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Hey everyone.
I'm working on going Random for some of the icons now instead of just plain Zerg. However, I have some Terran builds down for all the races, but in the Protoss arsenal it's hard for me to decide.
Most people get Colossi against Zerg for to take out their units easier, but I feel Psi Storm works better. Now, High and Dark Templars are able to morph into Archons and although they don't have 1000 shield as they did in Starcraft 1, they're still pretty good units.
However, I feel Immortals can tank better (do not want to do math right now) and they don't have AoE damage.
I only get the Robotics Facility for (sometimes) Colossi, Warp Prisms (DT harass to Archons) or Observers.
Your thoughts?
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if you are getting stalkers, get archons. immortals are just weaker vs everything zerg will throw at stalkers, including ultralisks, archons can tank ultralisks for days.
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i don't think you understand protoss very well..where are you getting 1000 shields in BW from? immortals do bonus vs armored and archons do bonus vs biological so why don't you base your composition on that instead? you don't even need to run numbers you just need common sense...
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I personally just do zealot/templar/immortal and get archons when my templar are out of energy. You don't have to pick one or the other, they work amazing together. Archon/immortal RAPES ultras.
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They're not exclusive. Archons are very gas heavy while immortals are mineral heavy, so you can easily mass both.
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They come out of separate tech buildings, and both have completely different uses. I would try not to mass immortals vs Zerg unless they are going roach/ultra heavy.
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16956 Posts
One of the few real uses for Archons is to get them after a bad engagement with a Zerg army, your Templar have run out of energy, and you need something to stall with as you run the rest of your forces away.
Immortals aren't seen much except against Ultralisks.
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Archons is very, very good against mass muta. They also roast lings pretty hard.
They are fragile but deal insane amounts of damage.
Colossus > High Templar early game. but late game i believe high templars are better.
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I only ever get immortals vs zerg if I see ultras. I don't think of my unit composition as "what can tank his units the best?" but "what can kill his unit composition the best?"
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Neither in most situations. Immortals are (very) good against Roaches and more or less your only good response to Ultras. Archons are bad except occasionally against Mutas or Ultras, but you get them by accident when your HT's run out of energy mid-battle. More often than not the solid Protoss army compositions are Colossus+Stalker or Chargelot+HT+Stalker.
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On August 23 2010 14:39 PrinceXizor wrote:
if you are getting stalkers, get archons. immortals are just weaker vs everything zerg will throw at stalkers, including ultralisks, archons can tank ultralisks for days.
You're serious aren't you.... Immortals in decent numbers RAPE ultralisks.
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On August 23 2010 18:07 itzbrandnew wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 14:39 PrinceXizor wrote:
if you are getting stalkers, get archons. immortals are just weaker vs everything zerg will throw at stalkers, including ultralisks, archons can tank ultralisks for days. You're serious aren't you.... Immortals in decent numbers RAPE ultralisks.
immortals are good vs ultras but cant be massed as fast unless chronoed out of 2-3 robo's
however
if zerg is going roach heavy even 4-5 immortals will rape the fuck out of them
i believe someone did a test where something like 8 immortals could beat 40 roaches or something ridiculous like that
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On August 23 2010 18:10 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:07 itzbrandnew wrote:On August 23 2010 14:39 PrinceXizor wrote:
if you are getting stalkers, get archons. immortals are just weaker vs everything zerg will throw at stalkers, including ultralisks, archons can tank ultralisks for days. You're serious aren't you.... Immortals in decent numbers RAPE ultralisks. immortals are good vs ultras but cant be massed as fast unless chronoed out of 2-3 robo's however if zerg is going roach heavy even 4-5 immortals will rape the fuck out of them i believe someone did a test where something like 8 immortals could beat 40 roaches or something ridiculous like that
I have to question why he hasn't scouted the ultralisk tech and pre-emptively started making some.
Also, the argument can be made that archons can't be pumped very fast either... even 6 warpgates devoted to their production produces 3 archons in roughly the same amount of time as 3 robos make 3 immos
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Problem with immortals is the cost 250m, 100g.
