje i can research blink at the same supply i'm building the twilight council?
or am i just supposed not to build any more probes till the council is done?
Probably it is telling you not to build any more probes... You have to use waypoints well if you want to get any reasonable build orders.
If you're unsure about what it is telling you to do in the future, try changing the output fomat to "Full" rather than "Simple." If it is telling you to build blink before twilight council finishes (doubt it), then obviously it is a bug. Otherwise it is telling you to cut probes.
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EPT
