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I read before that creep spread by looking for the next empty space and putting creep there. This is why putting multiple creep tumors down increases creep spread speed because they individually find an empty place to put down creep. Anyways I figured out a way you could use this to spread creep faster, or more specifically further.
I would consider a large goal of creep spread is to connect bases, either your bases or your base to your opponents base. So width of creep is less important than length.
Anyways creep from a tumor can only spread to normal terrain on the same height. So it doesn't spread to impassible/unmovable terrain, or high ground/low ground. Since creep can't spread to these area's, this means that if you build near them creep will spread more quickly. So if you build a creep tumor right next to a cliff the creep will fill out faster than if you built it on open ground. Since the tumor will see that it can't build on the illegal spaces and creep the next legal location.
This means that if you want to connect two bases as fast as possible you should build as close to cliffs as possible. Since the creep will build more forward instead of sideways.
The 2 creep's were started at same time, the one on the left is next to a wall and the one on the right is on open ground. Since the one on the wall has to spread less creep it spread faster.
![[image loading]](http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6798/creepspread.png)
This is a replay of me using this trick
Creep Spread Replay
Edit: 1 potential problem with this trick is that creep can spawn on unconnected high ground if there is creep there, which means that if you are hugging a cliff that starts with a ramp your creep will follow you all the way up the ramp and along the top of the cliff as you hug the wall. In order to prevent this you would have to build the first creep tumor away from the ramp then hug the wall afterwords to prevent creep from going to high ground and slowing creep spread.
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Neat! It's intuitive, but something I never really thought of. Are there any maps where this is really practical? Blistering Sands would be the one that comes to mind for me (main and natural). I suppose it could also work for getting horizontal positions connected in Metalopolis.
It's a tough trade-off though. You sacrifice width and vision for faster spread.
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Or you could just build an extra queen.
And creep does spread up/down cliffs you just need vision on a ramp.
User was warned for this post
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Hmm, I thought creep did spread up and down cliffs, but maybe that's just if its near a ramp? Not sure. Anyone confirm this?
Nm, beat me to it and answered my question before it was asked, nice.
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On September 15 2010 05:59 blitzkrieger wrote:
Or you could just build an extra queen.
And creep does spread up/down cliffs you just need vision on a ramp.
Making an extra queen has nothing to do with connecting bases faster.
Also you don't need a ramp. Creep will spread to any path-able terrain within the turmor's radius that is adjacent to a spot of creep (bolded for being the concise rule that explains a lot of subtle behavior)... The cliff is a 1 tile barrier that cannot contain creep so that's why it doesn't naturally transition from high to low ground. This is also how overlord creep spreads which is why an overlord over a cliff tile will not spread any creep at all.
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On September 15 2010 05:59 blitzkrieger wrote:
Or you could just build an extra queen.
And creep does spread up/down cliffs you just need vision on a ramp.
The point is that its a faster way to spread creep so you wont need an extra queen, or you can have an extra queen and still do this and it would be even faster..
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blitzkrieger, creep only spreads to high ground through ramps, it wont spread to high ground just because you have vision, in fact vision has no impact on creep spread. Vision only effects where you can place down a tumor.
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creep spreads up/down cliffs/ over canyons when you poop it with an overlord for a short time
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If you have an overlord you need to start the creep spread on the are before it will spread. If that makes sense.
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Don't you have 6 colonies on the left path and only 5 on the right?
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comrh: I waited for the creep to fill out of be almost as far forward as possible before putting down the next tumor, since the creep next to the wall spread faster I was able to put down the next tumor sooner. This is why the left had more tumors than the right.
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Really cool man. Thank you for taking the time to post about your findings.
Gonna try it out on a couple of maps to see how I can use it.
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Good find, not sure how practical it is on Blizz' current maps though.
Great for reinforcing units faster, but remember that the creep also has to be wide enough so that the swarm can carry on their usual flanking/surrounding/tomfoolery. Maybe once its near the base then make a big creep circle where the zerg would favorably engage?
