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Active: 656 users

SC2 is just an elaborate "rock, paper, scissors"?

Forum Index > SC2 General
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adrenaLinG
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada676 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 07:15:21
October 15 2010 06:58 GMT
#1
I was doing my usual news reading online and I bumped into an article about Starcraft in the most unlikely of places, The Walrus, which is a Canadian magazine similar to Harper's.

I found the way the journalist wrote about the game pretty insightful, even though I've been playing the game for awhile. I thought it was pretty neat.

http://www.walrusmagazine.com/blogs/2010/09/23/rock-paper-starcrafts/


Rock, Paper, Starcrafts
From hand-to-hand combat to advanced battle strategy, it’s all in the metagame
BY DAVID RUSAK
SEPTEMBER 23RD, 2010

EXT. MEADOW — DAY
VIZZINI sits at a covered table, on which rests a bottle of wine and two goblets; BUTTERCUP, his blindfolded captive, is to his left. The MAN IN BLACK, seated opposite, has just added a fatal poison to one of the cups — unseen by VIZZINI, who now must choose which drink to consume. The survivor of this contest will claim BUTTERCUP as his prize.

MAN IN BLACK: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right… and who is dead.

VIZZINI: But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy’s? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool. You would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

MAN IN BLACK: You’ve made your decision then?

VIZZINI: Not remotely. Because iocaine comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

MAN IN BLACK: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

VIZZINI: Wait till I get going! Where was I?

My game begins, as it always does, with a central building and four workers. With them gathering minerals and more workers on the way, I scout out my enemy’s location — he is playing as the gooey, alien Zerg — while developing my base and building an army. After a few minutes, my first wave of troops — a small squad of rocket-firing heavy infantry called marauders — is ready to go and, fearing the loss of the initiative, I venture out to invade my opponent. As I reach his base, a stream of zerglings arrive, already upgraded to run at high speed, and instantly swarm my fighters, trapping and then clawing them apart before dashing off to demolish my base. Moments later, they tear through my protective wall, the couple of new soldiers I’ve managed to pump out behind it, and, finally, my precious resource gatherers. With a dejected “gg,” I surrender and go straight to searching for a new match, eager to try new approaches against the next random opponent.

StarCraft II came out this July and, like its predecessor StarCraft (the most popular real-time strategy game of all time, released in 1998 and still played in global tournaments by star players who earn six-figure salaries), features battles to the digital death among three races: Terran, Protoss, and Zerg, each with its own unique selection of units, buildings, and technologies. Was I a fool for choosing those slow and swarmable marauders? Not necessarily. If my opponent had fielded (as many do) the Zerg’s tougher, acid-spitting roaches instead, my armour-piercing rockets would have devastated them. I could have anticipated his zerglings and made hellions, light vehicles with flamethrowers that roast whole rows of the critters alive, but these in turn would have stood no chance against roaches.

One of the most trumpeted virtues of the original SC, and the goal of its still-developing sequel, is near-perfect game balance. For every strategy, there must be an effective counter; each race must be able to succeed or fail against any of the others; each unit must be vulnerable to some other. If any one turns out to be dominant, the onus is on Blizzard, the maker of the games, to “nerf” (i.e., worsen) the offending element in the next update. Since every move in SC ideally has a countering response, the success of your strategy always hangs on that chosen by your opponent. In this respect, it is essentially an elaborate version of a still more classic game: Rock, Paper, Scissors.

That may sound like a bad thing. RPS is very simple: there is no window dressing, just three equivalent moves, and the optimal strategy, according to game theory, is to randomly play each of rock, paper, and scissors one third of the time. However, game theory deals only with “ideally rational” players; as has been noted on this blog before, the involvement of real human beings changes everything. When we play a game like RPS, we impart a messy landscape of feelings and expectations to it that have little to do with the game’s pure, symmetrical form. If my opponent’s scissors beat my paper last round, will she be caught off guard when I use paper again? Or will she expect this sneakiness and counter with scissors, necessitating rock? Rock is often characterized as aggressive, scissors crafty, and paper subtle or refined; these characters are wholly baseless, but, like the guess based on previous rounds, provide an arbitrary starting point for strategizing (“I need to get aggressive; should I throw rock? Or scissors to counter the paper that counters rock? Or…”). In a strategic situation such as this, the two players’ expectations of one another’s expectations feed back infinitely, like a pair of facing mirrors.

