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On October 01 2010 17:20 Nightfall.589 wrote:
One, with hybrids, 2 specs per class are PvP viable.
Pally - Ret, Holy, Protret
Shammy - Resto, ele, enhance
Warr - Arms, Prot
Rogue - mut, sub
Mage - Frost, arcane (in wizardcleaves)
Hunter - all 3 specs in various comps
Lock - destro, afflic
Druid - all 3 specs currently viable
Priest - shadow, disc
DK - pick a season, pick a spec du jour
By "viable" I mean "several people have made Glad running that spec".
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What? Are you expecting them to make a patch with similar effect as the 1.04 or 1.08 of SC this soon after SC2 has come out? It's literally been 2 months. I would guess it would be another 4-6 months before a huge balance changing patch came out and even then all the changes wouldn't be fully understood until months after that.
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What bugs me is that people claim that Blizzard balanced Broodwar, they helped but it was the maps that did the most legwork. People give Blizzard too much credit. Blizzard did come up with Steppes of War remember.
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They're probably also saving massive changes to Zerg for the Zerg expansion. Remember, there's going to be two Brood Wars for this one. There's really no reason for massive rebalancing for such a nascent game. They'll do small nerfs/buffs every few months, improving balance in baby steps.
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On October 01 2010 17:37 Ordained wrote:
What bugs me is that people claim that Blizzard balanced Broodwar, they helped but it was the maps that did the most legwork. People give Blizzard too much credit. Blizzard did come up with Steppes of War remember.
What's wrong with Steppes of War? Yeah, it has a short rush distance but the natural is incredibly easy to take, drops are easy to guard against if you take your third, and the line of sight variations in the middle make for interesting fights.
The rush distance is longer than Metalopolis close ground positions.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On October 01 2010 14:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:41 Pawshter wrote:
What proof do you have that wc3 is unbalanced? Unsupported statements. Well, Undead has an extremely difficult matchup vs Orcs... I think that counts as unbalanced.
The last time I saw pro stats on War3 there was more than one matchup that was at 60% but I forget where I saw those numbers
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On October 01 2010 17:40 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 17:37 Ordained wrote:
What bugs me is that people claim that Blizzard balanced Broodwar, they helped but it was the maps that did the most legwork. People give Blizzard too much credit. Blizzard did come up with Steppes of War remember. What's wrong with Steppes of War? Yeah, it has a short rush distance but the natural is incredibly easy to take, drops are easy to guard against if you take your third, and the line of sight variations in the middle make for interesting fights. The rush distance is longer than Metalopolis close ground positions.
Well to me Steppes of War just feels like this
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 01 2010 17:40 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 17:37 Ordained wrote:
What bugs me is that people claim that Blizzard balanced Broodwar, they helped but it was the maps that did the most legwork. People give Blizzard too much credit. Blizzard did come up with Steppes of War remember. What's wrong with Steppes of War? Yeah, it has a short rush distance but the natural is incredibly easy to take, drops are easy to guard against if you take your third, and the line of sight variations in the middle make for interesting fights. The rush distance is longer than Metalopolis close ground positions.
Have you seen the thread about how imbalanced it is just design wise, Tanks can sit at the bottom and shoot in further against someone on the bottom. If you are on the bottom your nat can be walked up on by Colloxen but top can not. (Talking right by the minerals.)
Metalopolis is the best map Blizzard has for sc2, but that is not saying much. Yes, the rush distance is faster on Metalopolis close positions, but at least you have to scout.
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SO, whats the timestamps on the patch that turned scbw from slightly unbalanced to balanced?
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..and yet SC:BW still isn't "balanced" by Blizzard standards today.
Scouts are a joke.
Carriers aren't "viable"
Battlecruisers aren't "viable"
Queen.. lol queen.
Blizzard right now is working towards a "sweet spot" of perfect balance with everything.
The majority of SC:BW balance happened by complete chance on Blizzard's part, so they left it that way and were afraid to touch it.
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On October 01 2010 18:03 Snowfield wrote:
SO, whats the timestamps on the patch that turned scbw from slightly unbalanced to balanced?
It wasn't a patch, it was the metagame and kespa maps.
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It's obvious that major sweeping changes are needed and we're not getting them. Extrapolating from the OP, it's easy to tell that Blizzard needs to realize that BW was not balanced by slowly tweaking little things. Nevermind that it took 2 1/2 years to make the big balance patch (the game evolution was very slow back then, and people didn't have a good grasp of RTS.)
In addition, SC BW is much much much more limited by what you as a player can do because of the interface and AI. The skill cap to executing basically any strategy is very high. In SC2 the skill cap to executing earlygame builds is extremely low by comparison.
It's actually a boon that SC2 is easier to play, because it becomes much easier to say "this is imbalanced" rather than "you can play better here."