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Awesome, thank you for sharing.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Holy shit. This makes so much sense but I have never thought about it. Wow. This will certainly become a hallmark of high level play once it spreads.
Fantastic thread.
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On September 15 2010 06:10 comrh wrote:
Don't you have 6 colonies on the left path and only 5 on the right?
yea... and also your right-hand creep path also angles out and then angles back in, making the total distance longer than it actually appears while the left hand creep tumor just goes in a straight line?
edit: I guess the point is that the creep spreads fast enough so that by the time time cooldown is ready you can place another one at maximum range?
On September 15 2010 06:17 Chill wrote:
once it spreads.
I see what you did there. ^^
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On September 15 2010 06:18 DTown wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 06:10 comrh wrote:
Don't you have 6 colonies on the left path and only 5 on the right? yea... and also your right-hand creep path also angles out and then angles back in, making the total distance longer than it actually appears while the left hand creep tumor just goes in a straight line? edit: I guess the point is that the creep spreads fast enough so that by the time time cooldown is ready you can place another one at maximum range? I see what you did there. ^^
Yeah I think there'd be two ways to show it.
1. Spread only at max range and show how against cliff gets you more tumors faster. (This is what the OP did)
2. Spread as often as possible and compare distance of tumors.
I believe the OP, but would like to see 2 straight down tumors spread using method 2 to show the difference.
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I'm not sure why you'd want to wait until each tumor has maxed out. I just spread as soon the tumor timer comes up. It's rarely maxed out but then it spreads faster. This would mean you'd have the same number of tumors on both sides. Your reasoning if sound would result in a similar differential in movement if it is better, but you'd be further in the same time frame.
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Very interesting!
So in terms of giving you a really fast pathway into the opponents base, you want to keep near cliffs, but in terms of getting a good area to battle on you probably still want to stay away from them so that you get the most surface area to fight on and get better concaves and surrounds.
Follow up test:
I would say based on this and what I've observed it's like 99% going to be the case, but how about with overlords? If you're trying to set up a path faster do you also want to set up your overlords near cliffs? Also means that the habit I have of spreading the overlords all at once might be less than ideal and I might want to send more overlords to set up a path then bring some back (so that the overlords aren't exposed) and setting up creep areas probably desires more overlords than I had been using.
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Odd, the replay says it makes reference to a mod that is no longer available....
Interesting concept though, and you can just use ovies to fill in the gaps whenever.
Edit: hmm, replay works now, werid
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An odd but related question I have not tested and I hope someone has an answer too. What if you have an overlord spreading creep out and you plop a tumor in the middle of it. If you move the overlord will the creep be fully formed (assuming the vomit was covering that much area)?
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Is anyone else unable to watch the replay?
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There was this thread as well that had a nice explanation to the mechanics of creep spreading: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=134665
So yea, by having a smaller "square" to fill up alogn the edges, creep spread more quickly. I don't know if any of the numbers in that other posts can help with any stuff here 
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As an addition to the OP. Creep will spread up cliffs if you use an overlord to puke creep for just a second, the creep will spread up the cliff from the creep tumor and stay there permanently. This is very useful to jump creep not only up cliffs but also across chasms. For example, on LT if you get an overlord to drop a tiny bit of creep on the natural high ground you can put a creep tumor there, then using the overlord again you can jump it across to the island expansion. I mean, maybe its common knowledge that you can "jump" creep up cliffs like that but I havent really seen anyone do it.
![[image loading]](http://u.snelhest.org/i/2010/09/14_5931.jpg)
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On September 15 2010 06:13 oesis wrote:
comrh: I waited for the creep to fill out of be almost as far forward as possible before putting down the next tumor, since the creep next to the wall spread faster I was able to put down the next tumor sooner. This is why the left had more tumors than the right.
Imo you shouldn't have done that, instead immediately place another tumor as soon as cooldown finishes.
Ps. Interesting post above me.
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On September 15 2010 06:02 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 05:59 blitzkrieger wrote:
Or you could just build an extra queen.