Humans are both notoriously terrible at randomizing (especially under pressure) and excellent at detecting patterns (like those underlying our crappy randomization). So, as any skilled poker player knows, you can learn to intuit the order that underlies even your opponent’s most deliberately unpredictable behaviours. Throwing with perfect randomness would always guarantee you a 50-percent chance of winning or losing at RPS; but if you can predict your opponent’s actions, you can do much better than that.

The gaming world has a term for this crucial well of information which lies not within the mechanics of a game but in the people who play it: the metagame. “Metagame” refers to the tendencies of the whole community (e.g., “The Zerg metagame is all mass roaches now, so I always make some marauders”), but also to using knowledge of individual players (e.g. “He pumps zerglings a lot, so I’m going to metagame and go straight for hellions”). The metagame of SC (and other competitive strategy games, from the tectonic shifting of chess to the frenetically refreshed Magic: The Gathering) is constantly changing and developing in a sort of game-wide Brownian motion, as new strategies are invented to one-up the previously dominant ones. This is made all the more interesting by the many levels on which RPS-like dynamics exist in SC. A player who builds up both army and economy at an average rate will be able to repel and then beat a “rushing” player who makes the quickest possible army at the expense of long-term production; a player who immediately focuses on building up her economy will be able to field a larger army later on than a player with a balanced strategy; and that economy-centric approach is in turn easily taken out with a rush attack. As described above, different unit types also counter and are countered by one another in an analogous way. And each of the nine race matchups one can play (as Terran against Terran, Zerg, or Protoss, etc.) demands a different approach according to the different races’ unique strengths and weaknesses. The immense sophistication of the metagame among top players is evident in this history of the strategies developed for just one of those matchups — Terran vs. Protoss — in the original SC. The picture forming is of a game that consists of many nested and iterated RPS-like battles, the nuances of which can be felt keenly by watching the back-and-forth exchange of a well-matched expert game.

Strategy is only part of the formula, though; SC is still a computer game, and the vast majority of learning a novice player faces has to do with gaining a command of its particular nuts and bolts. One popular measure of sheer game skill is a player’s “actions per minute” (APM); casual players reportedly perform somewhere between 50-100 APM, whereas pros can range into the freakishly high 300-plus area — which has nothing to do with strategic thinking and everything to do with being able to effortlessly handle the constant micro- and macro-management required by SC. Similarly, studies in psychology have shown that expert chess players’ exceptional ability to remember board positions is not due to generally superior memory skills, but rather to familiarity with typical chess positions. When faced with a board in which pieces are placed completely randomly, chess masters fare no better than novices at remembering where they were.

While encyclopedic knowledge of the tech trees and build orders of SC provides zilch by way of transfer to other pursuits, the strategic intuitions of strategy game players doubtless are transferable — if the success of competitive SC and Magic players in poker tournaments is any way to judge. What these games all have in common is their strategic core: the metagame of psychological second-, third-, and nth-guessing that underlies any situation in which your choices depend on your opponent’s and vice versa. Strategic insight is insight into every such situation, which is precisely why it has been popular to search books like The Art of War (explicitly about war) or The Book of Five Rings (explicitly about martial combat) for wisdom in areas of life from games to business to intimate relationships.

Which brings us back to Rock, Paper, Scissors: a pure — perhaps perfect — instantiation of the strategic encounter, virtually untainted by considerations of game-specific skill (admittedly, some manual dexterity required). So, the next time you throw down Rock, Paper, or Scissors for the front seat or the last bit of food, just remember: though the game you are playing seems trivial, the metagame it taps into is deep, ancient, and universal. And if your opponent plays a lot of StarCraft, you may want to flip a coin instead.

edit:
But yes.. he seems to believe that you start with 4 workers and he somehow lost to zerglings while walling off as Terran..
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Vexx
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States462 Posts
October 15 2010 07:03 GMT
#2
My game begins, as it always does, with a central building and four workers.