Blizzard needs to get the ball rollin on balance. I think once a month is reasonable.
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On October 01 2010 17:27 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 17:20 Nightfall.589 wrote:
One, with hybrids, 2 specs per class are PvP viable. Pally - Ret, Holy, Protret Shammy - Resto, ele, enhance Warr - Arms, Prot Rogue - mut, sub Mage - Frost, arcane (in wizardcleaves) Hunter - all 3 specs in various comps Lock - destro, afflic Druid - all 3 specs currently viable Priest - shadow, disc DK - pick a season, pick a spec du jour By "viable" I mean "several people have made Glad running that spec".
Gladiator in wow arena is relative to the battlegroup and the season. The balance in WOTLK is atrocious.
Some classes have 3 viable specs in certain comps, then there are other classes that were extremely op and then had like 1% representation on sk100 despite being the most played class.
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I think the OP's argument would be made viable in a year or so.
Of course times have changed, technology is better, the game's understanding has become a lot more common, but that doesn't mean the volatility of player skills and ingenuity is the same at all. Blizzard and the community will have to wait a while before we see things that are blatantly imbalanced. People may yell terran imbalance and zerg UP all they want, but only time will tell if they truly are.
It took 2 1/2 years to balance starcraft AFTER BW came out. Doesn't this only imply that it will take some amount of time after the last expansion of SC2 for this game to be balanced?
Lets stop these threads and just be patient
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On October 01 2010 18:37 MusiK wrote:
I think the OP's argument would be made viable in a year or so.
Of course times have changed, technology is better, the game's understanding has become a lot more common, but that doesn't mean the volatility of player skills and ingenuity is the same at all. Blizzard and the community will have to wait a while before we see things that are blatantly imbalanced. People may yell terran imbalance and zerg UP all they want, but only time will tell if they truly are.
It took 2 1/2 years to balance starcraft AFTER BW came out. Doesn't this only imply that it will take some amount of time after the last expansion of SC2 for this game to be balanced?
Lets stop these threads and just be patient
No ones asking for perfect balance.
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I forgot how many buffs Terran got over the patches in SC1.
It's a bit like reading the sc2 beta notes.
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Something to note that Day9 mentioned rather recently.. They're releasing the game in 3 parts. This allows for a ton of easy fixes to the balance of the game. This is a very long term project, I can really see things being very very balanced by the time the last expansion hits. I'd rather they make slow changes, than to rush it and end up completely changing parts of the game that are fine as is.
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On October 01 2010 07:41 Pawshter wrote:
What proof do you have that wc3 is unbalanced? Unsupported statements.
http://www.sk-gaming.com/wc3/
Note the Undead vs Orc win / loss ratio on the right hand side - it's been like that for 2 years and people have been screaming - no one gives a shit.
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I've been wanting to write up a big post on all the things that bug me but they take so much effort. 
Here's the gist: if you could put the skill of a player in to a single number between 0 and 100, it's my belief that say a 25/100 skill Terran player, can beat a 30/100 skill Protoss and a 35/100 Zerg player. That of course sounds a bit silly but that's the best way I can put it. (For reference I'm a scrub - but I can and do recognise good play when I see it - I'm a good spectator)
Which race has an expansion with it's own built in defence? Ok cool.
Which race is the only race where all the workers at the expansion can repair it if it gets in trouble? Oh
Which race can get supply blocked and solve the problem instantly?
Which race can get it's workers all raped and temorarily solve the economic problem instantly?
Which race can not have detection and solve the problem instantly?
Which race pays so little for it's tier 1 upgrades?
Which race gets free healing on it's transport?
Which race has the longest range on it's air to air unit?
Now if you step back for a moment and don't look at the lore and you don't think of it as Terran, Protoss and Zerg - you simply look at the actual gameplay design from a pure design perspective
You have things like - invisible units for each team
flying units for each team
detection units for each team
economic macro abilities for each team
etc etc and so on - now if you think from that pure design perspective angle only and think - ok what would be best in X situation or Y situation, I seriously have a hard time not thinking of Terran each and every time.
Why is the thor and marine and viking so good at anti air? Do the other teams have such variety?
Why does marauder slow down every god damn thing in the game?
Ultimately I can completely see how Dustin said (and I quote what I recall) "we just threw units in there to be cool and worked around balance from there" - doesn't sound well thought out to me in the slightest. Tweaking numbers doesn't help when there's fundamental design flaws.
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By "viable" I mean "several people have made Glad running that spec".
That is over several seasons - not all in a particular season, or even the most recent one. Prot warriors, Prot paladins, two specs of DKs, Surv (?) hunters, Arcane Mages, Sub/Combat rogues are not viable in the current season, mostly due to nerfs.
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