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On August 28 2010 21:19 Dfgj wrote:
Why are we even discussing Archons in a matchup where Ghosts are a massive key unit and EMP is a huge factor (even if we were to disregard the gas/templar cost).
That does not sound like a top-tier tactic.
EMP sucks up 100 Shield (not all the shield).
Archons are bigger than most units, and from what i understood, an EMP can only hit 1 Archon (its big enough to soak up the whole area of effect).
So, you could either loose shield on 3 units, like 50 shield per unit, so 150 (and most of the time it will be more) or 100 on 1 Archon.
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On August 28 2010 20:28 Melt wrote:
Lings just rape Marauders... Hydras aswell...
Marauders are cost effective vs hydras and thats even without stim...
With stim marauders pwn hydras hard.
Thats why even with the tank nerf I really doubt hydras are viable in most ZvTs. As they aren't cost effective vs thors, marines, marauders, helions, reapers, (and siege tanks still I guess) also raven PDF lol. They might finally be cost effective vs BCs now, and naturally they are good vs banshees and vikings. But honestly going for spire for mutas vs banshee, viking and at the same time lots of other T units and corrupters for BC if that happens seems like a MUCH better idea in every game.
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I was about to say that Hydras have more range but I just looked it up. Upgraded hydras have 6 range, same as a marauder by default. I think 5 range would be nice and fair for the marauder and then they can keep that overpowered +50% dmg stim of theirs...
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On August 28 2010 21:14 shannn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:06 DreXxiN wrote:On August 28 2010 21:03 greyfox999 wrote:On August 28 2010 21:01 DreXxiN wrote:
MAN ARCHONS ARE GONNA BE SO GOOD VS TANKS WITH ALL THOSE SHIE....Oh fuck I got EMP'd. We're gonna play this game now? OK... Good thing I used Feedback on his Ghosts with my spaced out templars! Now to kill those tanks =D Wow...really? I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons? (Which costs 2 templar by the way). Give me a break... You're gonna waste emp on archons for their shields yes but ur still forgetting how many uses archons has. The emp'ed archons means no emp on rest of army that is more vulnerable to siege tanks. HT are being made first for the purpose of storm against bio ball or feedback. After it's usage it's made to archons. So the main reason the HT's are already being made is for ghosts/bio balls. After it's done it can soak up the damage from tanks which makes in my opinion archons more viable than it currently is. You make it sound like we have to go mass archons which isn't really the case. A HT on full energy can feedback 4 times so u just need 1-2 HT max for feedback (you're not massing ghosts if u have so many tanks as I quote you:"I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons?" which can be said the same to you. Cost effective HT will be more viable against T siege tanks/ghosts/banshees/bio balls.
@shann, i think what the terran guy means is that his ghost's range is superior to your HT and they can cloak... No more storms/feedback
and with this I finally realized the irony of SC's basic lore: The protoss are a technologically advanced race that have aeons of knowledge and tech, and yet, they get raped by humans on drugs.
I rest my case.
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On August 28 2010 21:29 Exathor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:14 shannn wrote:On August 28 2010 21:06 DreXxiN wrote:On August 28 2010 21:03 greyfox999 wrote:On August 28 2010 21:01 DreXxiN wrote:
MAN ARCHONS ARE GONNA BE SO GOOD VS TANKS WITH ALL THOSE SHIE....Oh fuck I got EMP'd. We're gonna play this game now? OK... Good thing I used Feedback on his Ghosts with my spaced out templars! Now to kill those tanks =D Wow...really? I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons? (Which costs 2 templar by the way). Give me a break... You're gonna waste emp on archons for their shields yes but ur still forgetting how many uses archons has. The emp'ed archons means no emp on rest of army that is more vulnerable to siege tanks. HT are being made first for the purpose of storm against bio ball or feedback. After it's usage it's made to archons. So the main reason the HT's are already being made is for ghosts/bio balls. After it's done it can soak up the damage from tanks which makes in my opinion archons more viable than it currently is. You make it sound like we have to go mass archons which isn't really the case. A HT on full energy can feedback 4 times so u just need 1-2 HT max for feedback (you're not massing ghosts if u have so many tanks as I quote you:"I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons?" which can be said the same to you. Cost effective HT will be more viable against T siege tanks/ghosts/banshees/bio balls. @shann, i think what the terran guy means is that his ghost's range is superior to your HT and they can cloak... No more storms/feedback and with this I finally realized the irony of SC's basic lore: The protoss are a technologically advanced race that have aeons of knowledge and tech, and yet, they get raped by humans on drugs. I rest my case.