He mentions marauders a line later so I know he's talking about SC2. I'll read the article when the author has a clue what he's talking about.
I am not nice.
Hats Hats Hats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States19 Posts
October 15 2010 07:04 GMT
#3
Fails to take into account positioning and micro. Sufficiently well-controlled marauders will defeat sufficiently terribly managed zerglings.
Rikstah
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia126 Posts
October 15 2010 07:05 GMT
#4
Sounds like hes trying to sound smart but hes basically said nothing and come to no useful conclusion.
Thors before Whores man
mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 07:09:08
October 15 2010 07:06 GMT
#5
(e.g. “He pumps zerglings a lot, so I’m going to metagame and go straight for hellions”).


oh my fucking god

he used metagame as a verb T____T

this article is horrible. completely ignore elements like micro, macro, and scouting.

edit: holy shit if you read it twice it gets worse
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
adrenaLinG
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada676 Posts
October 15 2010 07:10 GMT
#6
On October 15 2010 16:05 Rikstah wrote:
Sounds like hes trying to sound smart but hes basically said nothing and come to no useful conclusion.

terran = rock
protoss = scissors
zerg = paper

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
October 15 2010 07:11 GMT
#7
Actually it's reasonably insightful.

At top level good scouting obviously throws his rock paper scissors theory out the window but it is true lots of people just play blind and guess.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
Vei
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2845 Posts
October 15 2010 07:13 GMT
#8
this article is great, i can't wait to log on and metagame some chobos with 4range roaches. i just hope i don't get metagamed by mass marauders ( ._·)
www.justin.tv/veisc2 ~ 720p + commentary
TheFinalWord
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia790 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 07:19:21
October 15 2010 07:18 GMT
#9
Eh, I think it's only sissors paper rock if scouting doesn't exist. You don't have to rely on chance is you know what they are doing. Matchups like p v p where scouting info is very limited are the most similar to rps. Also, and even if you do go rock and they go scissors, macro and micro will win for you.
Thatcheress
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia25 Posts
October 15 2010 07:20 GMT
#10
"HAI, I RITE ARTICLE, I IS SMART NAO?"

Seriously, Fruitseller vs. HopeTorture, Game 3 (iirc, the one on Scrap Station) GSL finals disproves this "theory" entirely. Does not take into account macro or micro in any shape or form at all.
Ho hum.
Jigsetcza
Profile Joined August 2010
United States118 Posts
October 15 2010 07:22 GMT
#11
If there were no counters then people will just the same thing over and over and over and over. And it's only RPS if you mass 1 type of unit.
febreze
Profile Joined April 2010
167 Posts
October 15 2010 07:22 GMT
#12
On October 15 2010 16:11 Klive5ive wrote:
Actually it's reasonably insightful.

At top level good scouting obviously throws his rock paper scissors theory out the window but it is true lots of people just play blind and guess.


Choosing when to scout is a major part of the metagame.
Beauty in truth, deception with dogma, meaning through life.
bubblegumbo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Taiwan1296 Posts
October 15 2010 07:23 GMT
#13
Starcraft's balance was never based on a paper rock scissors philosophy even within the context he used those terms. Also the great players don't "guess" before picking a strategy, they use scouting and game experience before making their decision. It was a stupid idea to write an article like this with that kind of theme.
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper is a genius. For man to survive, they need toilet paper!"- Nal_rA
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
October 15 2010 07:25 GMT
#14
This guy doesn't have a good understanding of SC2 at all, or any RTS for that matter.

He's probably in bronze league. I bet his timing on the marauders was horrible. Who attacks with pure marauders vs Z anyways?
IronMonocle
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada142 Posts
October 15 2010 07:25 GMT
#15
believe it or not, rock paper scissors is played competitively
My armor is contempt. My shield is disgust. My sword is hatred.
Nadir
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia114 Posts
October 15 2010 07:31 GMT
#16
On October 15 2010 16:25 IronMonocle wrote:
believe it or not, rock paper scissors is played competitively

I assume the only way to win is to stop?
TLOwnage Victim :D
Slago
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada726 Posts
October 15 2010 07:34 GMT
#17
old topic with not much merit :/
I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum and I'm all out of... ah forget it
DeckOneBell
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States526 Posts
October 15 2010 07:34 GMT
#18
Metagame. Metagame, metagame, metagame. I'm pretty sure this guy is metagaming Starcraft 2's metagame way too much. Maybe he should take a step back and look at the metagame, before he tries to metagame his counter.