And creep does spread up/down cliffs you just need vision on a ramp. Making an extra queen has nothing to do with connecting bases faster. Also you don't need a ramp. Creep will spread to any path-able terrain within the turmor's radius that is adjacent to a spot of creep (bolded for being the concise rule that explains a lot of subtle behavior)... The cliff is a 1 tile barrier that cannot contain creep so that's why it doesn't naturally transition from high to low ground. This is also how overlord creep spreads which is why an overlord over a cliff tile will not spread any creep at all.
Yeh so that means, you need a ramp, to make the creep spread, which is what I said.
If you build 3 creep tumors the creep spreads 3x as fast meaning its easy to cover the entire map quickly. Extra queens are useful anyway. 150 minerals to get vision of a huge area of the map and have your units be faster? Sounds like a good deal.
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On September 15 2010 06:38 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 06:02 Logo wrote:On September 15 2010 05:59 blitzkrieger wrote:
Or you could just build an extra queen.
And creep does spread up/down cliffs you just need vision on a ramp. Making an extra queen has nothing to do with connecting bases faster. Also you don't need a ramp. Creep will spread to any path-able terrain within the turmor's radius that is adjacent to a spot of creep (bolded for being the concise rule that explains a lot of subtle behavior)... The cliff is a 1 tile barrier that cannot contain creep so that's why it doesn't naturally transition from high to low ground. This is also how overlord creep spreads which is why an overlord over a cliff tile will not spread any creep at all. Yeh so that means, you need a ramp, to make the creep spread, which is what I said.
Check two posts above you to see why you are incorrect.
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On September 15 2010 06:33 Wihl wrote:+ Show Spoiler +As an addition to the OP. Creep will spread up cliffs if you use an overlord to puke creep for just a second, the creep will spread up the cliff from the creep tumor and stay there permanently. This is very useful to jump creep not only up cliffs but also across chasms. For example, on LT if you get an overlord to drop a tiny bit of creep on the natural high ground you can put a creep tumor there, then using the overlord again you can jump it across to the island expansion. I mean, maybe its common knowledge that you can "jump" creep up cliffs like that but I havent really seen anyone do it.
Basically any creep that is within the creep tumours range will spead. Regardless of what is between the creep and the tumour. This is why it appears creep spreads down/up cliffs.
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On September 15 2010 06:38 blitzkrieger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 06:02 Logo wrote:On September 15 2010 05:59 blitzkrieger wrote:
Or you could just build an extra queen.
And creep does spread up/down cliffs you just need vision on a ramp. Making an extra queen has nothing to do with connecting bases faster. Also you don't need a ramp. Creep will spread to any path-able terrain within the turmor's radius that is adjacent to a spot of creep (bolded for being the concise rule that explains a lot of subtle behavior)... The cliff is a 1 tile barrier that cannot contain creep so that's why it doesn't naturally transition from high to low ground. This is also how overlord creep spreads which is why an overlord over a cliff tile will not spread any creep at all. Yeh so that means, you need a ramp, to make the creep spread, which is what I said. If you build 3 creep tumors the creep spreads 3x as fast meaning its easy to cover the entire map quickly. Extra queens are useful anyway. 150 minerals to get vision of a huge area of the map and have your units be faster? Sounds like a good deal.
No it doesn't mean that at all. It means exactly what I said, nothing more or less. I don't think there's any other way to completely explain the tumor's spread without missing information or adding in extra clarification.
Ramps are not the only way to have a spot of creep on a different height of ground within the range of a tumor. For instance canceled hatcheries, existing hatcheries, overlords, other tumors & nydus worms can all cause spread across gaps or height changes.
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Good to see all the little tiny tricks starting to come out. hopefully more and more of these will be found!
I'll definitely make use of this on maps like scrap station, where if you hug the inside edge of the rock-blocked bridge you'll get creep very quickly to their base.
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use ov to make creep on cliffs. The tumor will feed the creep. You can then place new tumor on high/low ground.