Imagine the protoss on those very same drugs =O......
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No comments really... nerfing zealots, one of the most important protoss units, and not doing anything else to terran to compensate, even though the matchup already is imbalanced. It's ridiculous, at least for high level play. Probably not what they have in mind to balance.
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On August 28 2010 21:29 Exathor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:14 shannn wrote:On August 28 2010 21:06 DreXxiN wrote:On August 28 2010 21:03 greyfox999 wrote:On August 28 2010 21:01 DreXxiN wrote:
MAN ARCHONS ARE GONNA BE SO GOOD VS TANKS WITH ALL THOSE SHIE....Oh fuck I got EMP'd. We're gonna play this game now? OK... Good thing I used Feedback on his Ghosts with my spaced out templars! Now to kill those tanks =D Wow...really? I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons? (Which costs 2 templar by the way). Give me a break... You're gonna waste emp on archons for their shields yes but ur still forgetting how many uses archons has. The emp'ed archons means no emp on rest of army that is more vulnerable to siege tanks. HT are being made first for the purpose of storm against bio ball or feedback. After it's usage it's made to archons. So the main reason the HT's are already being made is for ghosts/bio balls. After it's done it can soak up the damage from tanks which makes in my opinion archons more viable than it currently is. You make it sound like we have to go mass archons which isn't really the case. A HT on full energy can feedback 4 times so u just need 1-2 HT max for feedback (you're not massing ghosts if u have so many tanks as I quote you:"I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons?" which can be said the same to you. Cost effective HT will be more viable against T siege tanks/ghosts/banshees/bio balls. @shann, i think what the terran guy means is that his ghost's range is superior to your HT and they can cloak... No more storms/feedback and with this I finally realized the irony of SC's basic lore: The protoss are a technologically advanced race that have aeons of knowledge and tech, and yet, they get raped by humans on drugs. I rest my case.
haha yea I thought of that too but then it comes down to timing of the push. And u'll need an observer out to scout but that isn't really necessary.
As someone else posted already, an Archon I think does take the radius of an EMP thus you can't emp all archons unless u have that many ghosts which means less tanks and an EMP'ed Archon only takes 100 damage to shield and they have 350 shields.
So like I said in my original post Archons are MORE viable compared to now against any Siege Tanks/xxxxx combo not saying they'll be OP or anything.
Edit:
And Marauder rushes will be hard to stop but only early game is affected slightly for PvT and PvZ.
We'll just have to see how things will work out but I think mid-late game Protoss have gotten more viable options against T and Z (due to their respective nerfs).
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As a zerg player, I actually think the zealot nerf is problematic. I already feel very strong when doing 10pool against toss on the smaller maps, I think toss is going to be hard pressed on steppes of war without building a full walloff from the start.
Good to see terran getting some swipes from the nerfhammer.
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On August 28 2010 21:17 Melt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 20:47 Sueco wrote:On August 28 2010 20:28 Melt wrote:On August 28 2010 20:07 Sueco wrote:
Joke aside as a Z player. I know lings, roaches, hydras, banes or (haha) ultras are NOT cost-effective against marauders at all. Look at all high-level ZvT games where Z goes ground against MM. No matter the unit composition, Zerg's only answer to marauders is to throw money at the problem, or risk an easily countered air tech switch. Tank nerfs are not a bad idead but Blizzard's love affair with marauders is just silly. Lings just rape Marauders... Hydras aswell... Mutas too, obviously. It's clear that units, that the marauder is a hard counter against, don't do too well against it  It's just absolutely untrue that any Zerg unit composition looses to marauders.. you obviously have no clue what ur talking about. Marauders damage output rarely is a problem in ZvT because you can easily get around it by not massing roaches, it's the tanking ability that matters. With good micro you can get around it though. I guess in lower divisions, they could be seen as quite imbalanced because they're not hard to micro. The only thing that really is imbalanced about marauders is their ability to snipe buildings extremely fast, otherwise they're pretty balanced. ... Trying to engage only on Creep is key.