... is that about right?
Anfere
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada231 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 07:38:21
October 15 2010 07:36 GMT
#19
tl, tr

Obviously it involves skill, practice, work, strategy, macro/micro, scouting all of those can't be random :D
Immortal or no Immortal, that is the question ! Someone give me a hamlet skull !
leetchaos
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 07:38:11
October 15 2010 07:37 GMT
#20
On October 15 2010 16:06 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
(e.g. “He pumps zerglings a lot, so I’m going to metagame and go straight for hellions”).


oh my fucking god

he used metagame as a verb T____T

this article is horrible. completely ignore elements like micro, macro, and scouting.

edit: holy shit if you read it twice it gets worse


Metagame can be a verb. Plenty of Roleplayers (D&D) use the term "meta-gaming": making decisions based on knowledge outside of the game. People on this website just never use it that way (because 90% of uses of the word metagame are not actually about metagame).
Doc Daneeka
Profile Joined March 2010
United States577 Posts
October 15 2010 07:37 GMT
#21
say what you will about rock paper scissors, it's one of the most balanced games of all time.
payed off security
hellsan631
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States695 Posts
October 15 2010 07:38 GMT
#22
the art of war isn't rock paper scissors, so how can star craft be?

Obviously there are good responses, but clever strategy and tactics can out beat the idea of a counter. 1 immortal can not kill infinity roaches, and so on.

BTW metagame is such a stupid word.
johanngrunt
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Hong Kong1555 Posts
October 15 2010 07:40 GMT
#23
Obviously he isn't targeting this article at TL readers. For the layperson, this would be a very informative look into the general idea behind an RTS like SC2, only people who've actually played a lot of SC2 would find this article lacking.
leetchaos
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 07:48:50
October 15 2010 07:43 GMT
#24
On October 15 2010 16:38 hellsan631 wrote:
the art of war isn't rock paper scissors, so how can star craft be?

Obviously there are good responses, but clever strategy and tactics can out beat the idea of a counter. 1 immortal can not kill infinity roaches, and so on.

BTW metagame is such a stupid word.


Its a perfectly fine word with a really simple definition, its just gained so much widespread misuse that the definition has been warped. When people use Metagame on this website they should really be saying Strategies and Tactics (most but not all the time).

Oh dear am I
InToTheWannaB
Profile Joined September 2002
United States4770 Posts
October 15 2010 07:44 GMT
#25
Its a freaking write up for people that have never played a RTS in a newspaper that not dedicated to video games in anyway. Its not a article thats going on the front page of TL or anything. I thought it was pretty decent given its target audience.
When the spirit is not altogether slain, great loss teaches men and women to desire greatly, both for themselves and for others.
PhiliBiRD
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2643 Posts
October 15 2010 07:45 GMT
#26
its true at a basic level, but no one cares about that.
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
October 15 2010 07:45 GMT
#27
--- Nuked ---
Phanekim
Profile Joined April 2003
United States777 Posts
October 15 2010 07:49 GMT
#28
one some level all games are sorta like rock paper scissors ifyou study game theory enough. its more complicated than that but yah.
i like cheese
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
October 15 2010 07:58 GMT
#29
"Metagaming" is fine, and the whole stigma on how the word metagame is used, created by Chill, is baseless, if you compare with other words using the prefix "meta-", like meta-search engine, for example, and "metasearching". I hope some day the reverent TLers would break away and start using the "meta-word-which-must-not-be-used" freely, like they should.

About the article, I'd say Starcraft is appealing, because of more complex clues and ways to read opponents and protect yourself from being read, but yeah it's a combination between: rock-paper-scissors, press/click skill, math optimization. People who enjoy math concentrate on the third part (eg: IdrA), tweaking optimal builds, and neglecting a bit guessing, and micro. But on the high level there are so many games played, that usually the other kind of players - the micro beasts - have the upper hand, because after enough time they start using well optimized builds anyway.

There's one more thing ignored though - the jazz. All of the above is like learning to play music, involves mechanics and theory. But once a lot of skill is accumulated, you start jazzing, i.e. inventing well optimized builds on the go. Those are the genius plays, and looking at such a game is like having two jazz musicians actually creating a real war game with their music.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Pax
Profile Joined August 2010
United States175 Posts
October 15 2010 08:25 GMT
#30
On October 15 2010 16:58 figq wrote:
There's one more thing ignored though - the jazz. All of the above is like learning to play music, involves mechanics and theory. But once a lot of skill is accumulated, you start jazzing, i.e. inventing well optimized builds on the go. Those are the genius plays, and looking at such a game is like having two jazz musicians actually creating a real war game with their music.