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On September 15 2010 06:45 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 06:38 blitzkrieger wrote:On September 15 2010 06:02 Logo wrote:On September 15 2010 05:59 blitzkrieger wrote:
Or you could just build an extra queen.
And creep does spread up/down cliffs you just need vision on a ramp. Making an extra queen has nothing to do with connecting bases faster. Also you don't need a ramp. Creep will spread to any path-able terrain within the turmor's radius that is adjacent to a spot of creep (bolded for being the concise rule that explains a lot of subtle behavior)... The cliff is a 1 tile barrier that cannot contain creep so that's why it doesn't naturally transition from high to low ground. This is also how overlord creep spreads which is why an overlord over a cliff tile will not spread any creep at all. Yeh so that means, you need a ramp, to make the creep spread, which is what I said. If you build 3 creep tumors the creep spreads 3x as fast meaning its easy to cover the entire map quickly. Extra queens are useful anyway. 150 minerals to get vision of a huge area of the map and have your units be faster? Sounds like a good deal. No it doesn't mean that at all. It means exactly what I said, nothing more or less. I don't think there's any other way to completely explain the tumor's spread without missing information or adding in extra clarification. Ramps are not the only way to have a spot of creep on a different height of ground within the range of a tumor. For instance canceled hatcheries, existing hatcheries, overlords, other tumors & nydus worms can all cause spread across gaps or height changes.
...I know all this... but you aren't going to have lair up fast enough to spread the creep in any other way than placing more tumors. If you wanna get a ton of creep spread making more tumors is the best way because it only cost minerals which is more important than wasting gas on w/e else and queens are useful. U can get a 3rd queen at your 1st expo easy and have tons of creep.
Plus I don't think there is a map where spreading creep along a cliff is going to be faster or better than a straight line and getting another queen will help you defend tumors, nor does a smaller strip of creep help get a concave.
But an extra tumor = faster creep production so the more you have the faster you flood that area with creep and can place more as far as possible and spread creep fast, over a large area, and cheaply. If someone can post a use for this maybe it mattersbut it doesn't look likei t.
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On September 15 2010 06:10 comrh wrote:
Don't you have 6 colonies on the left path and only 5 on the right?
That's irrelevant since the sixth tumor hasn't started spreading creep. So technically it's 5 tumors on both sides.
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arent all these creep tricks already pretty old?!
and idk why ppl always talk about high level play, the best trick so far was prolly fazing and i didnt see a single person utilize that in a high level game.
and all these minor tricks like these gateway-warpgate transform,auto inject queen, super charge lots, return minerals trick, stalife drop and what not else we had
in every thread millions of person write cool trick, so useful, will become standard etc... and i didnt see it once...
is it like fashion atm to open a thread for every single thing someone discovers to call it a "trick" and even name it after himself..?!
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On September 15 2010 07:16 Lucius2 wrote:
arent all these creep tricks already pretty old?!
and idk why ppl always talk about high level play, the best trick so far was prolly fazing and i didnt see a single person utilize that in a high level game.
and all these minor tricks like these gateway-warpgate transform,auto inject queen, super charge lots, return minerals trick, stalife drop and what not else we had
in every thread millions of person write cool trick, so useful, will become standard etc... and i didnt see it once...
is it like fashion atm to open a thread for every single thing someone discovers to call it a "trick" and even name it after himself..?!
It doesn't happen overnight 
Also, awesome find!
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On September 15 2010 07:16 Lucius2 wrote:
arent all these creep tricks already pretty old?!
and idk why ppl always talk about high level play, the best trick so far was prolly fazing and i didnt see a single person utilize that in a high level game.
and all these minor tricks like these gateway-warpgate transform,auto inject queen, super charge lots, return minerals trick, stalife drop and what not else we had
in every thread millions of person write cool trick, so useful, will become standard etc... and i didnt see it once...
is it like fashion atm to open a thread for every single thing someone discovers to call it a "trick" and even name it after himself..?!
What do you expect? That every single of these little things will completely revolutionize the game?
