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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144507
I realize the above thread was made a while ago, but I wanted to make a topic about the general potential and possibilities for this upgrade (beyond a contain which that thread speaks of) where we can explore the upgrade, post replays, VODs, and stories of it's use.
We all know that Terran Infantry is amazingly powerful, and with bunker salvage I think that slow pushes, map control, etc. can be even stronger with this upgrade.
Also, I feel this upgrade would greatly synergize with the building armor/range upgrade.
Has anyone seen this upgrade used in high-level play? I know it has been ignored, but that does not necessarily mean it is ineffective. Many BW strategies took years to be taken seriously.
Thoughts?
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I'd just sooner build another bunker when I'm in a time of need and salvage it when I don't need it. Not so sure about slow bunker pushes.
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On November 12 2010 02:21 0neder wrote:
Thoughts?
For the cost of the Upgrade you could just build another Bunker, safe the Gas, get 2 additional Slots and another 400 Points of HealthBuffer. Because Bunkers are salvageable there is not even a true "Point-of-Return" for the Upgrade.
This Upgrade would be usefull if it would give additional HP to the Bunkers aswell, but as it as atm its just not worth the investment imho.
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Great for maps with multiple Islands like LT. Having 6 marines in a bunker is great and I agree it could take time to be appreciated I do get building armor around the time I get a planetary because its such a great upgrade.
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If this upgrade didn't cost gas it might be useful, since right now bunkers are basically free if you needed more bunker space you could just build more bunkers. Or better yet, how about an upgrade that increases the construction speed or rate of repair of bunkers.
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Does anyone have any experience with this upgrade? I'd like to avoid too much theorycrafting, but I do think we can do better than 'it costs gas and it's impossible to spend gas on such a thing.'
I'd post replays or videos myself, but I don't have a machine that can run SC2 yet.
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i was thinking about getting it against toss players who go storm. But once they see mass bunkers they go for colossus or blink stalker. And i am not that good with timings (especially since my opponents don't care about timings as well), to have bunkers with 6 spots once they are pushing with their hts ^^. Also atm most pvt games aren't that long, for it to be usefull.
It can be funny on planetary attacks, if the toss uses storms to kill the scvs you can easily save 5 ^^. So mostly a lategame bio heavy tech where you want more stuff in range of the enemy army, because 200 supplys in bunkers has some range restrictions xD.
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Hmm you don't want theorycraft but that's pretty much what your OP is. I know you're looking for actual experience but...
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EBay tech is underused in TvZ.
I'm making it a point to get this upgrade and the building armour upgrade because it soft counters MutaLing straight up. If someone could crunch the numbers I think the building armour upgrade reduces mutaling dps by 10-20% (mainly because of lings and muta secondary bounces). That extra is negated when you're not in bunkers, and the expanded bunkers make that bunker more of a hardpoint and increase the dmg output of the bunker by up to 50% (2extra marines). Also, for maps like LT, you can get an extremely hard to kill 3rd relatively fast by floating over a full CC (8scvs) to the island. 3-4 turrets with +2 armour and that exp is pretty much yours for the next 4-6mins while zerg is messing about with mutas.
I haven't tried throwing it into a contain or timing push, but since we all know how cost-effective bunkers currently are, i'm sure it would make them that much more effective. I think if you were going Marine/Raven, the Ebay techs would supplement your army the most, especially early game with no medis.
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On November 12 2010 02:39 FabledIntegral wrote:
Hmm you don't want theorycraft but that's pretty much what your OP is. I know you're looking for actual experience but...
It's more of a call for people who have experience with it to share theirs.
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personally i think the building armor upgrade is far superior to extra slots. It will often end up paying for itself especially against heavy bling zergs, alot of zerg players have worked out exactly how many banes it takes to kill a PF, if its got extra armor..... they might not send enough in to kill it and ultimately you may be able to save it. 150/150 is cheap.
This is true of all buildings, with the eatra armor your buildings last so much longer. The time can be the difference between getting another production cycle out to save the game or dying. Its the one upgrade that i think should be purchased without question in the mid to late game when terrans are on 3-4 bases...and improves the survivability of every building you have.
I also like the turret range upgrade... mainly because it again improves the survivability of PF's and obv makes your expo's harder to break... not too many units have more than 7 range. 100/100 is again cheap for the extra damage it can generate. Also it only take 80 secs compared to most of the other ebay upgrades... thats fast. Even the armor upgrade is faster than infantry level 1 by 20 secs....
for 250/250 there aren't much more cost effective upgrades for terrans, especially if you are already at 3/3 ups on infantry... even if you aren't at 3/3 your PF's become almost unbreakable with good repair and a little backup from your army.
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Well, I am just theorycrafting because I am a lower league player but I have been thinking on this a lot.
I think as Terran you will need to do a slow Bunker/Turret/Tank push against a Z. Many of the Streams and replays that I see, I notice that when a Terran goes Marines+ Tanks, when they lose a battle its because they could not react or where overwhelmed with huge Bling numbers(or drops) and the Mutas cleaning up the remaining tanks.
With a few Bunkers, and turrets your marines(and more importantly, more marines per bunker) will be able to survive more against a Huge number of Blings or Roaches. The Turret Range and the building armour complements this kid of push too. And you won't need a crazy micro ability to split up that many marines because the Zerg will be "wasting" a lot of the Blings in destroying the buffed Bunkers.
I am going to try incorporating this on my TvZ but since I am in Plywood league it means nothing.
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You know, I was thinking about this after watching Jinro vs Socke MLG.
Upgraded bunkers could work great in combination with nukes. Fire a nuke towards your opponent, and then rush 4-5 SCVs into the nuke's center to start building bunkers. If your opponent sticks around to kill the bunkers/scv, you can cancel the bunkers and they get nuked. And if they stay away the nuke gives your scvs a free, safe 20 seconds towards completing those forward bunkers. (and you cancel the nuke before it completes, obviously)
It might be another fun way to make late game bio work without medivacs.
Although all that is 100% theorycraft, as I only spectate sc2 :p
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@ Robobob, thats a pretty crazy strat!
You could probably use the in-game timer to time the nuke just right, but I'd be afraid of accidentally letting it go off :X
It makes me wish they had a nuke count down timer 
But in my opinion, the upgrade is fine how it is. Its sort of like stacking marines. Instead of having to have marines arch around an enemy to focus fire, they can just sit in a bunker.
And it especially comes in handy when you place bunkers in key positions. Like if you can fit 1 bunker on the edge of a cliff, it would be great to have those extra 2 marines inside the bunker (because you can't just build extra bunkers along the side of the cliff, theres no space and they all won't fire because they're too far away).
So it does come in handy, but imo it should let marines and scvs enter all types of command centers and imo salvage should be nerfed, to like at least 80% mineral return.
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Seen it in the most straightforward use possible - high-end positional TvP on SoW, bio mech, the +2 bunker space was used in late game to shield the bio from storms in the middle of the map.
Otherwise, I'd argue that it's one of the more useless upgrades in game
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I can only see a value in using it during a bunker push. Since it'll reduce the amount of SCVs needed to build the needed bunkers during the push it'll make it easier. So 2 bunkers during the push equals the same amount of 3 bunkers without neosteel. Also it'll throw the enemy off as to how big your army actually is.
However since the upgrade comes from the ebay, you can easily get +1 weapons or armor which can can be just as beneficial depending on the unit comp and opponent unit comp.
An interesting thing about bunkers, is because its a building, it is not effected by psi storm or fungal growth, which would usually cripple bio. So neosteel+bunker push vs infestors/templar would be a decent tactic.
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EPT