I have discussed similar thoughts with my piano teacher, who is a brilliant jazz musician. The neurological and psychological mechanics of learning a new build (when you're just starting out) are nearly identical to that of learning a new piece (when you're just starting out). Top level players are even able to "sight-read" builds. It's crazy.
"Mankind censure injustice fearing that they may be the victims of it, and not because they shrink from committing it." -Plato
FetTerBender
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany1393 Posts
October 15 2010 08:30 GMT
#31
Scissors is OP, Rock seems quite okay.
~Paper

On a more serious note: If you build mass rocks (Zealots) vs a heavy paper army (Mutas) you might lose, even if you micro very good! On the other hand, this comparision lacks sense, doesnt take into account scouting and counterunits and oversimplyfies the matter of playing SC2.
There's a fine line between bravery and stupidity.
guyincognito314
Profile Joined October 2010
Ecuador24 Posts
October 15 2010 08:40 GMT
#32
>SC2 is just an elaborate "rock, paper, scissors"

This is one of the worst possible things to read. ANY game is more rock, paper, scissors than Starcraft.
ooni
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia1498 Posts
October 15 2010 08:56 GMT
#33
On October 15 2010 17:30 FetTerBender wrote:
Scissors is OP, Rock seems quite okay.
~Paper

On a more serious note: If you build mass rocks (Zealots) vs a heavy paper army (Mutas) you might lose, even if you micro very good! On the other hand, this comparision lacks sense, doesnt take into account scouting and counterunits and oversimplyfies the matter of playing SC2.

Well paper is used least non-competatively (3% less than Rock or Scissors)
That makes rock the most powerful tactic non-competatively

Scissors is used least competitively (3% less than Paper or Rock)
That makes Paper the most powerful tactic non-competitively.

Hopefully by using this logic Blizzard finds a way to balance rock competitively and Paper non-competitively. (Yes I am using hyperbole and juxtaposition to state how far Scissors Paper Rock is from Starcraft and at the same time parodying amount of balance discussions in this forum has despite most people not having a clue what they are on about)
Hi!
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
October 15 2010 08:58 GMT
#34
SC2 is the best kind of game, one where the better you get the more complex it becomes.

Bronze players really only need to focus on the now, making sure they havge units to fend off attacks or to attack themselves. They don't need to worry about micro and macro too much, so long as they have units coming out.

Silver takes a step up, you need to know the basic counters and a couple of builds. You also need to macro better to keep ahead. Micro still isn't too much of a worry. Again silver players exist mainly in the now but are also now probably starting to plan ahead somewhat. These player are in the process of learning how big of a deal scouting can be, games can be won and lost by scouting and countering.

Gold players tend to have good macro while they are not under attack, making workers and supply constantly etc but it will usually slip during battles. they are also now starting to learn micro better, as the battle can be turned with superior micro and now they have the skills to do it at the expense of their macro. They can plan ahead and know what general theme they want to take at any part of the game.

Plat now takes a bigger jump, they have mastered all the basic elements of the game, and some are even starting to master macro mechanics. Micro is improving and they can now likely macro and micro at the same time, albeit one will always lack when simultaneously doing them. plat players are starting to understand the concepts of creating builds on the go, they also should have learnt instinctive responses to what they see while scouting.

Diamond... well low diamond are basically like a black belt in karate, with no dans (grades of black belt). They have mastered most of the game but still have much to learn about the finer points of the art.

Meanwhile high diamond are just gods, never missing a keystoke. lol i kid. They are the black belt 5th dans of the gaming world. They can create new moves and styles and are the driving force behind everything the lower players do, they are the creators of builds and techniques who can macro and micro while making a sandwitch in the kitchen, they are just that good.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
scph
Profile Joined June 2010
Korea (South)262 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 09:11:39
October 15 2010 09:03 GMT
#35
I don't get it. Rock paper scissors referring to the idea of hard counters?

edit: so because it's not going to be on TL front page we should be okay with idiots telling others that SC2 is a rock paper scissors style game? In other words, if I'm Z, I will instawin you because you're P, but you will instawin T, who will instawin me.