That is what I hate with zerg now, that we are so fucking bad off-creep. On one side I like having to spread creep, on the other I really dislike the huge handicap you have off creep, and as you said, try to engage on creep is often crucial since we got so many closecombat units.
Problem is, that we have to wait till terran is ready to hit us, and giving him initiative sucks so much.
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On August 28 2010 21:36 shannn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:29 Exathor wrote:On August 28 2010 21:14 shannn wrote:On August 28 2010 21:06 DreXxiN wrote:On August 28 2010 21:03 greyfox999 wrote:On August 28 2010 21:01 DreXxiN wrote:
MAN ARCHONS ARE GONNA BE SO GOOD VS TANKS WITH ALL THOSE SHIE....Oh fuck I got EMP'd. We're gonna play this game now? OK... Good thing I used Feedback on his Ghosts with my spaced out templars! Now to kill those tanks =D Wow...really? I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons? (Which costs 2 templar by the way). Give me a break... You're gonna waste emp on archons for their shields yes but ur still forgetting how many uses archons has. The emp'ed archons means no emp on rest of army that is more vulnerable to siege tanks. HT are being made first for the purpose of storm against bio ball or feedback. After it's usage it's made to archons. So the main reason the HT's are already being made is for ghosts/bio balls. After it's done it can soak up the damage from tanks which makes in my opinion archons more viable than it currently is. You make it sound like we have to go mass archons which isn't really the case. A HT on full energy can feedback 4 times so u just need 1-2 HT max for feedback (you're not massing ghosts if u have so many tanks as I quote you:"I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons?" which can be said the same to you. Cost effective HT will be more viable against T siege tanks/ghosts/banshees/bio balls. @shann, i think what the terran guy means is that his ghost's range is superior to your HT and they can cloak... No more storms/feedback and with this I finally realized the irony of SC's basic lore: The protoss are a technologically advanced race that have aeons of knowledge and tech, and yet, they get raped by humans on drugs. I rest my case. haha yea I thought of that too but then it comes down to timing of the push. And u'll need an observer out to scout but that isn't really necessary. As someone else posted already, an Archon I think does take the radius of an EMP thus you can't emp all archons unless u have that many ghosts which means less tanks and an EMP'ed Archon only takes 100 damage to shield and they have 350 shields. So like I said in my original post Archons are MORE viable compared to now against any Siege Tanks/xxxxx combo not saying they'll be OP or anything. Edit: And Marauder rushes will be hard to stop but only early game is affected slightly for PvT and PvZ. We'll just have to see how things will work out but I think mid-late game Protoss have gotten more viable options against T and Z (due to their respective nerfs).
@ shann I completely agree that this patch ensures the viability of archons in the PvT lineup, but my concern was not with the ghosts EMPing the archons but with the ghost EMPing your templar, which THEN proceed to turn the dual-use templar/archon combo into a very, very expensive gas dump that is slow (esp after those darned marauders on drugs) and really is only good as a meatshield, albeit a very expensive one.
My proposal is that blizz HAS to move ghost academy up a tier, make it AT LEAST a factory tech (i mean, in BW it was a SCIENCE FAC tech, for crying out loud) because ghosts currently are just too good for EMPing toss and sniping zerg
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On August 28 2010 21:37 Ghad wrote:
As a zerg player, I actually think the zealot nerf is problematic. I already feel very strong when doing 10pool against toss on the smaller maps, I think toss is going to be hard pressed on steppes of war without building a full walloff from the start.
Good to see terran getting some swipes from the nerfhammer.
Some guy on another thread (sry im too lazy to search it for you) posted a calculation on 6 or 8 pool rush on steppes vs nerfed zealots, and turns out that the lings will be IN the toss base 5 secs (ingame time, so roughly 3.smth secs) before the zealot pops in both 6 and 8 pool. No doubt this WILL prove problematic for protoss, however i already vote down steppes as a toss anyway so no biggie...