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magic boxes get used 100% of the time now in muta vs. thor, so thats one "trick" which definitely caught on.
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well thats true, i forgot about the magic box, but still
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Doesn't this decrease the surface area by placing the tumors next to un-spreadable terrain?
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On September 15 2010 07:16 Lucius2 wrote:
arent all these creep tricks already pretty old?!
and idk why ppl always talk about high level play, the best trick so far was prolly fazing and i didnt see a single person utilize that in a high level game.
and all these minor tricks like these gateway-warpgate transform,auto inject queen, super charge lots, return minerals trick, stalife drop and what not else we had
in every thread millions of person write cool trick, so useful, will become standard etc... and i didnt see it once...
is it like fashion atm to open a thread for every single thing someone discovers to call it a "trick" and even name it after himself..?!
TLO used the stalife drop in a GSL game.
The "return minerals trick" WILL, 100%, become standard for high lvl play if it isn't patched out. An edge that has to do with getting money faster at stages of the game, namely the beginning (tho terran will abuse it with mules forever), necessarily has to become standard since that is what competitive gaming is all about.
I for one really enjoy seeing all these tricks popping up. People are trying to innovate and find that next "amazing" thing like muta stacking was in BW. This is what should happen when a new game comes out and the fact you're trying to stifle it is both pathetic (especially on a SC forum) and counter-productive.
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On September 15 2010 05:54 oesis wrote:
I read before that creep spread by looking for the next empty space and putting creep there. This is why putting multiple creep tumors down increases creep spread speed because they individually find an empty place to put down creep. Anyways I figured out a way you could use this to spread creep faster, or more specifically further.
I don't play Zerg and I didn't know about this part of the creep mechanics (except that more tumors = faster creep regeneration).
Creep regenerates faster with more creep-regenerating sources? Awesome! Grab a group of 2-3 Overlords and generate creep next to a spawning tumor, on creep-free ground into the direction you want to place your next tumor. The creep will now spread blazing fast. I just tested it with a group of 3 Overlords. The creep pretty much reaches its maximum radius from the tumor once its cooldown is finished, ready to turbo-spread the next tumor.
Why isn't this used more on Pro level? I have seen some fancy tricks of TLO with Overlords, a Queen and Tumors in a game on Delta Quadrant, but that's it. I have never seen Pros abusing a group of Overlords to "pimp" their tumors.
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Or you could make 2 creep tumors beside each other. It makes creep spread faster, but u do waste more queen energy.
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Jeez its so simple now you look at it, thank you for bringing that to our attention im definatly going to try to incorporate this more.
On September 15 2010 08:28 AcePioneer wrote:
Or you could make 2 creep tumors beside each other. It makes creep spread faster, but u do waste more queen energy.
This is about maxmising creep spread from a single tumour or group not 'just make more'.
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Neato. You should make an identical thread so the idea spreads faster.
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On September 15 2010 08:28 AcePioneer wrote:
Or you could make 2 creep tumors beside each other. It makes creep spread faster, but u do waste more queen energy.
Creep tumors spread into every direction (thus slowing down the advancement) and cost energy.
Overlords must be built anyway and you can spread the creep specifically into the direction you want to go. Don't nail me on the numbers, but it's roughly two times as fast to spread tumors into the direction you want with decent Overlord support.
Why is hasn't been utilized by Pros so far is a mystery for me, especially considering it isn't very micro-intensive to do so.
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wow, this is really smart! good job!!!
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Amazing thread. It's always refreshing to see good threads in the SC2 section
Keep it up!
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Actually theres a video and a creep tumor does spread to higher and lower terrain if you drop some there with an overlord for only a second.
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On September 15 2010 07:36 Lokian wrote:
Doesn't this decrease the surface area by placing the tumors next to un-spreadable terrain?
Yes. Which is precisely why it spreads faster. You don't need surface area if you just want a highway.
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so intuitive, but just one of those things that you never think about.
and facepalm when you do. thanks dude, this is a great find!