Besides, this rock paper scissors idea is so false because, I will instawin both P and T anyway.
..
..
..jk.
Piski
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Finland3461 Posts
October 15 2010 09:06 GMT
#36
Anyone who have read the article knows that the writer don't really know what he is talking about. Some of his examples doesn't make any sense :o
youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
October 15 2010 09:08 GMT
#37
On October 15 2010 16:10 AdrenalinG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2010 16:05 Rikstah wrote:
Sounds like hes trying to sound smart but hes basically said nothing and come to no useful conclusion.

terran = rock
protoss = scissors
zerg = paper


Except in this case, rock beats paper also.
lalala
TyrantPotato
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Australia1541 Posts
October 15 2010 09:15 GMT
#38
hmmm because people who are earning six figure salaries are just playing rock paper scissors.

PREDICTION FOR GSL 2 FINAL

Rock vs Scissors

Results:

Rock>Scissors
Rock>Scissors
Rock>Scissors
Rock>Scissors

damn Scissors should have metagamed rock.
Forever ZeNEX.
Alsn
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden995 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 09:21:10
October 15 2010 09:15 GMT
#39
I think the article is mediocre at best, but major props for throwing in Princess Bride and Iocaine Powder references. The latter being a rock paper scissors strategy program designed for a competition I remember reading about ages ago(clicky) which takes it's name from a memorable scene in the former(awesome cult movie btw, watch it!)
Machina improba! Vel mihi ede potum vel mihi redde nummos meos!
Hadraziel
Profile Joined May 2010
Russian Federation114 Posts
October 15 2010 10:14 GMT
#40
It would be awesome if you could actually scout during rock paper scissors games
*prepare a paper*
*quick look*
Oh Noes! Scissors incoming!
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
October 15 2010 10:25 GMT
#41
There are elements of RockPaperScissor, however there is information gathering and hiding while balancing the evolving economy process with tech and army build. It is much more complex than RPS. Also countering depends on your overall in-game situation (economy, tech, production structures, micro capabilities, map design), there are no "simple" counters at a unit-level.
21 is half the truth
Darksoldierr
Profile Joined May 2010
Hungary2012 Posts
October 15 2010 10:28 GMT
#42
balance
What do humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.
Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
October 15 2010 10:28 GMT
#43
Good article. Doesn't fit the e-sports scene on this site with its abstractions and imprecisions which for some reason a lot of people in the thread stumble way too hard on. But it does a nice job of explaining the competitive quality of the game.
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 10:33:43
October 15 2010 10:32 GMT
#44
The writer of the article doesn't know what gamers mean with rock paper scissors. That and a million other mistakes he made.

Starcraft II = an army of rock paper scissor lizard spocks against an army of rock paper scissor lizard spocks.


I fucking hate articles that are well written with 70% truth in it and 30 % lies. Then everybody believes what they read and become all happy and shit.
Luckily this author was capable to only write 50% truths and got his bullshit called.
I had a good night of sleep.
bigjenk
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1543 Posts
October 15 2010 10:34 GMT
#45
Not nearly as good as the rock paper scissors analogy from another blizzard game.
Ignore my opinions I am bad
bigjenk
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1543 Posts
October 15 2010 10:35 GMT
#46
On October 15 2010 19:28 Darksoldierr wrote:
balance


Beat to it damn it.
Ignore my opinions I am bad
bigjenk
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1543 Posts
October 15 2010 10:38 GMT
#47


God this would have been so funny to have been redone as terran at the release of sc2. Not saying it's true just funny.
Ignore my opinions I am bad
Monsieur
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada71 Posts
October 15 2010 10:53 GMT
#48
My dad used to say: Son, if you don't have anything smart to say, you better stfu.


Yeah obviously this guy does not have a clue of what hes talking about. This article is way too big for its content...which is bs
Your tears taste so good! :)
kojinshugi
Profile Joined August 2010
Estonia2559 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 11:05:34
October 15 2010 11:03 GMT
#49
Mainstream media articles always like to paint Starcraft as rock paper scissors, because they think this is a clever way to describe an RTS.

Whereas the truth is that in an RTS, paper can easily beat scissors if you're managing the paper factory better than your opponent is managing his scissor factory.