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Hmm...some of the changes are really questionable and some of them are downright stupid.
Reaper - imba vs zerg early game, otherwise uselesess unit. Now it will be only useless. Cool.
Tank - that may seem like a good change, but wtf should I do vs banelings now?! The old tank could blown up more banelings at once, the new will kill...exactly one. Yep, that's great, isn't it? Retardely overpriced unit with 3 seconds delay between shots is now able to kill one baneling before the rest is in your face. Good job Blizzard. I would be fine with the nerf if they make banelings armored or lower their hitpoints. I don't have a problem with lings/hydras/zealots performing better against tanks. But banelings? Fuck this.
BC - seriously wtf? Who had problems with BCs? I guess Blizzard wants BCs to be "useful" like they were in BW. I guess it would be too much if the latest and most expensive terran unit was actually useful. Maybe in SC3.
Zealot - uh, why? I don't play toss but I really can't remember having problems with it...
Ultralisk - good direction, probably not enough, we will see. And no, that change really isn't comparable to the change made to BC. Not to mention ultralisk were actually used before the nerf lol.
Terrible patch overall, all they had to do was buff zerg early game and nerf ultralisk, but instead we got this. Maybe I'm overreacting, but better be pissed now and pleasantly surprised later than be hopefull at first and than terribly dissapointed.
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killing repairing scvs on PFs while focusing the PF, thats the buff imo
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On August 28 2010 21:42 crappen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 28 2010 21:17 Melt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 20:47 Sueco wrote:On August 28 2010 20:28 Melt wrote:On August 28 2010 20:07 Sueco wrote:
Joke aside as a Z player. I know lings, roaches, hydras, banes or (haha) ultras are NOT cost-effective against marauders at all. Look at all high-level ZvT games where Z goes ground against MM. No matter the unit composition, Zerg's only answer to marauders is to throw money at the problem, or risk an easily countered air tech switch. Tank nerfs are not a bad idead but Blizzard's love affair with marauders is just silly. Lings just rape Marauders... Hydras aswell... Mutas too, obviously. It's clear that units, that the marauder is a hard counter against, don't do too well against it It's just absolutely untrue that any Zerg unit composition looses to marauders.. you obviously have no clue what ur talking about. Marauders damage output rarely is a problem in ZvT because you can easily get around it by not massing roaches, it's the tanking ability that matters. With good micro you can get around it though. I guess in lower divisions, they could be seen as quite imbalanced because they're not hard to micro. The only thing that really is imbalanced about marauders is their ability to snipe buildings extremely fast, otherwise they're pretty balanced. ... Trying to engage only on Creep is key. That is what I hate with zerg now, that we are so fucking bad off-creep. On one side I like having to spread creep, on the other I really dislike the huge handicap you have off creep, and as you said, try to engage on creep is often crucial since we got so many closecombat units. Problem is, that we have to wait till terran is ready to hit us, and giving him initiative sucks so much.
what usualy ends happening is that while zerg is "waiting" they are also shoving expands on every corners of the map
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On August 28 2010 21:45 Exathor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:36 shannn wrote:On August 28 2010 21:29 Exathor wrote:On August 28 2010 21:14 shannn wrote:On August 28 2010 21:06 DreXxiN wrote:On August 28 2010 21:03 greyfox999 wrote:On August 28 2010 21:01 DreXxiN wrote:
MAN ARCHONS ARE GONNA BE SO GOOD VS TANKS WITH ALL THOSE SHIE....Oh fuck I got EMP'd. We're gonna play this game now? OK... Good thing I used Feedback on his Ghosts with my spaced out templars! Now to kill those tanks =D Wow...really? I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons? (Which costs 2 templar by the way). Give me a break... You're gonna waste emp on archons for their shields yes but ur still forgetting how many uses archons has. The emp'ed archons means no emp on rest of army that is more vulnerable to siege tanks. HT are being made first for the purpose of storm against bio ball or feedback. After it's usage it's made to archons. So the main reason the HT's are already being made is for ghosts/bio balls. After it's done it can soak up the damage from tanks which makes in my opinion archons more viable than it currently is. You make it sound like we have to go mass archons which isn't really the case. A HT on full energy can feedback 4 times so u just need 1-2 HT max for feedback (you're not massing ghosts if u have so many