It's too heavy on the minerals, cos you'll get RAPED by zerglings (ie. ultras and zerglings), if you don't have a lot of mineral heavy zealots to tank for the immortals.
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On August 23 2010 18:13 Qzy wrote:
Problem with immortals is the cost 250m, 100g.
It's too heavy on the minerals, cos you'll get RAPED by zerglings (ie. ultras and zerglings), if you don't have a lot of mineral heavy zealots to tank for the immortals.
This is a valid point
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Just get Colossi. Especially if, like you said, you normally get Robo anyway. The infrastructure is already there pretty much, I'm willing to bet your robo bay isn't constantly in use right now. Colossi are invaluable against zerglings and hydras, and I don't see any other units besides ultras giving you any grief.
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Robo with zealot/stalker meatshields is the common build for PvZ nowadays. So a transition to immortal will be more direct and smooth than a transition to Archons.
HTs are used more against Terran bioballs nowadays because the Roach has made Psi Storm quite painless to a scouting Zerg. Also, a smaller Psi Storm radius combined with the fact that Zerg is faster now on creep makes dodging psi storms relatively easier for Zerg. So colossi built from robo will be more desired. Not mentioning the fact that robo also makes observers which is a bane to Zerg creep-spreading.
Similarly, colossi are ineffective against bioballs because of stimpack and the fact that terran has powerful and cheap anti-air. Also that 111 builds are getting increasingly popular.
Archons are incredibly powerful against early Zerg because early Zerg has small range generally but they don't rape as much later when hydras start appearing because of their slow speed, large model size and low range. They are quite effective against Ultras but not as effective as immortals are because immortals deals simply insane damage to armoured units and have hardened shields. Archon splash is almost negligible when fighting Ultras.
One thing the Archon is almost specialized in is anti-muta but it is way too specialized for players to trust in building them because they simply suck against any other random unit.
Also, because Archons are difficult to actually "get", in a sense that they are made to prevent energyless HTs from being entirely useless, no one really does an "Archon" build. Archons are usually seen when HTs are used, nobody makes HTs just to merge into Archons. Archons are not considered as a real build composition but more of a salvaged version of HTs.
So the final verdict is: Archons are not viable generally but are extremely powerful in certain cases. The reason they are not built deliberately in plays is that they have too high cost and is preceded by a much more versatile unit.
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I find Archons to be an incredible late game support unit vs Zerg. A mixture of immortal/archon/colossus (around 4) and templar is very difficult for zerg to deal with once you get it running with 3-4 bases.
So a combination of archons and immortals is very strong vs late game zerg imo. With good army positioning zerg just melts.
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On August 23 2010 18:12 itzbrandnew wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 18:10 arb wrote:On August 23 2010 18:07 itzbrandnew wrote:On August 23 2010 14:39 PrinceXizor wrote:
if you are getting stalkers, get archons. immortals are just weaker vs everything zerg will throw at stalkers, including ultralisks, archons can tank ultralisks for days. You're serious aren't you.... Immortals in decent numbers RAPE ultralisks. immortals are good vs ultras but cant be massed as fast unless chronoed out of 2-3 robo's however if zerg is going roach heavy even 4-5 immortals will rape the fuck out of them i believe someone did a test where something like 8 immortals could beat 40 roaches or something ridiculous like that I have to question why he hasn't scouted the ultralisk tech and pre-emptively started making some. Also, the argument can be made that archons can't be pumped very fast either... even 6 warpgates devoted to their production produces 3 archons in roughly the same amount of time as 3 robos make 3 immos
uhhh...no O_O
Archons take like what? 17 seconds to morph? While immortals take 55 seconds (un-chrono) to build. Archons are much, much more massable than immortals and with lvl 2 upgrades, will do almost 40 damage to all Zerg units before armor. They also tank ultras a lot better because they take no bonus damage, while immortals melt as soon as the hardened shields run out (as they take bonus damage), which is generally pretty fast because ultras are always accompanied by high attack speed units (usually zerglings).
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EPT