(although some players would say that the terran paper factory gets repaired and is impossible to kill).
whatsgrackalackin420
251
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1401 Posts
October 15 2010 11:23 GMT
#50
The only good part of this article was the princess bride lead-in.
"If you can chill..........then chill."
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
October 15 2010 11:48 GMT
#51
Nuking from orbit > R/P/S
I'll call Nada.
dare4more
Profile Joined October 2010
55 Posts
October 15 2010 12:26 GMT
#52


I thinkk sc2 is more likely like this.. but instead of spock.. is fruit dealer
DARE4MORE ?
FreezerJumps
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada653 Posts
October 15 2010 12:49 GMT
#53
I commented on the article. My comment is awaiting moderation
Nightfall.589
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada766 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 13:12:35
October 15 2010 13:10 GMT
#54
On October 15 2010 16:58 figq wrote:
"Metagaming" is fine, and the whole stigma on how the word metagame is used, created by Chill, is baseless, if you compare with other words using the prefix "meta-", like meta-search engine, for example, and "metasearching". I hope some day the reverent TLers would break away and start using the "meta-word-which-must-not-be-used" freely, like they should.


Ironically, Chill used Wikipedia to define the word "Meta", yet he didn't consider looking up the Wikipedia definition of "Metagame"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagame

Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.


It can even be used as a verb!
Proof by Legislation: An entire body of (sort-of) elected officials is more correct than all of the known laws of physics, math and science as a whole. -Scott McIntyre
SilverPotato
Profile Joined July 2010
United States560 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-15 13:18:34
October 15 2010 13:18 GMT
#55
Metagame is even one the tags on the article :D
"The ability to learn faster than your competitors may be the only sustainable competitive advantage." ~Arie de Geus
awesomoecalypse
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2235 Posts
October 15 2010 13:30 GMT
#56
Clearly this guy needs to watch more Day9. With rare exceptions (e.g. Vikings vs. Colossi, or Banshees vs. Zerglings), "counters" are far less meaningful than how much stuff you have, and how well you micro that stuff. Colossi "counter" Lings pretty damn hard, but if you send one Colossus against 200 lings on a flat surface, your Colossus is gonna get surrounded and killed.
He drone drone drone. Me win. - ogsMC
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
October 15 2010 13:40 GMT
#57
On October 15 2010 16:10 AdrenalinG wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2010 16:05 Rikstah wrote:
Sounds like hes trying to sound smart but hes basically said nothing and come to no useful conclusion.

terran = rock
protoss = scissors
zerg = paper


So
Z > T?
Tropics
Profile Joined August 2007
United Kingdom1132 Posts
October 15 2010 13:42 GMT
#58
the person who wrote the article in the op is far smarter than the vast majority of the people in this thread

maybe if they actually read the article and considered what the words meant they'd realize he didnt mean "SC2 HAS A HARD COUNTER SYSTEM"
Rikstah
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia126 Posts
October 15 2010 13:43 GMT
#59
The article was basically saying how the mainstream would like to view all RTS

Basically is luck (RPS)

mixed with how fast you are (APM).

Because these writers dont know shit.
Thors before Whores man
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32051 Posts
October 15 2010 13:49 GMT
#60
On October 15 2010 16:11 Klive5ive wrote:
Actually it's reasonably insightful.

At top level good scouting obviously throws his rock paper scissors theory out the window but it is true lots of people just play blind and guess.


Top level?? That's pretty much a rudimentary skill in any rts i think...

This is a pretty shitty article even for newbies
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
J7S
Profile Joined March 2009
Brazil179 Posts
October 15 2010 14:21 GMT
#61
On October 15 2010 22:42 Tropics wrote:
the person who wrote the article in the op is far smarter than the vast majority of the people in this thread

maybe if they actually read the article and considered what the words meant they'd realize he didnt mean "SC2 HAS A HARD COUNTER SYSTEM"


Yea. The article is quite good. It gives a good view of the psychological element of starcraft. Of course it misses some details, but the game is really complex and the objective of his post does not seem to be to explain the game in its entirety.