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I guess this is kind of useful, but two tumors seem to be about 80% of maximum efficiency anyway (on completely open ground, probably 90-10% on somewhat restricted areas), 3 being about 90-100%
Usually zergs tend to get 3 queens for 2 hatcheries anyway (or am I mistaken?), so that makes for 2 creep tumors quite fast.
Anyway, still interesting to know, and can definitely be helpful in some situations.
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Wow, will try this out for sure!
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I've seen sen doing this a lot. he builds 3 creep tumors next to each other and they spread the creep really freaking fast. seems to work really well. it's like perfectly timed out in a way that when the 3 tumors are finished and can pop out another tumor, the previous creep has spread completely.
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I wanted to bump this thread because I realized a second implication of the creep mechanic the other day (after realizing the first independently, of course).
High ground cliffs edges are IDEAL for creep tumor placement. Why?
- Vision/concealment benefits (you can see over the cliff edges without ground units being able to see the tumor/creep spread.
- Faster spreading (splitting it in half means it's only got ONE direction to go in: away from the existing creep)
- Spillover
Now, the important part is the last part I noticed the other day. Eventually, while following the high ground cliff's edge, you reach the ramp. When you reach the ramp, the creep will spread down the ramp and ALL THE WAY BACK WITHIN RANGE OF YOUR EXISTING TUMORS. I can't take screen shots at the moment, but it's cool that you basically DOUBLE the length of your creep highway in no time.
Maps that I can think of offhand where this might be useful?
- Jungle basin (they'll expect creep at your expansion, but then you move past the rocks and up to the high-ground third and it'll piggy-back all the way back along the other tumors when you get to the ramp.
... actually, I'm only going to list Jungle basin 'cause it seems to me that that's the only map that would really make it useful (in 1 player anyway, I discovered this on a free-for all, and it was useless because... well, pretty much anything you do in free for all is useless what a lame game type).
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You can cause spillover at lair with an overlord as well. Just spit 1 square of creep on the low ground within the tumor's range and the tumor will begin spreading creep at the lowground. I tend to do this a lot on maps like metalopolis and LT.
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I think your heart is in the right spot except that Zerg need to be spread out to get effective DPS. What good does faster creep do you if you have to run your Hydras and Roaches single file into whatever OP build* the Terran is using?
*No longer valid, maybe, since Blizz neutered Reapers (which were actually interesting). Still valid, maybe, since Blizz refuses to acknowledge that Mules are ridiculously OP
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This is fantastic and makes a lot of sense. Good find! You can actually fill out the old tumors later too with an overlord. Spread creep to one of the ridges above or below the tumor, and pretty much all the rest will fill up on its own with some time..
Overall, I think using an overlord+tumor would be better than spreading along the edges, but this is less APM intensive and especially useful in the early game when your creep hasn't spread very far yet.
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Huh, interesting. I didn't know about that, but it sort of makes sense.
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very nice find, didn't know about this, but i don't know exactly how useful this will be, the problem is while the creep spreads faster, you get less overall creep for each tumor, this seems nice for some situational maps in which you could connect your expansions together with a thin layer of creep near a cliff but post lair you definitely want an overlord to spew creep in front of each tumor to get the most efficient spread
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As interesting as this is, I'm not sure that it's very advantageous because:
1) It means your forces have to walk along cliffs to take advantage from the creep. This is less an issue if your creeping on the high ground side, but quite an issue if creeping on the low ground side. It seems like just opening yourself up for cliff abuse.
2) Having 1 overlord vomiting ahead of your creep tumors negates the need for this technique entirely.
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while interesting, I don't see this being that useful. putting down 4 creep tumors is still way faster and more practical
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Ya I always have an overlord where I want the tumor to be next once i get to lair
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"simple math" here
block more than 180 degrees of the creep spread and the creep tumor will spread as fast as 2 tumors would in any single direction.
block more than 180 degrees and it's faster still, but you won't be able to pull it off cooldown in time, so try to block <180 degrees with your cliffs.
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EPT