tanks as I quote you:"I mean you're going to have the gas to individually target my ghosts with feedback AND counter me with archons?" which can be said the same to you. Cost effective HT will be more viable against T siege tanks/ghosts/banshees/bio balls. @shann, i think what the terran guy means is that his ghost's range is superior to your HT and they can cloak... No more storms/feedback and with this I finally realized the irony of SC's basic lore: The protoss are a technologically advanced race that have aeons of knowledge and tech, and yet, they get raped by humans on drugs. I rest my case. haha yea I thought of that too but then it comes down to timing of the push. And u'll need an observer out to scout but that isn't really necessary. As someone else posted already, an Archon I think does take the radius of an EMP thus you can't emp all archons unless u have that many ghosts which means less tanks and an EMP'ed Archon only takes 100 damage to shield and they have 350 shields. So like I said in my original post Archons are MORE viable compared to now against any Siege Tanks/xxxxx combo not saying they'll be OP or anything. Edit: And Marauder rushes will be hard to stop but only early game is affected slightly for PvT and PvZ. We'll just have to see how things will work out but I think mid-late game Protoss have gotten more viable options against T and Z (due to their respective nerfs). @ shann I completely agree that this patch ensures the viability of archons in the PvT lineup, but my concern was not with the ghosts EMPing the archons but with the ghost EMPing your templar, which THEN proceed to turn the dual-use templar/archon combo into a very, very expensive gas dump that is slow (esp after those darned marauders on drugs) and really is only good as a meatshield, albeit a very expensive one. My proposal is that blizz HAS to move ghost academy up a tier, make it AT LEAST a factory tech (i mean, in BW it was a SCIENCE FAC tech, for crying out loud) because ghosts currently are just too good for EMPing toss and sniping zerg
I see your point and that does make it problematic. But doesn't it make it more like it currently is  means we can't be easygoing as Protoss players regarding HT's. We need to cover them correctly and use them well else it's like you said a VERY expensive gas dump.
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On August 28 2010 21:25 Melt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 21:19 Dfgj wrote:
Why are we even discussing Archons in a matchup where Ghosts are a massive key unit and EMP is a huge factor (even if we were to disregard the gas/templar cost).
That does not sound like a top-tier tactic. EMP sucks up 100 Shield (not all the shield). Archons are bigger than most units, and from what i understood, an EMP can only hit 1 Archon (its big enough to soak up the whole area of effect). So, you could either loose shield on 3 units, like 50 shield per unit, so 150 (and most of the time it will be more) or 100 on 1 Archon.
uh... you really, really underestimate the size of emp. Against packed archons you could probably hit at least 5. I've hit 8 stalkers in 1 emp before, and archons aren't really that much bigger than stalkers.
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They should have the creep bonus effect "stay" on the zerg units for like 5 seconds after they leave the creep. Like the slime takes a while to fall off or something... I think that that would help a great deal with the early game problems as well.
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Hmm...some of the changes are really questionable and some of them are downright stupid.
Reaper - imba vs zerg early game, otherwise uselesess unit. Now it will be only useless. Cool.
Zealot - uh, why? I don't play toss but I really can't remember having problems with it...
Ultralisk - good direction, probably not enough, we will see. And no, that change really isn't comparable to the change made to BC. Not to mention ultralisk were actually used before the nerf lol.
I think it is kind of obvious that you think this patch is terrible because you view it from a terran perspective. Early Reapers are too strong versus Zerg and needed to be nerfed. Same thing with early Zealot pressure, as stated by several top tier Zerg players. I agree with you about the BC changes though, i don't think they are overpowered.
I like the Patch so far, i think it goes in the right direction by nerfing certain units instead of buffing the rest, which would just create more imbalances in different matchups.
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On August 28 2010 22:04 apop wrote:
I agree with you about the BC changes though, i don't think they are overpowered.
I think the BC nerf is because going air to counter BC's isn't very easy considering Vikings and Marines will rip your air units apart.
Therefore, ground is the best way to counter without wasting a ton of money... unless you're Terran with Vikings' 9 range.
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EPT