And still, it does not surprise me that most people here takes the comparison with RPS personally. They probably don't understand what metagame is even when metagame is a huge part of SC2.
"Mein Führer, I can walk!" - Dr. Strangelove
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
October 15 2010 14:29 GMT
#62
On October 15 2010 19:14 Hadraziel wrote:
It would be awesome if you could actually scout during rock paper scissors games
*prepare a paper*
*quick look*
Oh Noes! Scissors incoming!


lololololol who says you can't scout Rock/Paper/Scissors. While I agree that this writer's knowledge of RTS is much less than the size of the article. Remember your comparing 'low-level' RPS with 'high-level' Sc2. General consensus is that at low-level of anything, players are less likely to scout. So here's what could happen at top level of RPS:

-First, try this simple excercise, play a RPS game with yourself, and note first when you choose whether to go Rock, Paper or Scissors. Then note when (THIS IS THE KEY), you actually form the hand-shape. Supposedly Majority of people will make the hand-shape at the start of the final downward swing. That's your scouting right there. A trained eye will be able to scout this and thus be able to react to it. At PRO level, you can imagine the 'intense' RPS battles that goes on in the blink of an eye, wIth it's own fakeouts and techniques. Perhaps when the human race has evolved so the majority will have this kinda of reflex, we may see a site like TL dedicated to RPS with strat forums etc =P

Trying to find out where I read this from, but yea lol spent quite a few hours practicing this when I was 14ish =]
Yotta
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States270 Posts
October 15 2010 15:15 GMT
#63
On October 15 2010 23:29 me_viet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2010 19:14 Hadraziel wrote:
It would be awesome if you could actually scout during rock paper scissors games
*prepare a paper*
*quick look*
Oh Noes! Scissors incoming!


lololololol who says you can't scout Rock/Paper/Scissors. While I agree that this writer's knowledge of RTS is much less than the size of the article. Remember your comparing 'low-level' RPS with 'high-level' Sc2. General consensus is that at low-level of anything, players are less likely to scout. So here's what could happen at top level of RPS:

-First, try this simple excercise, play a RPS game with yourself, and note first when you choose whether to go Rock, Paper or Scissors. Then note when (THIS IS THE KEY), you actually form the hand-shape. Supposedly Majority of people will make the hand-shape at the start of the final downward swing. That's your scouting right there. A trained eye will be able to scout this and thus be able to react to it. At PRO level, you can imagine the 'intense' RPS battles that goes on in the blink of an eye, wIth it's own fakeouts and techniques. Perhaps when the human race has evolved so the majority will have this kinda of reflex, we may see a site like TL dedicated to RPS with strat forums etc =P

Trying to find out where I read this from, but yea lol spent quite a few hours practicing this when I was 14ish =]
What is stopping players from making the hand shape at the latest moment allowed? Certainly if people are able to interpret another player's hand gesture and react accordingly within the allowed time they'd be able to control their hand to not make a shape before then.
Ganondorf
Profile Joined April 2010
Italy600 Posts
October 15 2010 15:32 GMT
#64
Not this again, some website/blog writer playing a game for 1 hour and then writing an article about it that just shows only one thing: he doesn't know the game.
Empress
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada29 Posts
October 15 2010 15:44 GMT
#65
wut? was too busy lookin at the free cheese sticks ad
I mustn't run away
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
October 15 2010 15:59 GMT
#66
On October 15 2010 22:40 canikizu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2010 16:10 AdrenalinG wrote:
On October 15 2010 16:05 Rikstah wrote:
Sounds like hes trying to sound smart but hes basically said nothing and come to no useful conclusion.

terran = rock
protoss = scissors
zerg = paper


So
Z > T?


No, it means that zerg armies are paper, terran armies are very sturdy and protoss can cut through armies very quickly with their high tech. It's also a well hidden RPS whine about how rock is overpowered
Trucy Wright is hot
Achilles
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada385 Posts
October 15 2010 16:01 GMT
#67
Can't say I've ever seen scissors outplay rock..
[rS]Gluske // http://www.rsgaming.com // Troku[tC]
out4blood
Profile Joined July 2010
United States313 Posts
October 15 2010 16:05 GMT
#68
While the author is relatively clueless about SC2, the analogy about its relation to RPS is pretty accurate.

SC2 is essentially an elaborate game of RPS where you can scout what they are about to throw and there is a skill requirement to throwing. If I scout you making pure marauders, I can win by adding soe void rays. But on the other hand, if you are just better and can make a crapton more marauders, you might win anyway.

And the author's use of the word "metagame" just goes to show that how everyone else in the world (even the gaming world) uses it is different than how some TL users think it ought to be.
http://sc2sig.com/s/us/1228872-1.png?1290726543
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